When Your Child's Grandparent is a Narcissist

jskinner (10) 30 May 2008 07:14 AM

My mother has NPD and I have 2 daughters, aged 12 and 10. Being a mother with a narcissistic mother has been a really frightening thing. I'm always unsure of my parenting abilities. I question everything I do and try to measure it against what my mother would do. I've been in therapy for about 18 months, which has really helped me set boundaries with my mother, but, again, I'm always questioning my ability to parent. Especially as my daughters enter the teen years and parenting becomes more challenging.

Beth McHugh (12962) 31 May 2008 12:11 AM

Hi jskinner, it's not necessarily a bad thing that you are questioning your ability as a parent. Sure, you don't have a good template to work with as a result of having a narcissistic mother, but it's the parents who don't question their parenting style that I really worry about! Many women I counsel who have had NPD mothers experience the same feelings as you. It's only natural to do so, but I am sure that you, like them, strive to give their children the love and attention they never had as children. In fact, I commonly find that in some cases the pendulum swings too far in the opposite direction, and the adult child strives too hard to "love" their children. This can result in problems also, but these are easier to deal with than the devastation of having a NPD parent. I'm sure if you are aware of your behaviors then you are in a good position to shape both your own and your children's lives. Good luck, contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if you need any further assistance.

jskinner (10) 12 Jun 2008 07:09 AM

Thank you for your comments - they are similar to what my therapist says, and my husband says, and my friends say, but I still worry. The other thing that worries me is my mother's relationship with my daughters. My grandmother is also narcissistic and I know that her narcissism is easier for me to deal with because I'm more removed from her emotionally, but my mother has had a lot more contact with my daughters than I had with my grandmother. It was about 2 years ago that I realized what was wrong with my mother and why she always made me so crazy. Until that time, my husband and I (reluctantly) allowed almost constant contact with her. I don't know what effect that will have on them. It's especially hard right now because our older daughter is 12 and is entering a very selfish stage. In fact, my husband and I often say that rather than narcissists being stuck at the 2-year-old stage of life, they are more like a 7th grader. What worries both of us is that our older daughter will not come out of this stage and will end up like my mother - selfish, demanding, and difficult to be around.

Beth McHugh (12962) 12 Jun 2008 03:52 PM

Hi jskinner, as in your own case with your grandmother, your daughters have you and your husband as a buffer between them and your narcissistic mother. Despite their frequent contact, you are the principal source of love and affection, not her. I would not classify a sufferer of NPD as stuck in the 2-year-old stage either, that is more classical Freudian theory, but would place them with the emotional and intimacy capabilities of an older child, though not as high as a 7th grader. The best you can do for your daughter who is entering the threshold of puberty is to set very clear boundaries for her and stay firm. Adolescence is a difficult time for all parents to cope with, and I would give the same advice to any parent, not just you. Because of your background, you will have a tendency to see a narcissist behind every tree, but that is normal. There is a suggestion of a genetic link in some cases of NPD, hence the need for firm boundaries. Personality disorders in general develop during adolescence and the early adult years, but you have powerful behavior-shaping tools at your disposal. Luckily you have discovered the presence of NPD in your mother, so you are aware of the behaviors. As a child of a narcissistic mother, you may also have made a resolution never to treat your own children like you were treated, and this can result in a pendulum effect, whereby you actually give your children too much "love". This can cause problems with the children, however rectifying this situation if it is present is relatively simple compared with dealing with a narcissistic mother. I hope this helps. You can always contact me for further assistance. Beth

Inga8285 (11) 20 Jul 2008 11:00 PM

This past year, at a suggestion of a friend, I looked up NPD. I discovered a lot of new things about my family. This past week I finally came to the painful and full realization that not only my father and brother are N's but my mother is actually the worst off of all. For years my father would call me and tell me my mother was crazy, I always blamed him for all the family's craziness. My parents have refused to visit my family for about 6 years now. Always lying to me and have some lame excuse. They would forget my children's birthday's , or send the traditional check and card. No thought to anything. Of course if I pointed it out, I was the bad one. Since I've been married (23 years) my husband has supported me fiercely when it came to my parents behavior toward me, in fact he reminds me that growing up in our small town, everyone thought my Dad was kind of odd, I knew that, but would never admit it because I love my parents. The stories and the history are so amazing, my friend tells me to write a book. Of course I don't think I have it in me to do that. Never the less, my eye opening came when I confronted my mother in and IM's conversation about the lack of visits. She blamed me! She said every time she visits all I do is yell at her and insult her and denigrate the family to my children. I was shocked that she would say these things when she knows I know that it is not true, not any of it. I stopped the discussion at that point. I was in shock. The past ten years, my family and I have walked on egg shells around them to avoid the insults and to avoid getting into a fight with them. I always tell the kids, if grandpa or grandma say anything strange just smile and wave. The kids being young and intelligent know the routine. The kids are great, beautiful, intelligent, well behaved. A real joy in my life.

The confusion and rage consume me when I am alone. I find keeping busy is my best bet to ward off feelings of suicide and anger. I find myself wishing them dead so that I can forget about them and move on with my life, is that normal. Or, am I the one that is really crazy?

Beth McHugh (12962) 20 Jul 2008 11:51 PM

Hi Inga, first of all, crazy people don't question themselves as to whether they are really crazy, so you can rest assured that you are definitely sane! It is great that you have a supportive husband yet sad that your parents have driven you to thoughts of suicide, or anger and rage at best. If your mother does have NPD and your father is her enabling partner, then this alone would have had a profound effect on you as both a child and an adult. Adult children of narcissists typically move through patterns of sadness and grief coupled with anger. This is normal and to be expected, so you are not losing it. Knowledge is power, so I would encourage you to read all my articles on this disorder to get a better feel for what exactly you are dealing with. If you find that you need additional help in the form of counseling, then please contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

It is possible to get out of the cycle of anger and despair, and to deal with your parents in a more controlled and powerful way.

Inga8285 (11) 22 Jul 2008 11:14 PM

I just have the hardest time wrapping myself around the idea, that someone who gave birth to me could be so cold and callous. When my first two kids were born my father would have to tell my mother to hug my kids. As I look back the affection from her was minimal, but I never realized it till I had children of my own.

My father was always my favorite, and now I understand why, although he has his issues as well. Control, demeaning etc. I was so scared growing up I hated to tell them I was sick or not feeling well, because I might get yelled at. I remember one time when I was 14 I passed out cold, fell forward on my face and split my chin and broke some teeth. I was afraid to tell my dad I didn't feel good.

Yet, she tries to talk a good game, and say she loves me and this and that, of course it is all me, she loves me so much she won't even visit me and the kids! Even when I am close to her town, she doesn't want to travel and hour or so to see the kids, and if she does, she does so begrudgingly. I just don't even want to talk to her anymore. Then when she is bad, she emails and IM's me with cute little notes, etc.

This year my daughter was diagnosed with a serious illness. She didn't even bother to call her or me to find out what was going on, how she was etc. Instead she sends my 12 year old a pamphlet with a years worth of bible reading, and that she should read it. Not, that I'm not Christian, I love God. But, a get well card would have been nice. Grandma has 11 grandkids, she knows what they are like. When I asked her later why she didn't tell my brother the Pastor to pray for her, the response was "My praying is good enough." When I told her he came 8 hours to be with her and pray, she was surprised "he did?" (He by the way is her pet, always has been. They stroke each other) I do love him though, and he does love me. Although he suffers from the same personality as Mom and Dad. In his defense I do believe he is starting to recognize it. He even apologized for having treated me like a dog when we were growing up. Again, Mom's response "he did?" She was irritated at that as well.

I'm rambling. I should buy some sessions with you and be done with it. I need my thoughts organized so I can better process them. I feel like Sybil most of the time.Thanks for your time!

Beth McHugh (12962) 22 Jul 2008 11:44 PM

Hi Inga, Your story sounds unfortunately very familiar, with some of characteristic traits of NPD certainly present. In your favor at least, you now know what you are dealing with. Knowledge is power, and although there can be much anger and grief to deal with when confronted with the fact of having to deal with a NPD parent, being in the dark and struggling against an unknown beast is a losing game. When you know what to look for, there is a recurring and predictable pattern to the behavior of a narcissist, even though they can still take your breathe away with their actions! Let me know if I can be of assistance. Good luck! Beth

rosem1111 (45) 29 Jul 2008 07:26 PM

My mother is elderly now and I too could potentially write a book about all the things she has done since I was little. I realised I was "older" than her when I was 5 years old. At 6 I decided to keep my deeper thoughts to myself and not let on to my family, including extended how "old" I really was. All my mother's family has issues. My father coped largely by being absent a lot. I was the oldest and parented my younger siblings a lot.

I learned that I could not trust her with my children when they were very little. The turning point on that one was when she left my toddler son, my oldest of four, alone in the bathroom in a tub of water. Luckily I was home too. I told her nicely that this was not a safe practice and she denied that this was true .

One time I came home where she was minding my then two children, to find my son, at 3 years, cowering in terror under the dining room table. She had suddenly flipped into raging mode and was pacing around yelling "Number 96, he's an idiot...." Turned out that 96 was on the football jersey of a neighbour's visiting adult son and who had repeatedly kept kicking a football into our yard.

Four years later came the last straw re her minding my children. I came home, baby number four in my arms, to find her flipped into rage again and this time it was focussed in white heat on my oldest daughter, then 5 years old. I came to the outside of our back gate, hidden by the high fence, to hear her non-stop haranguing of this girl as she used the trampoline. Then she realised I was at the gate and motor-mouth harangued this child to open it for me - "Go an open the gate for your mother; hurry up open it; oh you can never get anything right; blah, blah, blah..." I was really, really,shocked.

Then I went through a host of strategies to get my mother from earbashing my daughter with lethal, personalised abuse like torrents of lava. I started off thanking her nicely for looking after the children and asked her if she'd like to join me for a cup of tea. It wasn't until I got to strategy number 5 that I got her off my daughter's back and pouring that same personalised venom onto me. I, totally without meaning to and out of character, ended up telling her she had the devil in her and I ordered him to get out. She went kaboom!!!! And I got verbally attacked big time. I blocked my ears and had this image of her as a gigantic raging brown bear standing on its rear legs attacking me. Whew! It really got my adrenalin pumping.

After that, 15 years ago, I never let her mind my children again and I have had only as brief, as I can, periodic contact with her. She has not become normal, but she varies in how bad she is. But whatever happens, it is all about her, even if she acts as if she is being nice. Now that she is old, my three, now big, girls sometime ring her as a kindness. As always she talks non stop and at them. She talks "out" whatever family news or memories are currently on her mind. She is big on replaying memories and always has been. She does not interact except to check if one is LISTENING. She will not stop or agree to end the conversation. I have had to teach my girls to hang up firmly after delivering the parting cues and niceties, even if she is still talking (which you can guarantee she will be). They are very confused about her.

Beth McHugh (12962) 30 Jul 2008 05:08 PM

Hi Rosem, your mother is sounding increasingly like the traditional narcissist. Many parents worry about the effects of this type of behavior on their children but as long as you provide a relatively healthy template for your children, then the effects of this type of behavior are not so acute as her influence would have had on you as a child. Obtaining a clinical diagnosis by proxy would also be helpful to both your girls and yourself in knowing just exactly what you are dealing with. You can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com for further assistance regarding this issue. Best wishes, Beth

techman (10) 25 Nov 2008 07:14 AM

Ok, so I'm a little late to the game here. My wife and I have recently discovered that her mom and dad are both Nparents, this has been confirmed by DW's therapist. DW has cut off her father recently, he has done many horrible, and selfish things to her, and she reached a breaking point, but she does not have the same strength when it comes to her mother.

Her mother knows no boundaries, I'll summarize some of the events: 1. Was extremely rude to my DM while DW and I were moving into our new house. She clearly wanted to mark her territory by stating "I'm going to go get MY room setup now", as if it were hers.

2. Invited guests to our house without asking us several times. One of the guests is our niece, who is young, and quite frankly, out of control. Upon DW telling her she could not bring guest with her, because she didn't check with us, she told the niece that "She wasn't welcome in our house", rather than tell her that Grandma should have checked first. That's quite a head job to do on a 7yr old.

3. Has been rude to my brother while in our home, once again, trying to mark territory and assert herself as the alpha.

4. While our daughter was ill, we went to see many specialists at Hopkins to better understand and possibly treat her condition. WHen this was over DW called her mom to tell her the good news. Her moms reply was "I wish this had gone on a little longer, now I have to talk to my fiance about the wedding.". Yes, she really said that, and in my eyes, she used our daughter as a pawn in her game, not cool.

5. DW found a new job closer to home, the stress of the commute and job were too much for her, so she found something new. Upon telling her mom, she didn't get the congrats you'd expect, her mom told her "I knew you couldn't do it! I couldn't even do it, so how could you do it?". Mind you everybody else had told her how great she did, we all were building up her confidence, and then her mom knocks it down.

6. Anytime DW tells her mom that the baby met a milestone (for example, rolling over for the 1st time), her mom told her "Babies are supposed to do that".

Every bone in my body is telling me that this woman is big, big trouble, and I don't feel safe with our child in her presence, especially after she used our DD as a pawn, but DW is insistent upon seeing her. She is still scared of her mom, and what she'll do if she doesn't do what she wants. I'm getting near my wits end here. If we didn't have a child, I would just tell my wife to go see her family, without me, butn I eel I need to be there to protect our daughter. Her mom will make snide little comments towards DW, that she doesn't see as a problem, but our DD will start picking up on those soon, and I fear we're going to have problems when she does. DD needs to see DW as the alpha mom, and if she see's her own mom talking down to her, it could lead to problems. DW's therapist has helped some, but not completely as DW still asks "How High" when her DM says "Jump". Any advice is welcome.

techman (10) 25 Nov 2008 07:16 AM

I should have clarified, on #2, with the niece, it was an overnight visit.

Beth McHugh (12962) 28 Nov 2008 02:27 PM

Hi techman, your wife's therapist will be able to outline a plan of dealing with your MIL, but your wife needs to be in a place mentally where she can implement these boundaries that need to be set up if the situation is not to deteriorate further. It sounds like your wife is not ready yet to let go of her mother in an emotional sense and still has an intense need to please her, even if it upsets and frustrates her to do so. It is also important that your wife gets to the point where she wants things to change and not keep going with the status quo. All this is perfectly normal and part of the process. If your wife feels she needs additional help, she can contact me. The change really has to come from her, since it is she who is struggling with unresolved issues concerning her mother. Hopefully her current therapist can help her address these issues. Best wishes, Beth

onward (7) 17 Jan 2009 02:38 PM

I am a single mom of a 2-yr. old son and a small business owner. I have a father that demonstrates all of behaviors consistent with people with NPD. My mother is passive, but was perceived years ago as "the good parent". My relationship with my entire family has been strained since I have had my son and many very negative feelings have surfaced. I, suddenly, am trying to deal with how badly me and my sisters were treated. We were raged at, demeaned, terrorized, hit, knocked down, isolated, cursed at and baited against each other. My parents response to my confronting my mom has been to try to ostracize and shame me. My response has been to distance myself. I feel sad that my son really does not have healthy grandparents to enjoy. I currently do not call and my father (NPD) emails to catch up.

Beth McHugh (12962) 18 Jan 2009 04:42 PM

Hi Onwards, because you have spoken the truth and they cannot handle it, you have been ostrasized. Also thy will try to shame you to get you to toe the party line again so that the status quo is returned. It is sad for your son to miss out on grandparents yet you must decide whether the quality of the grandparents is worth you going back into the fold. Best wishes to you and your little boy. Beth

RescuedbyWolves (20) 07 Jun 2009 01:40 PM

Hello Beth,

I have been reading all of your excellent blogs on NPD and found them and the comments to be incredibly helpful and supportive. I have an NPD mother, grandmother and sister, and have been in and out of therapy my entire life trying to recover from the emotional abuse of my childhood. I am a new mother myself now, with two girls ages 2 and 8mos, and am discovering that old feelings I thought I had dealt with are coming up with alarming regularity now that my oldest daughter is in more social situations. I am the oldest child and the family scapegoat; I was always told that I had to set a good example, and that anything my sister did that was bad was my fault. Consequently I am realizing how often I feel the need to take ownership of situations I have no business being involved in whenever I see a child being threatened or harmed. I recognize now that I should not interfere with my friend's children, but I am having a harder time knowing where the line is with my sister's child. He is also 2 and is clearly exhibiting signs of emotional abuse. His father yells at him non-stop, and both of his parents leave him with my mother for days at a time so they can go on mini-vacations. I usually see him at the end of these vacations as my mother has about 12hrs of waking babysitting time in her before she brings him to my house and the poor child looks terrified and haunted. I do not know if I am over-identifying with my nephew. I do not know what if anything I should say to my sister to get her to stop abusing him. She understands that my mother has NPD but thinks that she is normal. When I suggested to her that she leave my nephew with her MIL instead she blew up at me. Anger is a frequent response with her, probably because she learned early on that I was the cause of our family's problems.

How much should I expose my children to my mother? How much should I do to protect my nephew and any future siblings he may have?

Beth McHugh (12962) 07 Jun 2009 05:58 PM

Hi Rescued, you can monitor your own childrens' interacions with your mother since you are in control of that situation. But bear in mind that your mother does not have the same influence over your children as she did over you -- you and your partner are an important buffer between your girls and her. Make sure you set clear boundaries in future interactions between your mother and your girls. In the case of your nephew, all you can do is give him a loving and stable aunt that he can come to when he is older and talk to. In the meantime play with him, praise and encourage him as much as possible. While you can talk to your sister about the abuse, she may not hear it. It is better if you can stay on the scene and keep an eye on him than to alienate yourself from his family. I assume the abuse is verbal, which is the easiest to hide as well as deny the effects of. Best wishes, Beth

RescuedbyWolves (20) 07 Jun 2009 07:57 PM

Thank you for your advice, Beth. Yes, it is all verbal abuse, which is what mostly was for me and my sister growing up. The only difference though is that my father although weak about standing up against my mother at least let me know he loved me and my sister. I get concerned because my BIL does not seem to have that warm side to him and instead heaps more abuse on my nephew. I will do my best to be a kind influence in my nephew's life. I do set firm boundaries with my mother, and never leave her alone with my children for more than 30mins tops, and always when I am in the same house.

I have a second question - I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease 6yrs ago and have noticed it always gets worse when stress increases in my life. I first developed symptoms as a teenager when the abuse was at its highest point. I am curious if you have anecdotal evidence of intense stress like one experiences in an abusive household causing autoimmune diseases. I ask because you have mentioned that you do quite a lot of work with NPD "survivors". Thanks again!

Beth McHugh (12962) 07 Jun 2009 08:17 PM

Yes, Rescued, any type of stress will exacerbate an autoimmune disease of any type. There is some evidence to suggest that it actually causes it if the personal is genetically susceptible. So it is important for you to nurture yourself and keep those stress levels down! Best, Beth