Should You Confront a Narcissist about their Narcissism?

MadeMad (5) 05 Sep 2008 02:55 AM

I gently suggested my wife may have copied some of her mother's ways and is now facing an acrimonious divorce where everything that never did happen is happening now! I have been having for years a 'drip drip drip...' subtle control by my wife ever so nicely suggesting everything is wrong with me through her incessant moanings about everything not going right, not happy with anything... to the end of the world. My wife was never a happy person, clingy, demanding, ... and I always thought had a lot of similarities with her more aggressive manipulating 'lady of the manor' mother who has in recent time gone absolutely potty - mad with her grandiosity, delusion, denials in the shops, restaurants and even in the streets!

I have two children boy aged 13 and girl 8-and-half, both seem normal to me, the older one was undermined in his effort to become himself now he is not wanted - felt no affection (in fact feels despised) by his mother. Both children want to be with me I was granted interim custody of the children. My daughter was taken away for a period of about 8 weeks in which my wife showed little interest in her, neglected her and 'dumped her like a dead puppy' on her grandmother who showed even less bother about her. My daughter made her escape during her communion (which her brother and I were not even invited to) and has been with me since.

It is a long story, but I have some questions: 1. Whenever my wife comes to pick up the children during their contact meetings (3 times a week) she has to pick a fight and she always deny she was doing that even seconds after having started that. There seem to be a compulsion to argue, and she seem to have the need to speak aggressively and be downright self-righteous. It is really irritating and bothers the children a lot. Is this a 'normal' behaviour of a narcissist? 2. My wife regresses to a childlike level with her mother doing same, playing 'Teddy Bears' Picnic', 'Elves and Pixies' with attendant childlike babble and squeals. They have a vocabulary of their own in any case, and while they are like 6 year olds they can snap back to being 'adults' just like that! Is regression like this 'normal'? 3. Both my wife and her mother 'mirror' each other and act out dramas of panic - each copying the verbal and physical actions of the other as if perfect mirrors! Both are very tensed, my wife is becoming more and more like her mother - even does her mother's trademark 'Huuuuuh...?!' whenever she wakes from her dreamy trance when she thought someone was speaking to her. And she copies the 'hard' aggressive posture of her mother since my wife took a turn suddenly last December, got into a mania and became a completely different person since. My wife has never really detached herself from her mother even if she had at one time acknowledged her mother was definitely narcissistic, a 'witch', 'evil'... Now it is me who has all the nasty attributes and not her 'darling mother'! Appreciate comment. 4. Though most posts here suggest problems between mothers and daughters/sons, there isn't such a thing with my wife - her mother spoils her crazy, sees no fault in my wife (nor herself!) and sides with her to even bring down her own grandchildren. My wife, althoug in court and to friends professes great love for our children hardly cares about them when they are together. It is as if they are strangers to her and the chldren feel the same of her. My MIL help pays for the divorce proceeding though claims to her son she 'wasn't involved'. My wife pleas poverty though she has plenty of money - and now refuse to help pay for our son's private school. 5. The father tags along when my wife and her mother play 'grand ladies', shout and yell at him, blame him for everything, order him around... he just says 'Yes, Darling...' in a trance-like manner (for a highly-educated soul!). Only when his own interest is threatened in which case he would go on a yelling match with his wife, he doesn't care much about the destruction his wife wreaks all over. His son says a psychiatrist friend thinks the father has BPD... It appears that when the threesome of mother daughter and father get together it is back to childhood - '1964' as my brother-in-law likes to put it (he steers clear of them and is highly critical of his sister abandoning her children and returning to the 'worse there i' - to their mother!)

Sorry to be so lengthy, Beth, it is a desperate situation - I am in London, but I would like to hear from you and others here.

Beth McHugh (13211) 05 Sep 2008 05:46 PM

Hi MadeMad, I really don't have the scope in this forum to deal with all the issues you have raised, and it is possible that you are not dealing with narcissistic personality disorder here. Please feel free to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if you would like personalized counseling regarding this matter. Best wishes, Beth

treehugger (5) 17 Sep 2008 10:03 AM

Hi Beth, Suffice to say my future mother in law is NPD no question about it. my fiance saving grace was leaving home at 17 to attend College and moving to the west coast. he's dealt with her tantrums ,bullying and all the ugly stuff long distance his whole life his brother is her total slave and has lived with her almost all his life he is lost with no sense of SELF.It really has had little effect in our lives till she moved and landed in our part of the world where she's buying a house two blocks away from our new home we only moved in a month ago. she told his brother that he cant live with her anymore yet she has him here doing all her bidding. he's another painfull story and I wont go there now. but he too is now in our lives. what can we do with this selfish demanding woman? my sweetheart told her when she wanted him to see the house that he she was moving to close ,and for one hour she ranted and turned it all back at him. saying she wont bother us . He's trying to set up boundaries stop the 6.30 morning phone calls etc but its having a terrible effect .She is polite to me and comes bearing gifts when she calls in. But I see deep into her heart and its empty the smiling face is false to the core. I believe that this is an opportunity for my fiance to stand in his own power yet it smacks him in the face every turn. I ask myself what am I supposed to learn from this woman.Compassion ,as she wreaks everyone close to her. If NPD means she can never take responsibility for her behaviour what can be done? How best to handle her? I would appreciate your input.

Beth McHugh (13211) 17 Sep 2008 03:50 PM

Hi treehugger, the first thing that will help is to educate yourself as best you can about NPD. If you haven't already done so, you might like to have a read of the rest of my articles on NPD. Having a good understanding of the disorder does enable you to be able to step back a little from some of the outrageous demands and behaviors. However, do not expect yourself to be able to successfully deal with a narcissistic on every occasion -- no-one can. However, you can learn ways to minimize their impact on your lives but you will also need to look at the cracks in your own personality where they will target and get to you. By cracks, I do not mean personality flaws, I mean things like gentleness and caring -- good qualities that the narcissist will exploit if you let them. It is realistic to say that your MIL will never take responsibility for her own behaviors but that does not mean that you have to tolerate them. Setting and keeping boundaries is essential but can be difficult to establish without the clear understanding of exactly what you are dealing with here. It is also important that you and your fiance stand together on this issue -- being the blood relative, your fiance may find it more difficult than you to set boundaries. If you would like additional assistance you can always contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com as each case is so individualized. What you can learn from this lady is your own strengths and weaknesses, the "weaknesses" in your case being entry routes through which you can be manipulated. If you can learn to withstand this woman, you will be able to withstand anyone! Best wishes, Beth

livinginitaly (7) 06 Dec 2008 04:09 AM

I think, from reading your articles, I might be suffering from severe pms. That being said I wanted to ask for your advice about my husband. He is Italian, born and raised in Italy, and it is where we are currently living. His mother is typical Italian and waits on him and his brothers like she is a servant. My husband has never said to me that he expects that from me, but rather says he is independantly able to care for himself. Yet, if I don't cook and clean or stay busy at home after working all day, he criticizes me and my womanhood, my mother and sister (whom he knows doesn't keep house at all). If I buy him presents they are never things he really wanted. He tells me that I dress in rags, and sometimes refuses to go out in public with me if I am dressed in jeans and sneakers. He can be verbally abusive but tell me I shouldn't take offense because it is the truth. He's not like this all the time, maybe 20% of the time. But when he is like that it's really difficult for me to deal with, and really I don't know how to deal with it. I am at a point in my life where I am asking myself if I am "crazy" because I get so crushed with the words he speaks to me. Also, even though he kisses me alot, I don't really feel an emotional connection from him. I rarely feel like he's expressing his love to demonstrate it to me, but instead because it's something he wanted. I was reading your article about sex and depression, and I really felt like it pertained to me. I crave sex from him because it's when I feel intimate with him, yet he rarely wants to do it. I am not sure if he's narcisstic or if it's cultural, or if it's my emotions? Thank you

spirit333 (5) 15 Dec 2008 05:47 AM

After reading your article on NPD I can stop trying to analyse the behaviour of my daughter's father after all these years! I also read an article on Histrionic PD and can see how they can both intertwine. Everything you mention is right on the ball, I am astounded and somewhat relieved. This man is 45 years of age and his third marriage is ending, instigated by himself however trying to twist it around so it appears to be the wife's doing. He has constantly had affairs through all marriages and during this last one he has become violent whereby he had his wife bailed up in a corner with his hand around her throat (which left bruises) He has been violent once before when a defacto relationship was ending (the woman instigated the breakup). Both these women had and have no family close by and only limited friends. Can you tell me if violence falls under NPF and HPD or is this bordering on another disorder also?

Beth McHugh (13211) 31 Dec 2008 09:27 PM

Hi Spirit, HPD is most usually applied to females although it doesn't mean that men cannot suffer from it. The violence directed at others is most likely associated with NPD, rather than HPD, the pain of which is ultimately directed inwards. I'm glad that the articles were of help to you. Understanding the situation you are in is the first step in freeing yourself from the web of manipulation that these disorders generate. Best wishes, Beth

Bewildered (6) 04 Jan 2009 08:07 AM

I believe that my daughter-in-law suffers from NPD. My observations started early in my son's relationship. Every family outing with our family (my family includes my husband, son, and daughter), had instances of sulking, pouting, and efforts to escape from any family activity. She has chosen to make sure it is obvious that she doesn't like our dog, our vacations, our home, our entertaining, our vacation spots, etc. She projects things onto me that I never even think about. She shows jealousy of others and believes others are jealous of her. I am literally afraid to be myself -- any comment is somehow turned into some kind of affront. She is an over achiever and is very talented, but has alienated my son's friends -- except ones that feed her need for admiration. My daughter and I console ourselves by the fact that EVERYONE notices this behavior.

DIL is only happy when she is the entertainer and enjoys being the center of attention. She has successfully made any gatherings with our family (or his friends)such a struggle for my son (we see her sulking under his shoulder and him consoling, but noone is ever able to tell us what we did), that my son keeps his distance. I know he has tried -- but cannot see this clearly. He did express to me early on that he believed she needed anger management counseling -- this was VERY early when she was just developing the control. I never said a thing other than asking why she is so uncomfortable with our family. He went into some explanation about her terrible childhood and how her mother never really paid any attention to her and her father doesn't seem to think much of her achievements. I wanted him to make his own mind up so I never said anything. I had hoped he finally realize this was too much to deal with because the behavior was front and center from the time they first started dating. Their wedding was a full blown event with the most expensive location, photographer, honeymoon etc. Her family (divorced with an over achieving mom and not so successful dad) could not afford so my son approached us with a list and asked what we would pay for. I had suspected and have confirmed that they lied and said to her parents that they had saved and paid for what we actually paid for (open bar, live band). We do not have one picture of our son with us at his wedding.

We are "told" exactly what we should do. We were "told" where the rehearsal dinner would be, etc. Somehow since we are invited to their blown out events where we all need to praise, praise, praise -- they question how we could feel they are not making such grand efforts to make us feel included. However, at our home it is quite the opposite. They will show up late, make it clear they are there for obligation purposes, and leave as quickly as possible. There is never a time that they just visit to "enjoy" being with us. Anything that might make us (especially me -- the Mom) feel good is nixed (i.e., I'm not allowed to speak about my job (something I am proud of), a big event that I was in charge of was not enjoyed because DIL felt she was overdressed and left in tears,). My concern is what this does to my family. My husband will stick his head in the sand and do anything he needs to have a relationship with my son. My daughter is determined to have her brother part of her life, but leaves most vistis with DIL with an inadequate feeling (always sly in the delivery, but definitely there). I feel that my best defense is to stay away, but since they are pregnant with their first child, that means my relationship there will be minimal. I worry alot about the grandchildren. If this person was anyone other than part of my family, my definite approach would be to stay as far away as possible. Since that would mean no relationship with my son -- AND most likely would cause problems with my daughter and husband -- what can I do??

Beth McHugh (13211) 15 Jan 2009 05:33 PM

Hi Bewildered, unfortunately there is not a lot you can do. Although your DIL affects the extended family, it is the marriage that is the focal point and until your son decides for himself that he oes not like the way hos wife is behaving there is not much you can do. The power lies with him. You husband and daughter have also made ther decisions too. You must be feelings very lonely in all this and frustrated. While you cannot do much at her functions, you can still set firm boundaries for behaviors in your own home. However there is thin line as to how much you can say to your son as his firs response will be to turn on you and defend his choice of wife. He needs to do that for his ego's sake. Time may change the situation plus you need to be in contact so as to see your grandchild. Support your son as much as you can, he will need it if she truly does have a full blown case of NPD.

BonVoyageDC (5) 16 Apr 2009 11:01 AM

Thank you for the article. After (another) large blowout with my Dad I started searching online for what might cause his nasty behavior, and to see if his behavior is normal. At 24 I think I've just found that he has a classic case of NPD. My outlook on life (and my sense of self) seems to be co-narcissistic (I doubt myself, I often think that I am worthless, I always think I am selfish). This has been very relieving for me to think about. I have purchased a few books and have been reading about how I can change my own behavior to reduce the amount of pain my father can inflict. However, my question for you is slightly different. I recently became engaged to a wonderful man - and after reading all of this, I am terrified that I am narcissistic, or will become so. Do you have any advice on how to tell if, as a child of a narcissist, you are a narcissist? Also, do you have any information on how to prevent this/treat it if it's happening? I am terrified of destroying my new marriage, and terrified of treating my children the way I've been treated. Any help would be wonderful. Thanks again for your great articles on NPD.

Beth McHugh (13211) 16 Apr 2009 06:15 PM

Hi Bon Voyage, many adult children of narcissists believe that they are narcissists too. For a variety of reasons, his thinking is common. However I always reassure clients that if they think they are a narcissist, then they definitely are not one! NPD sufferers are not capable of the insight involved to question whether they have narcissism or not. Best wishes, Beth

Jtmur1 (13) 23 Jun 2009 05:15 AM

Hi Beth, I believe my sister has NPD and for as long as I can remember I've had to watch out as she is a master at recruiting people's sympathy when she believes she's been wronged and then engages in a campaign of as much emotional destruction upon the perpetrator as possible, especially through the 3rd parties she's engaged- particularly family members if she can. she is conscienceless.

She has become worse and worse in the 23 years since our parents both died of cancer when we were teens and for the most part I've managed the 'dance' of avoiding being too involved but still in basic contact until recently. I always under pressure to do this for my wider family who love us both.

She is capable of extreme behaviour when feeling threatened: emptying out the house of her 1st husband she was leaving on the day of his grandmother's funeral, running over my foot with her car, lying about worthless items that she witnessed my mother giving to me before she died that resulted in them being split (ie plastic rosary beads) in what seemed an attempt to make sure i didn't have more than her.

I've watched her bully her children and yet do nothing when they bully other children, I've watched her 2nd husband change from standing up to her to being so worn down he simply ignores her and lets her have her own way. But her most extreme recent behaviour has been over the last 2 years. when my IVF daughter was 6 weeks old, my husband suffered a near-fatal heart attack and had open heart surgery. I was separated from my daughter 12-14 hours a day to be with my husband and it was a most errible and scary time to see him suffer and have to face being a widow and single mother. We were living in my sister's unit (only as a last resort) for 2 months while my daughter was born and we settled our new house and she insisted that new renters come through the unit when my husband was just home from hospital. the only way to get her to back off was to pay her an extra 3 weeks rent so my husband wouldn't be disturbed for the 4 days he was home before I moved us into our new house. His recovery depended on it but her convenience had to come 1st and I thought I was going to have my own heart attack from the relentless pressure she applied. I had very little to do with her after that but kept in touch as I feared (as i still do) for my niece and nephew.

Was very relieved when her husband was posted to Adelaide where the rest of our family are until we visited last august and I organised a small gathering for my baby girl's 1st birthday. It was just cake and coffee but it was special as she wasn't supposed to live and it was a momentous milestone to the 3 of us and all we had gone through to have her. My sister tried to take over the arrangements and I heard from other family members that she had started telling them it would be at her place instead of the arrangements I had made at a local cafe. Events at her house over the years have been exercises in being nice to the rest of the family and snapping/ screeching at/ bullying her husband or myself so I rang her and told her that I'd made my own arrangements and it would not be at her house. then the hysterics began and they are still going.

She refused to come and stopped her husband and children from attending. Since then she's been recruiting whoever will listen to her 'side'. Despite me losing an IVF baby since and the stress of 6 subsequent months on IVF to now be pregnant again she has maintained this campaign against me and luckily most of my family do not buy into it but some are easily lead and it makes visiting very difficult. I've had to cut off contact with her as it's become clear that it will never end, not even in life/ death situations. I will contact her to get the children together but don't expect anything to come from this as she'll use this to further her own ends and in standing my ground it means my 2 yr old daughter will likely miss out on her cousins.

This tears at my conscience but I cannot be held to ransom by her anymore for everyone else's sake and 40 can now handle better what 20 could not. It just makes me very sad and I do feel rage for all the crap I 'took' and ignored for the greater good of my wider family.

I wish I had done this 20 years ago. I'm planning some counselling to help me deal with my anger that has finally surfaced.......do you have any other suggestions for me to deal with her?

realdeal (5) 23 Jun 2009 09:23 AM

I just found out my "boyfriend" who has NPD joined an online adult site three weeks after we met with the intent to find live sex or "a discreet relationship." Of course I'm devastated. I've had a suspicion since the beginning that he was a sex addict. He's been diligent about convincing me he's trustworthy because I've caught him in a lie already. He's said for months he would never cheat, look at porn online and the I was "the only one" and he never "wanted anyone else."

My dilemma - the relationship is over, no doubt. He's out of town and I've already taken my belongings out of his place. I want to confront him through email about my discovery. I found out about this because I was looking through his email so he's going to rage. I just want him to go away with no problems, no repercussions (him bad mouthing me to colleagues). I've composed an email saying no contact, stay away, I haven't and won't send the incriminating evidence to everyone he knows as long as he respects those wishes and doesn't talk about me to anyone.

I guess the apprehension is him coming after me. He's never hurt me but I've seen one rage and it wasn't nice. He's afraid of my ex boyfriend (who is happily NOT an N and is super supportive) so that will probably never happen but do N's get uncharacteristically violent when confronted?

Any insight to this would be appreciated. What a wild ride. I'm changed forever because of him.

Beth McHugh (13211) 23 Jun 2009 07:17 PM

Hi Real Deal, NPDs are no more physically violent than so-called "normal" people. In fact, as they have a self reputation to uphold they m, on average, be slightly les so. However, each person is an individual, even NPs so I cannot say for certain. Have you tried just ignoring him? He may go away without a scene but if you you do actually tell him to go away, you have to expect some reaction because that would harm his fragile sense of self. Best wishes, Beth

Jtmur1 (13) 23 Jun 2009 08:39 PM

Hi Beth, I submitted a lengthy comment yesterday re taking action with a NPD sister. the fallout is ramping up with various members of my family phoning to pressure me to make up with her. I expected this might happen and have told them that I am not including them and it is between my sister and myself and they need to stay out. I know this will continue and it will probably get to the point where we can't visit as my sister continues with her tears and stories, as it has in the past. Any advice on anything else I can do besides keep silent and not involve other people?

Beth McHugh (13211) 28 Jun 2009 11:16 PM

Hi JT Mur, try to keep the issue between you and your sister and remind others that it is between you and your sister. Try your best to refuse to be drawn into conversation with others and use the broken record technique to achieve this. Most of all, do what your heart tells you in how you deal with your sister. Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 22 Oct 2009 05:25 PM

Just a reminder to all readers of the narcissism blogs that I have set up a forum specifically for adult children of NPDs. You can find it under "Forums" at my website at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Best wishes, Beth