Escaping the Trap of the Narcissistic Mother

Judi1949 (15) 17 Aug 2007 01:25 PM

Thanks you for this article. I am 58 woman and just coming to the acceptance that my mother has NPD confirmed by my counselor. The empty hole you describe is so true. That empty hole right now is drained of hope and filled with hurt and anger at the destruction and splitting that she has caused an entire family. What I would appreciate is some tips on how to manage this relationship with my 83 year old mother while I am working through this hurt and anger. I have no desire to be around her but simultaneously feel very guilty that she is facing some surgery. Is is beneficial to set some limits and let her know what those limits will be? I have been her advocate related to her medical affairs but she recently removed me as health care proxy and designated a distant relative in one of her tantrums, which is a recipe for more problems ahead. Comments from those who have been through it are greatly appreciated. I look forward to the aging NPD article.

Beth McHugh (13211) 17 Aug 2007 04:17 PM

Hi Judi, No doubt you have read Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother, where several readers have commented on their experiences with a narcissistic parent. Has your counselor discussed setting boundaries with your mother to protect yourself? Setting boundaries will give you a sense of power and control which will in turn lower your anger levels. While your anger is more than justified, it is damaging to your mind and body, not your mother's, and this is not what we want! As your mother has changed advocates recently, I would suggest that you let her deal with the consequences of this decision. I totally understand the moral dilemma you are in regarding your mother's age and health versus her narcissism. If you would like specialized help in this area you are welcome to consult me personally by clicking on my name above. Best wishes, Beth

Judi1949 (15) 18 Aug 2007 12:15 PM

Thank you for those supportive words and limit setting ideas. I moved back close to my family 10 years ago to try and reconcile my relationship with my mother before she died and siblings - only to recently acknowledge that it will never happen with any of them due to such long term destruction. I see my counselor once a month due to insurance limitation so I'm getting support and ideas from friends and sites like this one. I know the anger and sadness is destructive to me as well as my husband and children, who just don't understand the degree of emotional destruction, sibling splitting, and poor coping skills this mental illness has caused my 3 sisters and I. For those of you struggling with the same, one limit setting tactic I have decided to use is to write my mother an upbeat newsy monthly letter to avoid verbal contact but still maintain some contact.

Beth McHugh (13211) 18 Aug 2007 04:53 PM

Hi Judi, Writing a regular newsletter to your mother is an excellent way of treading that fine line between being humane and being abused. For adult children living at a distance this is a great way of maintaining control over the situation. For those who must have regular contact with an aging narcissist, I will be writing soon about maintaining healthy boundaries and coping with narcissistic rage.

MarriageMax (10) 17 Jan 2008 01:39 PM

There are some parents that can’t understand that their acts, their behavior affects their children too. I think is not Elinor who really need assistance. I think she should talk with her mother so they both can go… maybe they would be able to talk about their problems without fighting.

Beth McHugh (13211) 17 Jan 2008 02:34 PM

The problem with narcissists is that they do not respond to logic, and exist in a world of their own creation that is not always in touch with reality when it comes to dealing with other people. That is why it is so difficult to communicate with them, let alone have a meaningful relationship with them. Having one as a parent can be extremely difficult.

Stillsuffering (10) 18 Aug 2008 05:00 AM

Whilst reading this blog and the other one "dealing with a narcissistic mother", I have found myself hyperventilating and becoming dizzy. So much of what I have read is true for me also. My mother is 83, her narcissism has got much worse recently and this worsening has finally led me to acknowledge what the real problem is. I am severely damaged by my upbringing. Depression, anxiety, panic attacks - and worst of all, alcoholism. This led to me losing custody of my own daughter to my ex husband and this has been the biggest tragedy of my life. My mother lives in the same house as my present husband and I. She has lived with us for 10 years. She is completely selfish, attention-seeking, demanding, manipulative, nasty, complaining, critical, jealous and dramatic. Boy, does she know how to send me on guilt trips. I no longer suffer from alcoholism, I have been a Christian for 16 years, and this has saved my life in more ways than one. However, my mother likes to remind me of 'how much she had to help me in the past'. It doesn't matter how much I do for her, it's never enough. She complains "no-one cares about me". She "dry cries". She cannot bear to be corrected on anything, she's always in the right. If anyone does have the audacity to correct her, she says "why do people treat me as if I'm stupid?" She blames other people for absolutely every little thing that isn't to her absolute satisfaction. She reads the tabloid newspapers and then repeats what they say as if it were absolute truth. She passes on malicious gossip as if it were true, and if she's corrected she blows a fuse. She says nasty things about my husband behind his back, despite the fact that he has been incredibly good to her. I have a brother who is a complete and utter wastrel, but according to my mother he can do no wrong. Is this a common theme? Are narcissistic mothers nicer to their sons? Also my mother is sickeningly flirtatious. She always has needed a man in her life. My father dies when I was 12 and she left home when I was 14 to live with another man, leaving me alone. Enough, I've written enough. I'm coming to terms with it slowly. At last I can see what's really going on here. I'm grateful for websites like this that allow us to share our common experiences.

Beth McHugh (13211) 19 Aug 2008 11:17 PM

Hi Stillsuffering, I'm glad my article was able to help you, you might also like to look at the articles on dealing with the aging narcissist if you haven't already done so. No, narcissistic mothers don't favor their sons, but it is not uncommon for them to idealize one child and demonize the other. It is the one who does most for them who will be demonized, while the other gets away with everything. This aspect is not exclusive to NPD however, but often seems to come along for the ride just to make your life even more frustrating and difficult! Because your mother lives with you, it is important for your mental wellbeing to be able to set and keep healthy boudaries with your mother, something that is extremely difficult to do with a narcissist but important for you to learn for sanity's sake. Your mother's behaviors sound highly manipulative and self-absorbed and, unless one has experience in dealing with narcissists, it is very difficult for others to understand the constant demands and the emotional roller coaster associated with dealing with them. You are welcome to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if you need additional help in dealing with this emotionally exhausting and thankless situation. Best wishes, Beth

Stillsuffering (10) 21 Aug 2008 09:45 AM

Thanks Beth. Just to know that others understand what I'm going through helps a lot. My mother is charming to other people and when I try to explain my feelings, they just don't "get it". The reason why I allow her to live with us is this - when she dies I want to be able to say "I did everything I could, I have no reason to blame myself, she's gone and I'm free." I strongly feel that in this way good will overcome evil, otherwise I might end up on a lifelong guilt trip. In the past few days I have managed to change my behaviour with her. I have stopped patting her on the back and saying "there, there". I am stating truthfully to her what I think the situation actually is. I told her she was crying but there were no tears and I commented on how strange that was. She was taken aback at that. I also told her that I saw no evidence of her being depressed. When she said that she thought she ought to leave and go somewhere else, I replied calmly that if she was going to be happier somewhere else then she should go. Of course this had no effect on her, but it had a huge effect on me. I stopped living in a victim mentality. Strange how just reading this website has helped me onwards in the healing process. I want to thank you most sincerely for your help and concern.

Beth McHugh (13211) 21 Aug 2008 08:48 PM

Hi Stillsuffering, it's great that you are starting to change your behaviors towards your mother and are moving towards a more empowering place. She will soon work out what is going on and will crank up the passive-aggressive behavior, and may even develop additional medical symptoms in order to gain the attention she needs. Her ability to be charming to others makes it particularly difficult for you as you will then be seen as the "bad" one. There isn't much you can do about it except expect it. The one comfort you can draw from this is that it shows she does have control over the way she treats people when it suits her. Unfortunately you would b seen by her as her extension, her slave and her servant. In your efforts to manage your actions and beliefs about your mother, you may like to aim for a place where you feel comfortable whether she lives with you or not. I understand the thinking behind the wanting to do all you can for your mother, but you must guard carefully that it is not at the expense of your health, your marriage or your children's wellbeing. Some things are just not worth doing for duty's sake. Only you know when enough is enough but feeling that you have a choice in that matter is what a therapist would assist you to work towards, as having a choice reduces the stress of the situation enormously . Good luck! Beth

coming_to_terms (5) 26 Aug 2008 06:14 AM

First, I want to thank everyone who has shared their stories here. It greatly helps to know that my suspicions about my mother have not been unjustified. My mom was left behind by her father and mother at her grandmother's house when she was an infant. I've asked her about the exact age she was when she was taken there by her mother but she doesn't know for sure and most of her aunts and uncles who took on the task of raising her are now gone and both my great grandmother and grandmother are no longer with us to give us details. I suspect this abandonment had a lot to do with how my mother behaved when it came time to raise her own children. My mother and father met when they were in grade school. Sadly, my father never escaped his own family history of alcohol abuse and violence and died of complications of alcoholism and nicotine addiction three years ago. They had been divorced since I was 11. I am now 38. I grew up with a brother who is about to turn 40. And my life in that house after my father left was a nightmare. My brother most definitely has NPD. I always told my mom that I thought he was 'crazy'. I couldn't put my finger on exactly how I knew this except to accept that something in that kid wasn't right from birth. On one of many occasions when he has lost his set of keys (mom worked so after school we'd have to let ourselves in), he had asked to borrow my set at school and told me he'd be home before me so no worries. Well, I waited for him outside for about three hours. When he finally came home, I demanded to have my keys back. I didn't want a repeat of that afternoon. I stood up to him only to get the beating of my life. I was a small-framed girl and he was a fit and athletic boy. I was about 15. I remember between blows to my back grabbing the phone and reaching my mother at work and begging her to come help me. That is how my brother was to me. Whenever he needed something - money, keys, t-shirts, or anything else I had that was of use to him, he'd take it as if he were entitled to it. Punching me in the head or wherever was most reachable at the moment, became his response when I would stand up to him. And where was my mother in all this? Now, after 38 years I finally know where: absorbed in her own little world.

I've had the creeping suspicion since my father's death that my mother is an NPD as well. The reason that I couldn't recognize this before I suspect was because, whenever I came home, all we would do was talk about how my father's alcoholism affected me. Towards his last few years, I limited contact with him because watching him self-destruct was too painful. All along, my mother was using this situation, I now believe, to solidify her unhealthy enmeshment with me. I have read elsewhere in this blog that an NPD will identify your weakness and use it to her advantage. My mother used emotions with me. With my brother, she uses money. It wasn't until last Thanksgiving that we spent at my brother's house - yes, I still try to keep some semblance of a relationship with these people! - that I saw her at her game. I had an opportunity to witness how she, after badmouthing my brother and sister-in-law constantly to me, was preying on their weaknesses and getting anything she could get out of them. With my sister-in-law, she exploits her desire to please and so she'll constantly make demands and expect to be served. I had already given her the nickname "Princess" but after what I saw, I'm thinking of her more as a "Tyrant". What brought chills to my spine was the ease with which she exploits and the lack of scruples about it she displays. And, then, I started to think about how she may be badmouthing me to them and then to my face pretend to be sensitive, nurturing mother because that way I'll remain loyal to her and feed her ego. It was a scene right out of a thriller movie when you realize the killer is the person next to you in an empty house.

My mother left two days ago after a week-long visit. I live in New York City in a studio apartment about 300 square feet. No one who'd come in here would think of imposing on me in that way. Basically, she took over my one room space and for that week I had no privacy. Neither did I have warm, heart-to-heart talks with mom. No, she was here because she wants to be able to go back to her friends and tell them about her vacation in New York. The last straw came after she met my current boyfriend. I hadn't had a significant relationship in 5 years. This one I accomplished by slowly cutting her off emotionally. Her pattern of emotional sabotage and bad advice had to come to an end in order for me to become my own person and, finally, I feel there's light at the end of the tunnel. My current boyfriend is nothing like the men that I would get involved with before. The last long-term 5 years ago was an alcoholic. I thought that when my mother met him and saw us interact - we are very kind, respectful and loving to one another - she'd be thrilled for me. Well, her repeated comments to me were "I'm not worried about him. I'm worried about you. You get bored. You're too harsh on people. He's sensitive LIKE ME and you need to watch that you don't scare him away. WE sensitive people tend to become depressed if people are too harsh on US." You see, it's about her. Everything since I can remember in my romantic life has been about her. I remember being in the seventh grade and coming back from sleep away camp excited with news about a boy I'd met and how we'd promised to write each other letters during the school year only to have her interject and start filling me in on details about HER "boyfriend" and how in love SHE was. This was only a couple of years since my parents' divorce and I didn't even know that she was "out there" seeing other men. This was no way to find out.

So, slowly and with great horror, I'm beginning to accept that this is not going to change, that I have to continue to "phase her out" emotionally and that, if I really want my personal life to thrive, she can not be privy to any details because she'll just use them to undermine my confidence and turn the attention back to her. She's sick. I know this intellectually. There's just an emotional grieving that gets triggered with this knowledge that I am now trying to deal with.

Beth McHugh (13211) 28 Aug 2008 04:33 AM

Hi coming to terms, sadly no, it is not going to change. There is great freedom in this knowledge, but before the freedom comes the necessary grieving and the anger as you move through the stages of giving up hope of ever getting the mother you want and deserve. You have made a great start in realizing this intellectually, now comes the work of dealing with it emotionally. I would encourage you and others with narcissistic mothers to journal your thoughts and feelings, this serves to get the pain out of your head and onto paper where great insights can be made. If you get stuck in any stage of the releasing process you can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com Best wishes, Beth

julibeth (20) 29 Aug 2008 03:30 PM

This has been so useful for me. I am 57 and only in the last few years have I realized that I am not the bad person I always assumed I was. My mother (now 83) lost her own mother when she was not quite 2 and I think that like many small children she thought it was her fault. No one (7 children and father lost in grief) ever talked about the mother. I think she internalised feelings that she must be a terrible person and then projected them onto me. I am an only child and have had a lifetime of all the things the others have described. Criticism, towering rages over imagined offences or slights, everything that ever went wrong was my fault, jealousy, manipulation, you name it. She made my and my father's lives utterly miserable, and yet to the outside world she was so charming. She praised us both to the skies to other people, but when the door was shut, we were subject to torrents of abuse. We never discussed it. If only my father had ever said that I wasn't responsible for her, that it wasn't normal, it would have helped so much, but he would scuttle off to his club and leave me to cope with whatever mood she happened to be in. I remember saying to him when I was about 14 that I must be a reincarnation of her mother as I felt so responsible for her. Instead of telling me not to be so ridiculous and it wasn't my job to be responsible he just said yes perhaps you are. My problem is that he died 4 years ago, and I am all she has left. I felt really sorry for her and wanted to support her until she got her life back on track and so have been visiting her every fortnight for 4 years - a round trip of 100 miles. She won't think of leaving the house and moving closer because it is "full of such happy memories" (ha ha). Her circle of acquaintances (she doesn't do friends) is practically non existent, and she "can't be bothered" to make any sort of life for herself. She is quite nice to me now, but implies that I should be doing more - " a daughter's duty" - notwithstanding the fact that the only time I ever asked her for anything i.e. to help me with my baby when I was ill, she point blank refused, had a tantrum because I had even thought of such a thing, and sulked for a week. So I am very resentful that I feel I have to keep going. I want to reduce it to once a month, but is that wrong? I'm 57 and I still feel that awful sense of obligation and responsibility to someone who thinks I'm a cardboard cut out solely there for her convenience. Because of my upbringing, I have no sense of boundaries and I feel guilty for trying to justify not doing more for her. I suppose although I have no love for her, I feel sorry for her because she's old and depressed and has no life. But the resentment is eating me up.

Beth McHugh (13211) 29 Aug 2008 04:26 PM

Hi julibeth, this is a difficult problem that many adult children of narcissists experience and it's compounded by the fact that, as an only child, you have no-one to share the burden of your mother's care and behaviors with. Seeing your mother once a month is perfectly fine if that is what you want. For that matter, seeing her once every six months is also ok. The problem is that having both a compassionate nature and weak boundaries will make it hard for your to change the pattern you are in, especially as mum is wanting more. Have you read my articles on the aging narcissist? You may find them helpful to your situation. It is important for your emotional wellbeing that you learn to set firm boundaries with your mother as your resentment will build over time. Also the process of saying goodbye to the possibility of ever having the mother you always wanted and deserved will bring up feelings of sadness and anger, but this is a necessary process in order to detach enough to set and maintain boundaries without the stress of the guilt that otherwise comes along for the ride. If you would like help in dealing with the situation you can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com Best wishes, Beth

julibeth (20) 01 Sep 2008 12:37 PM

Beth, thank you for all the articles and your answer. I think something is beginning to change in me - the feeling of not being alone and that it is an illness with symptoms is very helpful. What has been so difficult has been that belief, fostered by her from childhood that all her anger was because I didn't come up to scratch and even as an adult, I have always been checking myself to see whether I have been selfish or thoughtless or whatever she's accused me of. Of course feeling as I do towards her, I have thought, oh yes she's right, I am at fault, therefore she is justified in her reaction. But I am beginning to realize that I have the right not to love her and not to stultify my own life by giving in to her manipulation. Making boundaries is not going to be easy after so long, but I will try!

Beth McHugh (13211) 01 Sep 2008 03:41 PM

Hi julibeth, yes you do have the right not to love your mother. Society has us believe that we must love our mothers, but that would imply that all mothers are lovable, and that is clearly not always the case. Now that your beliefs are starting to change, you will be able to commence a new journey of believing in what you know to be true, not what your mother has imposed on you. Good Luck! Beth

epiphany1 (10) 05 Sep 2008 12:07 PM

This article is rather old and I don't know if anyone is still reading it,, let alone blogging, but, I have been surfing the net today to try to figure out what is wrong with my mother and suddenly I ran across NPD and I realized that my mother suffers from this very illness. All of my life, I have been the victim of my mother's constant criticism, her constant need for attention, her unhealthy obsession with religion, and her need to constantly hurt my feelings as well as anyone elses that she so chooses using "concern" as her excuse for doing so. Now, she has started on my daughter and because my daughter refuses to give in to her unreasonable demands to be treated like royalty, she has decided to punish me. Reading these blogs has helped me to come to terms with what I am dealing with and for the first time in my life, I can see that I am not imagining this, she truly does have a mental illness. Thank you all so much for sharing. I have made a success of my life in spite of my mother's inability to nurture and be a healthy caregiver. It is so wonderful to have an outlet such as this to share with others the common torture of being raised by someone who is so self absorbed they cannot even let go of themselves long enough to think about their own children. My mother is exactly the way a narcisstic parent is described...she considered me an extension of herself and has held me back as much as possible so that she can use me as her little worker bee to do her bidding and if I balk in any way, she uses guilt, tears, tantrums or whatever else she has in her bag of tricks to bring me back in line. I do it now, because I am afraid if I ever were to open up and say what I wanted, it would throw her into a stroke and I would have to live with that. She is a mean, calculating and unfeeling person who I believe does not have anything inside. She stays gone all of the time and I have said time and time again that it is because she cannot sit by herself for very long at a time without having to think about what she really is. She puts me down every chance she gets, but, I have been told, she brags about me to her friends because it builds her up. When she comes around me, all she talks about is herself or one of her friends' children and how great they are, rich they are, accomplished they are, and, how well they treat their mother. She is obsessed with religion and has told me for as long as I can remember that the world was going to end...to the point that as a child, I never believed I would live long enough to be married and have a family. How is that for living a dysfunctional childhood. I hope that I have done better with my daughter. I have tried to give her the apron strings and the eagle's wings as best that I could and I have tried very hard to give her the fearlessness I do not possess as my mother taught me to be afraid of EVERYTHING. Thank you for allowing me to vent...there's 49 years of it built up inside and just getting it down here has made me feel 10 pounds lighter!

Beth McHugh (13211) 05 Sep 2008 05:37 PM

Hi epiphany1, yes, this blog is very much alive and kicking as you can tell by the dates of all the contributors! At last you have a springboard from which to work from to free yourself from the sticky web of the narcissistic mother. I'm sure you have been a much more functional mother to your own daughter, and now is the time to learn to be a wonderful, loving parent to yourself. As you work through the reality of having a narcissist for a mother, there may well be anger and tears as you move through the "letting go" process. But at least you now know what you are dealing with. If you feel you need additional help in dealing with the fallout of having had a narcissistic parent you can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Best wishes, Beth

firstborn (5) 09 Sep 2008 08:08 AM

My sister and I have been struggling to deal with the ongoing emotional abuse of a narcisstic mother for years. Sadly her disorder has become even more pronounced since our father died as he is no longer around to "balance" her, protect us and provide the nurturing that we so crave. Her behaviour is so insidious that she has reduced us (we are both married, highly qualified professional women who are strong, capable and talented when she's not around) into quivering wrecks desperate to please her and terrified of unleashing her anger. In front of other people she acts like the perfect mother and acquaintances think she's fantastic. What hurts the most is how she plays one sibling off against the other (we are 4) and then turns around and blames us (the elder two) for not doing more to keep the family intact since my dad died! It is so sad and I can't take the abuse any longer. No-one truly understands because she always seems so sweet but behind their backs she criticizes everything I do or don't do. The sad thing is she has no interest in my children either. However I am very grateful for my sister's support, my loving husband and wonderful children as well as fantastic friends and in-laws.

Beth McHugh (13211) 09 Sep 2008 03:18 PM

Hi firstborn, as your mother ages the disorder becomes more pronounced as the narcissist struggles to cope with the changes that the aging process inevitably brings. That "rage at aging" is then taken out on the adult children. Now that your father has died, the buffer zone is gone so you are now on the receiving end of the full force of her particular brand of narcissistic rage. It's a difficult situation but one that you can at least share with your sister. Your mother will continue to play her manipulative games and in order to achieve any peace in your life, you will have to learn to detach, at least emotionally, from wanting your mother to change and give up the hope that things can ever be different as that is what is driving your pain and also keeping you on a treadmill of trying to please her. This you can never do and ironically the more you do, the more she will demand and find fault in you. It is also perfectly normal that she shows little interest in your children. If you would like assistance in going through the detaching and associated grieving process so that you can deal with your mother in a more satisfying way you are welcome to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com Best wishes, Beth

epiphany1 (10) 10 Sep 2008 12:23 PM

I realized after writing my comments that it was a very much up to date blog. My mom lost her mother several years ago, and, my dad, who suffers with Alzheimer's has had to be placed in a nursing home. I have noticed that Mom is much worse now that those two people are out of her life. They definately kept her in check. She is on her own now and at times I feel like I am dealing with a two year old. She recently ruined our Labor Day cook-out by getting her feelings hurt when my 28 year old daughter didn't pay enough attention to her or thank her enough for money she had given her for her birthday. She spent the entire day criticizing me and belittling everything about the cook-out, then left abruptly and would not have anything further to do with my daughter who was in for a 2 day visit. It didn't bother my daugher at all, but, of course, it tore me up. That is why I started surfing the web to see if anyone else had to play parent to their parent. I am so glad because after reading all of these blogs, I realize I am not alone, and, I do not have to continue to be a victim of her abuse.

Beth McHugh (13211) 10 Sep 2008 03:18 PM

Hi epiphany, the disorder worsens with age, as you are witnessing. Also the absence of your father means that you now cop the full brunt of her thinking and behavioral patterns. It's very difficult but it helps if you at least know what you are dealing with. You may find in your journey to recovery that you experience a range of emotions, including intense grief and anger. This is normal and part of the detaching process. Good luck with integrating your new-found knowledge into your relationship with your mom. Hopefully you will be able to see her with a whole new perspective. If you need assistance, you can contact me at my website. Best wishes, Beth

roughjourney (10) 17 Sep 2008 10:57 AM

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roughjourney (10) 17 Sep 2008 11:45 AM

A lot of this is good stuff -It's good to learn - it's so helpful to have a forum like this to share with others who've suffered the same pain & anxieties. My journey has been about 4 years. Before this, I would have described my relationship with my mother as close - quite close. The most intense pain was about the beginning of '05 when, after 6 mos. or so, I felt the full brunt of her double standards. My older brother's love life had for the first time, been inter-twined into mine and my mother and father's. My only brother is several yr's older than me, and he's pretty much a malignant narcissist. His personal life is a joke. His past relationship and the drama it carried with it, spilled out in front of me, and both my parents. After being taught to "call a spade a spade" and "always speak the truth", I expected my mother to deal honestly with what was unfolding. That did not happen. In fact she entered into the game. There's always been a double standard for my brother & I and she's always responded to my charges of double-standards as "jealousy" on my part.

I've been in regular counseling for about a year now - and for periodic episodes, prior to that. I began to detach from my whole family about 3.5 years ago. Sadly, that included my father, although he & I weren't at odds, he was quite enmeshed in the dysfunctional unit. Prior to this last Christmas, I had not spoken or seen my mother in 4 mos. I saw her, and my narc brother and my dear father for few hours. His previous (and curiously, absent) girlfriend / x-wife was the cause & catalyst for my eyes being opened to NPD. To say she was a train-wreck of an individual is an under-statement. We lost my father very soon after that day. So I was thrust back into the relationship with my narc mother that I had been working to detach from. I asked God for the grace to deal with her, trying my best to be tender and understanding in the wake of my father's passing. They were together over 50 years. I made it about 5 mos. and then her narc traits seemed to re-surface and now, after several mos. of tension and having her at my house for 3 days for storm evac, I have begun another round of detachment. Unfortunately, I still harbor an un-healthy fear of my narc brother. Only with the help of my counselor and my husband was I brave enough to send off a note to him recently to take charge and get my mother some "help", trying to keep the focus on her grieving (or lack of). I requested that he not contact me, stating that that would only complicate matters. Naturally, he disrespected my wishes and e-mailed me back anyway. I don't read them - they collect in a "blocked" box on my PC and I will let counselor read them at his discretion. So, really, I would easily like to completely detach from her with possibly only slight contact every other month or so. Even then I would like to have someone with me, or limit it to about 15 min's on the phone. I feel completely drained by her, judged by her. Interaction with her only results in my anxiety levels spiking and tensions building in my own relationship. I've worked hard to look within myself and look at this situation and my favorite phrase has become "I didn't create it and I can't control or change it" My specific question to you, Beth would be about NC (no contact) and how to realistically live that out in light of an elderly parent when you're the only daughter. Thanks -

Beth McHugh (13211) 17 Sep 2008 04:40 PM

Hi roughjourney, weighing up the "no contact" scenario is always a very difficult one and you can really only successfully achieve it when you are free for any guilt surrounding the relationship. Plus it is a decision that only you can make, because you are the one who has to be comfortable with it. Sometimes it is something that you have to work towards rahter than "do" immediately. Having an elderly parent with NPD is very challenging, yet I notice that you refer to yourself as "the only daughter". But your mother also has a son who is, on paper, an adult and equally able to keep an eye on your mother. Just these words alone indicate that there is a belief system still present that would make it hard for you to walk out right now. So, it is possible to walk away but it is necessary to disentangle yourself emotionally first, otherwise the guilt can become a problem in itself. But it is possible! Ask your therapist for help in this area or alternatively contact me at http://youonlinecounselor.com Best wishes, Beth

DarSC (10) 17 Sep 2008 08:51 PM

Hi Beth - reading all these comments has been very interesting. The NPD in my life is my mother-in-law. I married into this family when I was 18, so I had accepted some of the weird behavior for many years. The final straw came when my 21 year old son was paralyzed in an accident, and her only concern seemed to have been that the attention would not be on her, constantly referring to her "broken back" (she has osteoporosis), and calling my son in the hospital to ask him to get his surgeon to recommend a neurosurgeon for her! My husband confronted her and told her not to call our son with this type of comment - then he was "attacking" her. The list goes on, and on, and on. I had breast cancer 2 years ago - of course she immediately had several "cancer scares". She just seems to hate her kids/in laws and is indifferent to the grandchildren and great grandchildren. I still struggle with guilt, because I see her only a few times a year - we live in Canada, and she spends 6 months of the year in Arizona. I cook a meal a couple of times in the summer, and see her at other family dues, but that is it. My husband phones her, takes her out for lunch or drops by once a week or so out of duty. But there is none of the closeness I feel with my kids/grandchild and some other family members. And somehow I feel that is my fault - because she certainly believes it is! I know this because of the way she talks about the other daughter in laws, and I'm certain I don't fare any better. I agree too that the aging process just makes it worse, although she still sees herself as quite a babe! Also thinks the world will end soon and is "religious", but I think she just can't imagine that it will continue to spin without her.

Beth McHugh (13211) 18 Sep 2008 04:08 PM

Hi DarSC, the "broken back" announcement after your son was paralyzed certainly would fill one of the criteria for NPD. I've had one NPD sufferer trying to consult with her husband's palliative care doctor for all her aches and pains as her husband lay dying. It is not your fault in terms of how the relationship is between you and your MIL, but narcissists are very good at apportioning blame and shame onto others and it often works very well until the victim discovers what is going on and starts to interact differently with the narcissist. Marrying so young would have meant that the chances of you realizing what was going on were minimal -- most people become aware of the real nature of the problem in their thirties and often after they have children of their own and they see certain behaviors being repeated and watching the first-hand effects it has on their own children. Try as best you can not to take on too much of her behavior, and although it is directed at you sometimes, it could be directed at anybody. This is how they behave and you just happen to be the DIL, so some of it will land on your doorstep. I hope your husband and you are able to set first boundaries in regards to what you will and won't accept from her. Best wishes, Beth

DarSC (10) 21 Sep 2008 05:52 AM

I am just wondering why this problem seems so common in older women - or is it just from where I'm looking? My mother, while not the attention getter my mother in law is, also had many narcissistic tendencies, and sometimes I've wondered if her pre-feminist life somehow kept her from being a fully functioning adult. I am trying to find and focus on older women who are a more positive role model. Do you think that our culture has some cause/effect on narcissitic personality?

Beth McHugh (13211) 21 Sep 2008 02:21 PM

Hi DarSC, all of us have self-absorbed tendencies -- we wouldn't be human if we didn't. The incidence of NPD is comparatively rare, roughly 1% of the population, and I have had people consult me who are "sure" their relative has NPD but after reviewing the case, they do not. That is why it is important to have a professional diagnosis as it is easy to be swayed from what one reads on the Internet. It's always best to find that your mother (for example) does NOT have NPD, otherwise there is very little room to move, and ways to improve the realtionship. As for older women, it is true that as both genders age, many become more self-absorbed, either through illness or loneliness and they tend to focus on themselves, but that is not NPD. There is a theory however that NPD is on the increase in young adults due to material indulgence by the parents, parental neglect due to the breakdown in families and the pursuit of jobs, and the failure by parents to permit their offspring to "grow up" by not ensuring they take personal responsibility for their actions. Even in the latter case, however, personality type is important and not everyone who is indulged will ever go on to become a full-blown narcissist. There are older women who are excellent role models out there, but you will find that they have likely been excellent role models all their lives. Keep looking! Hope this helps, Beth

HopeNOW (15) 23 Sep 2008 01:54 PM

Dear Beth, DarSC, RoughJourney, Epiphany, and others...

First I should say that I am working online with Beth concerning this very issue, and she has been incredibly helpful already. Beth, you are gifted in therapeutic technique and knowledge, and I am most grateful. Finding this forum is just wonderful. When you have been raised by an NPD mother, the need to vent and get it out is strong. Thank you.

I am 59 years old, and until this last two weeks or so, I was TERRIFIED of my 85-year old mother. Like so many of you, I am what the world considers a great success: two Ph.D.s., steady marriage of over 38 years, two adult children--a daughter who is so happily married and pregnant for the first time and a son who is at Princeton. And, they are both HAPPY and free. I am charitable, hard-working, pleasant, brilliant, and totally damaged and ruined--until recently that is. I spent 30 years bulimic, throwing up my guts numerous times every day, some days ten times. I pleased everyone in my life except myself, but this all ended (or so I thought) ten years ago when my rocket scientist of a father died suddenly, and I faced my own mortality. I stopped throwing up one day and never vomited again. Of course it was not that easy, but I did it after years and years of trying. But I never told anyone I threw up and I never told anyone that I stopped (until several years ago, that is). I then slowly gained a lot of weight (more from menopause than stopping an eating disorder) and then slowly lost it. Two years ago at 57, I was in perfect shape, and I thought I was restored and full of life--I was deluding myself.

Since the time of my father's death in 1999, my NPD mother, like so many of you write about, went totally unchecked and her vicious swath extended from Arizona to New York State, through her daily eviscerating phone calls to deride me or blame me for her DIFFICULT LIFE and all of her PROBLEMS and her constant HEALTH COMPLAINTS. In truth she lived in a huge paid-for house with a big pool, had a maid, and millions. I have a Ph.D. in finance and wanted to help her--to be LOVING. MY father left over three million dollars, and my NPD mother systematically squandered it on my two brothers (and yes, there were not ever treated like I was or my sister). She sold her big house and bought a smaller one, and gave my brother the difference. When I would try to stop her from throwing her money away on my brothers who NEVER earned much money, I was called selfish and nasty and incapable of loving my siblings since I couldn't share my MOMMY!--her words.

It was a nightmare. My husband was quite emotionally distant and very moody and hard to live with for most of our marriage, but he has changed. He changed this year when all hell broke loose with my mother, and he finally saw that if he didn't help me, I would die from her abuse. It all started in January (or escalated, I should say) when my mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's and begged me to come to Arizona to get her and SAVE her since my brother was throwing her away and STEALING HER MONEY AND HER HOUSE--good trick since the money is gone. But the house is still there--in the terrible housing market as it will not sell.

My mother lived with us in New York from February until August, when in an uncharacteristic act of bravery, I had her placed in the most beautiful assisted living facility I have ever seen. I did this to help my mother, truly, since she needed the companionship of people her own age and structured care-and I did it to save my own life, as I know I was about to have a stroke or a heart attack, and I am not exaggerating. I have not seen her or talked to her since. I do pay a private aide to check on her and to acclimate her, but I cannot see her again. She is telling everyone at the gorgeous place that I am evil, I betrayed her, I threw her away, and I did this to steal her money. I live in a small town and everyone knows me. But I am not embarrassed, I was SCARED. She even called Adult Protective Services on me and told them that I had abused her and stuck her there (in a gorgeous apartment with her little Maltese dogs and some of my Persian rugs and cherry furniture in total splendor overlooking a meadow and woods)-since I was so abusive. I was literally crumbing on the floor and crying nonstop and afraid to leave my house. This is how I found Beth, thank GOD. I was desperate for a way to alleviate my great guilt and terror. I actually asked Beth to grant me PERMISSION never to have to see my mother again. I have honestly said things like, "I will only be happy after that horrible woman dies."

Now, I know what Beth meant when she said that would have to be my decision and should come only after the guilt issues and detachment have occurred. I understand now.

I am not saying this is easy yet, but there is hope. I do not mean hope that my mother will ever change. She will not. But now I know it is only natural for someone raised like I was to eventually (finally after 59 years) acknowledge my real feelings of hatred for that woman. I don't like her; I probably love her at some level, but my honest feelings were hatred and terror. In high school, I had just lost 60 pounds and was blonde and beautiful, but I didn't know it. One night in my naiveté (I almost never left the house and sat day after day and night after night-all the hours I was not in school-by my mother as she ranted or gave me her nonstop advice about everything and everyone) I drove a boy home from a school honor society meeting. He asked me to pull over so I did. He almost raped me and even pulled out a knife. Luckily for me a policeman came by and we drove away. I didn't tell the police about the incident since the kid said he would kill me. But he jumped out of the car, and I drove home crying. When I told my parents what happened, my mother said that I should not say anything to get the boy in trouble since it would KILL HIS PARENTS. And then she told me for five hours that I didn't know anything about what hell was because she had saved my father's life when I was eight years old and he was so suicidal that he even was hanging in the basement and she cut him down. I had not heard that before, and I was totally debilitated by it. The message was clear-do not have any feeling of your own since MOTHER has always suffered more. Now years later, I believe that my mother made that up. My father was suicidal from a medication reaction, and he did drive his car into a tree and almost died-after my mother had him released out of suicide watch she since knew better how to care for her husband-but I am sure the hanging story was horrifying made up to terrify me and keep me in my PLACE.

My mother almost killed me when she was here, and I mean it sincerely. Every day I would go down to her lovely and huge suite (with fireplace, private porch with swing overlooking a twenty-mile long lake) and try to be helpful and pleasant around her. It didn't matter how I started the day-by 10:00 AM I was back upstairs (we have a four-story house-and the bills to go with it, trust me-and my mother was on the first floor-I basically live on the fourth floor as I am a writer and work there-I should say I was a writer since I have been unable to do anything for four months but cry and sit and stare out the window). I had assumed that after my bulimia ended, I was strong and in control-I only had that one SLIGHT issue with my mother...that ISSUE that was almost lethal for me. It didn't matter how I would approach her. If I had so much inspiration and was bursting to get back at my novel, I would be told that I was working too hard and that she was lonely or her back hurt or that I didn't understand how bad she felt or what it felt like to have a toothache or a UTI or whatever. I would spend hours getting her medication or talking to her doctors in Arizona since she wouldn't switch to a doctor here-only to have her refuse the medication, even antibiotics. It was just hell. It got so bad that I started calling my husband to come home from work to PROTECT me. I never called him before or asked for help, since I was PERFECT and my feeling didn't matter anyway. I learned differently this year, and it is wonderful to have a real relationship with my husband, finally.

I really did try to confront her many times and forgive her for what she did to me-and my sister. My sister is mentally ill. She was bipolar and then psychotic and lost her family-her house, her husband, and her three children. My mother called for her to come to Arizona so she could SAVE her. And do you know how she did this? She withheld my sister's lithium and anti-psychotic medication until my sister literally fractured and went into lockdown units over and over again. Finally, my sister demanded that she take her medication daily, and she did get better enough that can function, mildly. But she is permanently damaged and now lives in a small basement one-room efficiency in the EAST, with very little money, and doesn't care. She said she would live in a hole to be free of our mother. She is that bad.

I should also mention that a mother with NPD is HELL, but an NPD mother with Alzheimer's is like a nuclear reactor. Everyone would just say to me, "Oh, it is just the disease; be a loving and supporting daughter and caregiver. She is your mother, after all." It wasn't until recently that I realized that my mother is someone who is probably evil-and I don't mean it religiously-but the point is made. She is a martyr the size of the Towering Inferno-and she has SUFFERED so much in her life and never asked for a thing...according to her. When I read of the woman who wrote in and said that even when her twenty-one-year old son became paralyzed (and you have my great compassion and those words brought me to tears for your pain and your son's) her mother was still only focused on herself, I almost lost it from pain. A similar thing happened to us two years ago when our then nineteen-year old son developed severe gastric deterioration from an acne medication, believe it or not, and had five abdominal surgeries and spent five weeks in intensive care with ZERO percent chance medically of living. But he did, thank GOD. He then spent six more months at home where I cared for him around the clock-he had to take a year off from Princeton. It was the most horrible experience of my life, and one in which I could not leave his side for one minute. I spent five weeks in his hospital room-without EVER changing my clothes. I slept under his bed or on his bathroom floor. He was also deathly allergic to the blood thinner Heparin, so I couldn't leave him. Twice I caught nurses trying to flush out his IVs with heparin-which I batted out of their hands. I think the crisis nature of this is obvious. I never called my mother once during this period since I had no choice (although my husband did call her nightly). But, this was an indignity done to HER that she could never reconcile. I had abandoned HER. She spent the entire time, I heard later, calling everyone in the country to tell them about what a selfish and disgusting daughter I was for doing that to HER. I think you all totally understand.

Two months ago, our daughter had a huge engagement party to celebrate her finding the most wonderful young man in the world. Of course my husband and I wanted to go, but she lives 880 miles from us. I couldn't get anyone to stay with my mother, who became enraged when she finally realized I was leaving for five days. I had to ask my sister to drive eight hours to stay with mother-she did it, but it was very hard for her after living with my mother for five years. The day we were supposed to leave, my mother announced that my sister had car trouble and would not be coming. I was distraught. I didn't think I could survive another day with my mother, so I called my sister who told me that our mother had called her and told her NOT TO COME. I started crying and begged her, so she did drive all the way here. We never got out of our house until 7:00 PM, but we did go.

That was the beginning of the final journey into hell since I had dared to defy this woman by leaving her (with excellent care and a fully stocked refrigerator of homemade meals) to go see my daughter. When we returned five days later, my sister was almost ruined again; and when I announced that indeed our daughter was getting married in two weeks (and back in the South which meant another trip), all my mother said was, "Well, you're not going, right?"

That did it for me. I could finally see through her veil of compassion or generosity or charm, and realized that this woman was absolutely dangerous. I didn't answer her but started making plans to have her placed in Assisted Living. During those ten days that she stayed in the house, she was constantly on her phone whispering-calling my brothers and begging them to come and get her since I was abusive or whatever. She offered them both her house as gift if they would care for her in her house-and they both refused. They wouldn't take her again for a house worth close to a half a million dollars. After five days of constant abuse or icy stares and glares and one huge meltdown argument where I finally for the only time in my life lost it and started yelling at that woman, ARMGADDON was at hand. My mother then raised the stakes and calling everyone to report my horrendous treatment of her since I actually defied her for the first time in my life. The day before we left for the wedding, I had a private aide take my mother to the doctor and then directly to Assisted Living. If this sounds horrid, I did this at the recommendation of several doctors because with her Alzheimer's, they said she would never understand if I took her-and she may even physically try to kill me at the facility. I didn't want to take the chance-and I was too terrified to do it any other way.

I know this is a terribly long post, but I wanted to say something really important. Beth was right-when she said that for those of you who want to sever your ties with your NPD parents, you must work through it first to release any guilt or fear. I have decided that I will not personally see my mother again or talk with her. She has only one intention at this point from her NPD and the horrendous exacerbation of her behavior from dementia and that is to KILL me. But I am going to continue to work with Beth until I feel strong and assured again. And I am making enormous progress. I am not afraid any longer. I am almost getting to a point of disdain and that feels wonderful after a lifetime of living to make my mother happy or fix her problems or be her whipping post. My son has to have one more surgery in December to close a five inch wound from his former surgeries, and my daughter is making me a grandmother next year. I have to live for them and for me-and I deserve it! Thanks for listening and I wish you all the best.

Beth McHugh (13211) 23 Sep 2008 05:31 PM

Hi HopeNOW, thank you for sharing your story with us, I'm sure it will inspire readers that there is hope to escape the sticky clutches of the narcissistic parent. You have come from a place of enormous pain and now there is a bright future ahead for you -- and you deserve it! I will comment further in private. Beth

julibeth (20) 24 Sep 2008 01:44 AM

Dear HopeNOW, what a story, and I am so pleased you have distanced your mother from yourself and your family.

It seems to me that a lot of the problem we all have is that we can't quite believe that these people behave so badly. So we think we're imagining it, or that it's our fault and spend our time trying to correct ourselves. And yes the fear of the rages which taps back into the terror of small children whose world is suddenly and capriciously rocked on its foundations when its centre erupts inexplicably.

I don't know about all of you, but my mother also used to lie a lot. I would say "Oh you said ... whatever" and she would completely deny it. Well when you're small, it doesn't really occur to you that mummy lies, but I knew what I knew, so I suppose I got to accept that there could be 2 realities! (Quite useful as I am a sort of Buddhist and so find it very easy to believe that the world is an illusion!!) She loved to "get one over" on people, and would make up things and delight in their gullibility when they believed her. I remember she told me that a friend of hers who never married had been involved with a married man years ago. A while later, having forgotten she'd told me that, she chortled that she had told the woman's sister in law this tale and she'd fallen for it. How did that make me feel!

I have also realized that my mother kept me away from the rest of the family. She thought my father's family weren't quite good enough and refused to go to any of their family parties. My dad used to see his brothers and sister on his own once a year. She used to wax lyrical about her own family, but hardly ever saw them and certainly never lifted a finger to help any of them. I think I was kept away because she was frightened I might spill the beans about her. I only say that because I did finally get back in touch with a cousin on my fathers side and went to a family party. I told my mother they asked after her and had fond memories of her (from the times very early on when she lived with her in-laws) and she seemed to relax a bit about me seeing them. See how I colluded with her to show her in a good light! That was only 5 years ago. I have to admit I have told a couple of them the truth and they said that my dad's sister had suspected he wasn't very happy. But they haven't a clue as to the extent of what went on.

It is difficult to forgive my mother when she doesn't think she ever did anything wrong. I have tried to confront her a few times but she totally denies any example I might bring up and says she "has nothing to reproach herself with". I once said (having read an article about voicing your feelings) " I feel unloved.. or something like that" and she immediately said "all right - all right - I feel unloved" Absolutely not interested in me! So it just leaves me with it all and nowhere to go.

Anyway, this site is so helpful as I said before. I have been discussing it with some friends with similar mothers (all my friends seem to have ghastly mothers!!) and the fact that you can put a name to it, and see from other people's stories, similar behaviours and traits puts it into perspective more. It takes away that horrible feeling that it is all your fault. All of you thank you!

HopeNOW (15) 24 Sep 2008 09:49 AM

Dear Julibeth and Beth,

Thank you both so much. I felt dreadfully selfish for writing so much, but then I thought that you all may want to see that there is HOPE if you get good therapy, like with wonderful Beth, and keep searching. Nothing I ever did was good enough for my mother, and as you can see, I have done PLENTY! I truly believe in my heart that until I sacrificed my LIFE for that woman it would never have been enough. Now I know that is a myth I bought into. I recommend an excellent book I just finished, called "The Wizard of Oz and other Narcissists." It really helped me start to heal. But the essential message in the book and in so many other works and websites is that confronting the narcissist, like when Dorothy ventured behind the screen and saw that the WIZARD was just a small and pathetic man, is the answer. Beth was the first person who has said that this must be weighed carefully. This is especially essential, I believe, with the elderly parent who has Alzheimer's or dementia, as in my case. Confronting my mother at this point would only throw her into a meltdown and would accomplish nothing for me. I believe that by lovingly NOT confronting her in person, but doing so in writing and by seeking effective therapy, I can confront what she did to me without literally KILLING HER-which is not my intention for all of my stated acrimony. I have to get past this-but I don't have to ruin or kill my mother: that is her tactic not mine. On the other hand, I will not subject myself to her personally or on the phone again. The game is over for her: checkmate.

But, interestingly, because of my newly empowered VIEWPOINT, my mother has truly shrunken down to the size of a small and brittle plastic action figure sitting on a shelf, and I am not afraid of her any longer. Today, I am metaphorically "putting her in a drawer" in my memory and really moving on. I will, however, continue working with Beth online until I am sure that I am being totally authentic and that I am really free. But I know I am getting there and it feels great.

I used to wake up every day before my mother moved in with us in February and have this panicked feeling in my chest dreading when the phone would ring. Now I don't, and it is the most wonderful feeling about this whole thing. Yesterday, I was singing-absolutely singing, "My DAY WILL COME," or something like that. I didn't even notice until my husband told me, smiling.

To the world my mother was a saint-an opera singer, who sacrificed everything to stay home and raise her four children-living in mansions and having everything she ever wanted-which to her was NEVER FOR HER. It is almost ludicrous now thinking about it. But she almost killed me, and for the thirty years I suffered with bulimia in silence, I only ventured into therapy one hour-and it was horrendous. I had told the female doctor, a skinny and tiny Army psychiatrist who didn't even speak English sufficiently, that my father took Resperine in the 1950s and for him it caused suicidal thoughts and a nearly lethal attempt. When she was done staring at me and shaking her head, all she said was, "I am prescribing Resperine for you now."

I ran out of her office crying and never told anyone. Every other time I mentioned therapy casually, my mother would launch her diatribe that THOSE FOOLS almost killed your father-they are destructive; they know nothing; they plant lies in their patients heads; they only want their patients to blame their poor parents; and on and on. I think for myself and perhaps a lot of you, our narcissistic mothers may have planted THOSE lies into our heads so they could keep us weak and sick. Please, don't believe that myth. I realize now that had I not been debilitated by my fear and low self-esteem, I should have gone to another doctor seeking help immediately; but it was too embarrassing for me-as many of you know most bulimics will DIE keeping their secret. For those of you who are suffering clinical effects from your narcissistic mothers, please keep searching for help. For me, finding Beth was a miracle since I can converse with her online, and she instantly made me feel safe and loved and placed me in a trusting environment where I can heal. If this is not an option for you who are suffering so profoundly, keep looking and talking. It is the only way out. I wish you all love...and you know you have my understanding!

Beth McHugh (13211) 24 Sep 2008 03:03 PM

Hi julibeth, it is difficult to forgive a person when they do not acknowledge that they have done anything wrong. However, when you are dealing with a person who truly suffers from NPD, you are dealing with a different currency. There can be no admission of wrong on their part because it is too painful for them to do so. They will not be consciously aware of this. You may be able to paint them into a corner and painful extract the word "sorry" out of them, but it will not be genuine. There will be an agenda behind it -- their agenda. Also, "voicing your feelings " is so important for good mental health -- but this does not apply to relationships with a narcissist. It will only cause you more pain. Confrontation is a similar problem. You might like to have a read of http://mental-health.families.com/blog/should-you-confront-a-narcissist-about-their-narcissism Confronting a narcissist about their narcissism is best avoided; it can be successfully done under the right conditions and for the right reasons, but only after you have successfully detached yourself emotionally from the narcissistic parent, otherwise you will only be hurt again. You will not be acknowledged and must accept that. This is possible -- the whole key to getting past NPD is accepting the sometimes unacceptable, but it can be done! Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 24 Sep 2008 03:09 PM

Hi HopeNOW, as you have seen, much of the power of the narcissist is "smoke and mirror" stuff, but because it begins in childhood, it is hard to let go of. There is a type of brainwashing happening and the child cannot determine which is correct and which is incorrect, simply through lack of life experience. Yet it is also extremely difficult to fully extract yourself from a narcissistic mother in adulthood, not least because of the myths that surround mothers and mothering. You are well on your way to getting out of the sticky web of narcissism. Best wishes, Beth

seeme3 (26) 14 Oct 2008 10:59 AM

This is my first time here on this website and for posting a message like this. I too, am another daughter of a narcissistic mother. She was terrible growing up and she's a little better now, but maybe that's because I live a minimum of 2 hours (airplane ride) away from her! I've been in therapy for over a decade and on antidepressants, because, hey! Guess what? Depression and mental illness runs in my family! The most lingering effect that my trying to "recover" from all of the psychological damage this woman has put me through is how I relate with men. I always make the wrong choices... I almost married my mother 14 years ago. Not really, but I'm sure you understand. It sent me into therapy and when I was 23 years old finally found some solace and comfort that all was not wrong with me and I wasn't defective. My mother instilled in me the honest to goodness belief that I could never amount to anything, that good things weren't means for "people like us" and that I was "greedy, selfish, lazy and rude." I am none of those things and can cite reasons and give other evidence of such, but I don't think you really need that here. I have a feeling you understand the need to provide such evidence. Finally, I'm getting to my problem. I tend to sleep with men very quickly when I am sure that I don't like them because this way I am sure never to get hurt . Then, it's usually after our third encounter that he stops calling. As soon as there is silence, my head starts spinning and I keep thinking about and replaying the last night in my head. "What did I say wrong?" "What did I do wrong? "Does he think I'm fat" "Does he think I'm stupid?" etc. etc. And then I start to become interested in that person MORE BECAUSE THEY ARE IGNORNING ME. Sound text book? It is. I'm still trying to win over my f-in mother. I just slept with my language teacher (no grades, it's extracurricular). He is Argentinian and very sweet. I didn't sleep with him immediately...two months into the class. He stopped calling me and showing interest, but he's pretty appropriate in school... more like a boy on the playground pulling pigtails. Anyhow, before the psychic parasite took me over last Friday, I was just into having a little fun and then calling it a day. now I'm so obsessed. depressed. paranoid. sad. I need to figure out how to stop myself from feeling this way (or stop sleeping with the wrong men?)... I don't know. I'm very careful and healthy and not a complete whore if that is what I sound like. It's just that I've been single for so long, it's nice to have unattached "company" every now and again. Any advice? Words of wisdom? Support? I need it. Thank you so much.

julibeth (20) 19 Oct 2008 07:34 AM

I recognise that! I think it's an acute lack of self esteem from your mother's behaviour towards you, and not ever being allowed to work out what YOU want rather than always having to please her. I had no emotional confidence and sleeping with men seemed to be the only way I could relate to them. I ended up marrying knowing it was a mistake, but feeling I had to go through with it because he said he couldn't live without me. Pressed all those buttons the NPD mothers press. 30 years later I'm still married to him and still wish I wasn't. But as you get older change gets more frightening, especially if you have no support. It sounds as if these men treat you just like your mother did. And then your reaction is to feel inadequate when they don't call just like you did when you were little and your mother behaved as if she didn't love you - ignored you, was hostile, sulked, or whatever her method of disapproval was. So then you go back into that child mode and keep saying to yourself, what did I do wrong, how can I make it up to her etc. etc. I'm no expert, but if I try and think what advice I wish someone had given me when I was younger I would have said first of all YOUR MOTHER IS NOT NORMAL and however she make you feel it was unjustified. Not only that but ABNORMAL. She USED you to make herself feel good. It wasn't your fault. Then look at your feelings when you are with these men. Are you desparately trying to gain their approval? Make them like you? Then try, with the next one, to deliberately go against type. Imagine you are an ice maiden and under no circumstances are you going to even kiss him, much less sleep with him! Just as an experiment! Be fun and enthusiastic etc. but DON'T DO IT!! Not for weeks. I have found that perfectly nice men can be utter heels with some women, and perfect gentlemen with others. If you lie down, they'll walk over you (so to speak!) Don't lie down, not until you are absolutely sure you like this guy and are doing it for you and not for his (your mother's) approval. Good luck!! Let us know how it goes!

LonelyIsolated (10) 24 Nov 2008 09:35 PM

I am glad that this article was written, explained and discussed here. I am the oldest man in a family of three children, with a younger brother and older sister. My mother is a narcissitic person I can see now. My father was an alcoholic and there was a lot of violence between him and my mother as a very young child and I saw many terrible tantrums, fights and anger. I was terrified as a child. My mother always tells us that 'she stayed with him because she loves us and she could not have provided for us without him'. That tells me many things, 1 that she purposely exposed us to his neglect and her violence, 2 that she did not want to venture out and get a job to raise us as a single mother, 3 she had no problem with exposing us to violence and rage and physical danger and 4 that she used an alcoholic man to exploit his paycheque even though she did not get along with him. I now find it impossible for me to stay with any woman in a relationship for more than 1 or 2 years and I have gone through at least 20 'girlfriends' in my lifetime. I cannot feel warmth (for very long) towards a woman and feel that eventually, I will be tricked and exploited (financially or just not loved) by the woman I am with, so eventually I just run. My father recently had a heart attack and my mother and sister were out of town and did not come back to be with him until after he was in a coma for 5 days as they were 'busy shopping' out of town. This is true. I cannot see this as a loving relationship. Then, we decided to take my father off of life support and he died soon after. I was 'abused' as a child, but my mother was too afraid to hunt the person down so I suffered from depression for 24 years instead, not knowing why. My mother supports my brother and his lifestyle (no job, free food and rent...) but I can never do enough for her. Now, without my father, she calls and calls to ask for my help. If I get a new girlfriend, she attacks her and she is ostracised and wants to leave me. I am isolated from my family, friends and all meaningful relationships and do not know how to get anything to work with people. maybe you have some ideas...

Beth McHugh (13211) 28 Nov 2008 02:42 PM

Hi LonelyIsolated, have you had any counseling for either your childhood abuse or the effects of the environment of your childhood. Trust issues need to be addressed in this situation so that you do not recreate the past with all your new relationships. Would you consider having therapy? Best wishes, Beth

Snowberry (16) 16 Dec 2008 12:31 PM

I want to thank you for this inspiring informative site. I am 60 and just recently figured out that my mother is NPD. I realized several years ago that I would never have their approval (I haven't figured out my father yet but he may be NPD as well), and I have kept distance from them even though they live nearby. Of course, this has made me unacceptable and they seem to blame my husband and are very cruel to him. The whole thing has driven me crazy for most of my life, making me feel unworthy of love and incapable of having a healthy relationship. I could write volumes about the pain my mother has caused me and my family but the biggest problem for me right now is that I have a chance to move away from them and be closer to my kids and grandkids whom I love dearly. Parents are very old and getting frail (both alcoholic) but still live on their own with help from a handiman. They are going to need more help soon and have noone but me to be there for them. I feel that if I move away the guilt would be unbearable and I'm sure they would cut me out of their life - but my husband and family tell me I am entitled to my own happiness. Does anyone else have this issue and how can it be resolved? Thanks again for this site. It has been an incredible help to know there are others out there with the same heartache.

muffin1960 (5) 04 Jan 2009 03:01 PM

I am almost 50, yet I have spent the evening crying like a child because of more abuse from my mother who I am certain has NPD. She is also an alcoholic. I swing from wanting her to love me, to fury. She is going into hospital for an operation for lung cancer on Weds, and I long for her to die so I can be free of being hurt by her. How is it possible to still be so upset at my age?

Beth McHugh (13211) 05 Jan 2009 04:04 AM

Hi Snowberry, thi is a tough choice for you and you will need to work at eliminating the guilt that would ensue if you did move. Even if you stay there will still be guilt as you reduce he contact you have with your parents. The aging narcissist is very difficult to deal with and whether you stay or go you need to be prepared for this also. You can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if at any time you need help in resolving this problem. Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 05 Jan 2009 03:57 PM

Hi Muffin, you are still upset because you are still wanting your mother to be different -- to be a real mother to you instead of the one you have. Pat of recovering from having a NPD mother is learning to let go of expectations and going through the necessary grieving process and anger process of not having the other you needed and deserved. Best wishes, Beth

Snowberry (16) 08 Jan 2009 05:37 PM

Yes, I believe I do feel guilty about distancing them since I had the NPD revelation. But it also feels good for me to be able to do this. I feel more in charge of me and quite proud of myself. And I think I have accepted that they are never going to love me or approve of me. It's actually a relief to finally understand and it explains a lot about my own self and who I am. I guess my question really is, "Do we have a moral obligation to take care of our elderly parents if we are in a position to do so?" - even if they have always treated us with anger and cruelty? Do we actually love them anyway? I used to help out an elderly neighbor who was mean, rude and stingy, and it really didn't bother me at all. I just felt sorry for her. Why is it so different with my own parents? Happy New Year and God bless you for this wonderful forum.

Beth McHugh (13211) 11 Jan 2009 12:21 AM

Hi Snowberry, helping out a crotchety neighbor did not have a negative effect o you because you had no emotional attachment to them. You could walk away at any time. With your parents you have certain expectations, we all do, and when these are not met, or are even withheld cruelly or they are abusive, naturally it hurts and upsets us. And it is hard to "walk away" as we would with a stranger. Hence the problem of having difficult parents can be a hard one to resolve.

Grizelda (241) 15 Jan 2009 11:43 PM

I've been reading your wonderful blogs for a few weeks, Beth, and everyone who's shared their stories, and Snowberry's question has inspired me to respond, though I feel a bit pushy just barging in, but here goes...

My mother has NPD, I believe, and I'm struggling with the question that Snowberry posed, "Do we have a moral obligation to take care of our elderly parents?" I don't think I'm as generous as I'm not sure I'd help a neighbor very much if she was rude or mean to me (though I admire that!) But in my mother's case, I'd like to think I'd do whatever she asked - IF it didn't ruin my life and hinder the happiness and health of myself and my family. With the help of your advice and fellow sufferers' stories, I'm going to try to set boundaries and limits and find the courage to just say No, but it's so hard!

Actually, I've been doing it but it's difficult because I haven't explained to her why I'm no longer compliant - and I haven't told her exactly WHAT limits I want to set. I've thought of telling her I'll see her once a week - or take her somewhere once a week - but not the three or four times a week she calls me to take her to a movie or a bridge game or frivolous shopping, etc. (she recently moved to my city to an assisted living place.) She's sort of storing up all these refusals of mine and using them to label me a recalcitrant stubborn [CENSORED], lots of snide comments and such, often in front of family and others, and that's hard to bear, but I'm determined to keep trying to make this situation tolerable.

Well, I've gone on far too long and I'm obviously not very good at explaining myself but one more point before I close this ramble - I think what I'm most afraid of is facing the other people that she's talked to and told what a worthless, neglectful daughter I am. It's embarrassing facing the director of the assisted-living place and the workers, etc. I live in the South and there's such an expectation on daughters to be doting self-sacrificing caretakers - but maybe it's just as true in the rest of the country. It's just mortifying.

Oh well, I guess there's no real answer to that problem, except that it takes a lot of COURAGE to stand your ground and reclaim (save?) your life. I wish everybody who's undertaking this challenge all the best! Perhaps it's a life-lesson that's important to learn no matter what your situation in life - you shouldn't worry about having the approval of other people in order to be at peace with yourself.

foreign3R (5) 16 Jan 2009 12:39 PM

WOW! Thank you so very much for writing and following up on the Aging NPD Parent. I found this blog while looking for advice: Today Adult Protective Services started investigating me.

My undiagnosed NPD 82-year-old mom has nearly destroyed my older sister's marriage, has driven my family to near homelessness, and now she might get me jailed!

My crime: I finally had enough and told her she would have to arrange taxi rides to her appointments. Hopefully, I can persuade the investigator to close the case.

My mother is comparatively wealthy, lives in a nice spotless house, is able to cook, has daily visitors (medical) and callers, and even drives herself (she shouldn't) to go shopping.

Not knowing about NPD, I uprooted my family, my wife quit her medical practice, we sold our possessions, and moved our kids 3000 miles to rent an unaffordable house next door so we could feed mom and drive her around daily. We expected, wrongly, that she would see value in our assistance, and help us financially while we helped her.

Of course, this left no time for finding work, and my in-laws have graciously paid many of our bills for six months. My mother, however, just takes, never gives, just complains, and hasn't a nice word to say to anyone.

On one occasion she gave us a $5000 gift which she vehemently required us to take, demanded that we not refuse it, and then insisted that it be used only to get a license to open a medical practice. Of course, we couldn't afford to open a practice, couldn't refuse the gift, and we spent the money on food for our children and rent.

As we sank into poverty and faced eviction, still my mother cared not a whit.

Eventually I realized I had to cut her out of my life, so I told her she would need to take a taxi. That night she asked me to drive her to the ER - which she requests about every 6 weeks or so.

The next day, Adult Protective Services is on my doorstep, accusing me of misappropriating funds! "What did you do with the $5000?"

Of course, I can't afford a lawyer, and I'm afraid to make a statement.

I nearly failed MBA school because my mother would call for my presence (across country) away from school just before, or during, examinations. The stress destroyed my relationships at school, and actually made school unpleasant for my classmates.

She literally stays awake at night trying to think of ways to make nice people suffer. I'm serious! I've seen it.

I never imagined that one little old lady could hurt dozens of people who never met her, halfway across the world!

Thanks, readers, for letting me vent. Beth, thanks MUCH for publishing your blog. (Now I think I need a lawyer.)

Beth McHugh (13211) 18 Jan 2009 04:33 PM

Hi Grizelda, Your mother won't understand if you explain about boundaries, and even if she did, she would just get angry. If you want to have a civil relationship with her you will have to find that you are busy at lot and have other commitments. Yes, she will blacken your name to the staff of the home she is in, but they will pretty soon work her out. The important thing is that you and your family survive the onslaught of your mother. You will never be able to satisfy her even if you devoted your life to her, she would still have a complaint. You need to be very clear about her condition and the boundaries between you and her and then it wont matter to you what "the neighbors" say about you because you will know the truth. Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 18 Jan 2009 04:38 PM

Hi Foreign3R, at least now you know exactly what you are dealing with and with knowledge comes power. As I keep saying, boundaries are so important when dealing with narcissists, and the firmer you can be with her, the happier you will be There will unfortunately be an interim period where she will make your life even more hell, and may even disown you, this the price all adult children of NPDs must pay. Best wishes, beth

Grizelda (241) 19 Jan 2009 09:26 PM

Thank you so much for your advice, Beth, and I'm definitely going to give it careful consideration. I've got my heart set, though, on telling her what I want to do for her - and that I don't want to exceed that limit. I know it will make her angry - in fact, I think the fact that I'm being so calculating and cold with the "limit" (once a week, period) will be a continual burr in her side because it's, well, belittling I suppose. Also it takes her manipulative power away and puts the power in MY hands as to what I do with my life. However, I'm convinced I need a mantra, like "Once a week is all I can do, energy and stress-wise. Sorry but it has to be that way."

The problem I have had in the past is that I make resolution after resolution and then weaken when her call comes, without warning, asking for yet another frivolous errand or whatever. So I do what she says because I'm flummoxed or something, but fume fume fume, lay awake nights thinking of retorts I wish I'd used, and finally blow up at her when I can't take it anymore. I'm too slow and scared of her to quickly think of an excuse -- and the only excuse I have, usually, is that I'm home with my kids homeschooling, which is a very flexible thing - she knows I'm not going anywhere or having an appointment or busy at a workplace - she knows I'm always home and could finish the lessons later if I really wanted to.

Oh well, I've read enough of your blogs to truly KNOW that you're right -- and I'll re-read and re-read what you've said -- and IF I find the courage to go through with my plan, I'll let you know how it went! I also think that part of me wants her to get angry and stay angry - my happiest times are when she decides to "punish" me by not speaking to me for a while. I'd be in heaven if she wrote me off forever! And my husband and kids wouldn't care much - they tell me they feel uncomfortable when she's around too!

And you're absolutely right about what the "neighbors" say lol. I'm the odd (or maybe typical) person who's reclusive and has a fair amount of social phobia and I don't even WANT a lot of people in my life -- yet I hate to "lose face" or know by the looks they give me that she's been bad-mouthing me yet again. Isn't that ridiculous? It really IS true that logically, rationally, I do NOT care what they think -- I'm grateful to be let alone! I don't have any ambitions of being well-thought of in the community -- I just want to live my quiet life without being driving absolutely INSANE by a bullying mom who treats me like a chamber-maid she's irritated with. However, it's like a visceral, emotional "gut-reaction" to cower and feel dreadful when I get the disapproving looks or if one of the other older ladies chastises me for not coming to visit my mother more often. I guess what I really need to do is grow up, and even if I have to suffer slings and arrows, saving my own life and my other family relationships is worth it.

Beth McHugh (13211) 19 Jan 2009 10:09 PM

Hi Grizelda, good luck with it and let us know how it goes. Everything you say is very normal, let me reassure you, even if it is painful. If you need extra help down the track you can also contact me on http://youronlinecounselor.com Best wishes, Beth

LakeMedium (10) 21 Jan 2009 02:46 PM

Hi, I would like to assure others dealing with narcissists that they are universarily difficult and stressful to deal with. I am a clinical social worker in a post-graduate training program for psychoanalysis. The narcissist in our lives is my husband's mother. She is the most self-absorbed and mean-spirited person that I have ever dealt with on a personal basis. I have always know that I am not who she wanted her son to marry.

She has insulted every aspect of me including my parents and family. She has taken strange photos in my house and sent them to my parents i.e. pictures of our kids as babies and toddlers crying, a photo of my dtr.'s messy room after she was done playing dress up. She labeled this photo: "Anna trashes her room". My mother told me she throws such photos directly in the trash. She has told me I wasn't a "good mother to the kids" and "didn't change their diapers enough". She is very envious of my mother and sees her as a rival for the affection of the kids.

My husband is her only child, he has 4 half-brothers. She plays favorites among her step-granparents in a most overt and hurtful way. Her favorites are the "family losers" because they need her and they make her feel great and important. She pits family members against each other and spreads gossip. I have been bullied by one of these half-brothers in my own home. I confronted him and his wife on this matter and they admitted that either of them of no real relationship with her and that they have been very hurt by putting up with her over several decades. These are very smart people, its hard to understand why they would do her bidding. I see them as being victims of abuse who are identifying with the aggressor.

There is an inheritance involved and I believe that this is why family members are silent and let her have her own way. My husband's now deceased father never challenged her on anything and this plays a part as well. While my husband is in denial that others put up with her because of the inheritance he sees that she has serious problems. He has described as if she doesn't have a conscience. She certainly doesn't have a normal level of empathy for others feelings of rights.

I have writen letters to her about her behavior in the past. This only seems to anger her and make her more hostile towards me, her rival anyway. My husband has spoken to her. I have refused to visit her in her home for 3 years now but she is welcome in our home to visit my husband and our 2 kids. They are very young and are fond of her. Shes stays 3 days and visits 4-5xs per year. I try to keep my distance when she is here. My husband visits her without me and has gone once with our oldest child.

She complains that I don't bring the kids to see her and that I am keeping my husband from visiting his family. All of them are welcome here. These boundries are difficult but necessary.

Beth McHugh (13211) 22 Jan 2009 03:30 PM

Hi Lake Medium, take comfort in the fact that it is not really you your MIL dislikes, it would be any woman who threatens to take her son's affection. Under all that behavior is an intensely unhappy woman who uses power (and money in your case) to get love. She knows no other way. In some ways she is to be pitied, but you are too close to the situation to be able to do that on a permanent basis. Keep those boundaries up, and minimize contact as best you can without upsetting your marriage. Try to remember that there is nothing you can do to please her, so don't put extra pressure on yourself to change yourself to make her love you. Unfortunately she can't. If you give in, you will get something from her but it is not real love. Best wishes, Beth

LakeMedium (10) 24 Jan 2009 02:45 PM

Thank you, Beth. You are correct on all accounts. I do pity my husband's mother to some extent. I don't want to take my kids out of her life for either parties sake. I believe as they get older they will figure her out. She has blackend my name in the family because I haven't been to visit her in some time, though she is welcome to visit us in our home whenever she wants. She lives to states away. I have had so many hurtful and depressing holidays with my husband's family I just can't spend another one with them especially his mother. If she had no one else to spend Christmas with or Thanksgiving with I would invite her here but this is not the case. She is much more bold and hostile on her own turf.

If the other family members buy what she is selling so-to-speak I don't care, frankly. I don't have any real relationships with any of them despite spending alot of time visiting her and them in the early years of our marriage. I only require that they treat me respectfully in my own home. They are also welcome here and I host an annual get-together football weekend where all 4 of my half-brothers stay with our family. I encourage my husband to visit her and his family alone. He usually does not wish to do this.

I may visit her in the future in her home with my husband and the kids but I would stay for no more than 2 days and would try to stay out of the house and stay busy rather than sit around just waiting for something negative to happen. I realize she doesn't think that she has done anything wrong and that I am a bad person because I don't acknowledge her superiority. It will never change. Thanks again and to all others dealing with a similar situation please stay strong.

Beth McHugh (13211) 26 Jan 2009 04:26 PM

Hi Lake Medium, although the situation is not good, it does sound like you are managing reasonably well. Luckily your husband isn't a great fan of his mothers, that would make it harder to deal with. As she ages, her characteristics will increase and others will see that it is her not you.

airegin2001 (10) 29 Jan 2009 11:45 AM

Hi Beth,

This blog and your articles have been a wonderful help to me. I'm 33 and have been dealing with major issues with my mother, my entire life. My family, to the outside worlda, always looked pretty normal. I was raised fairly well, and I'm doing pretty well now. I always just assumed I was a "bad kid" growing up, even though, now looking back, I clearly wasn't. I just figured I was extra emotional - mostly because my mom and I would get in screaming matches every day - from about the age of 13 right through college. Usually the fights centered around me not doing my homework, or not practicing the piano "correctly." etc etc. She also always had to be right. ALWAYS. She was never wrong, even when the laws of physics had to be defied in order for her to be correct, she would never admit defeat. In fact, I've never once had my mother apologize to me.... ever.

When I graduated college, my mom left my dad and moved away to be with another man. I had a feeling she had been having an affair.

I always felt like I was, emotionally, far behind most of my friends. My first serious girlfriend came after college, and I had a lot of trouble discussing my feelings with her. Even when I got married, years later, I had trouble with my feelings. I would always get the question "well, how do you fell about xyz" - and I never knew how to answer that question. Unfortunately, my relationship ended in divorce... but I remember going through therapy and trying to describe how I "felt" about my wife. I remember being completely perplexed that I could never honestly describe how I felt.

Back to my mother. It reallly all started going downhill after she moved away. For the first year or so after my mother was away, she basically disappeared from my life. I rarely heard from her, and it was hard getting any information about what was going on in her life. Suddenly, one day, she came to visit and introduced me to her new husband. HUSBAND! She had gone off, met someone, bought a house with him, gotten engaged, and then married (twice! once while in Europe, and then to make sure it was legal, came back to the US and got married again with 30 of her closest friends..... except for me!). Needless to say, I was pretty upset. Why? Because my mother had gotten married and not told me! To her, though, this wasn't a big deal. My dad was even upset with me, because my mom sent him a letter telling him about it, so he called me wondering why I had been keeping it from him! So, anyway, I tried having some sort of rational conversation with my mom, but all that comes back is excuse after excuse after excuse. Never an apology. Never an "I'm sorry I hurt your feelings." The funny thing is, even though it's been about 5 years, SHE feels like she's apologized a million times and can't understand why I'd be upset. WHY? Because I never get closure with her on it.

Over the past 5 years, since she got re-married, things have been going down hill progressively. It seems that no matter what I do, it's never enough for my mom. I have trouble talking to her, because she gets stuck on topics. She constantly nags and criticizes. It's a joke to her. It's like she gets in these loops about certain topics and can't get out of it - usually about me doing she perceived as being dumb. I'll hear about something 20 times before we move on. It makes the conversations with her really really tiring.... so I try to get off the phone with her.... which only makes her more upset - because then I'm ignoring her.

So, anyway, about 6 months ago my mother and I got into a huge fight again - mostly about her guilting me over and over and over about not coming to visit her for an event she found really important. Unfortunately, I couldn't get out of work, and even though I apologized 500 times, she wouldn't let it go. I tried calling her on it - "Mom, please stop guilting me about this." And she would respond indignantly - "I'm not guilting you...... I'm just sooooooooo sad you can't come." JEEZ! After the conversation reached a head, I hung up and haven't spoken to her since.

About 2 months later, she finally wrote me an email. On the surface, it was a really nice email. Let's just forget about the past and move forward, blah blah blah, sis boom bah. You know the drill. The thing is, with my mom, she ALWAYS brushes stuff under the carpet, and I wasn't going to let that happen anymore. I needed for her to understand where I was coming from. So, I wrote her back. I wasn't mean, but I was firm. I told her how I felt, and how her actions made me feel. I told her that I felt like she didn't really consider my feelings, and how I felt like everything always revolved around her.

I'm betting, at this point, you can't probably tell what was coming.

Her response? It was.... well, I guess to be expected. Except, I didn't know my mom had NPD. So I was shocked.

She raged.... oh did she rage. She told me how I was a self-centered and sad nearly middle-aged man (I'm 33! middle-aged??) She brought up every single way that I've ever hurt her -- including when I "abandoned" her several years ago when she came to visit me. When she can to visit, my wife's grandmother passed, and I had to leave to go to the funeral. She couldn't care less about the funeral or someone dying - all she could care about was me abandoning her (especially considering that it was only for 24 hours, and her brother lived in town). In the note she told me that I OWED her a relationship - she didn't care if I was happy, but because she "wiped my [CENSORED]" as a baby, I now OWED it to her. She used the word "owe" quite a bit. She went on and on. She mocked me, she belittled me. She didn't validate anything I said.

The funny thing is, the note didn't hurt me as much as I thought it would. Why? Because it wasn't a note a rational parent would ever write to one of their children. I knew that, but I couldn't figure out what the problem was. I've since discovered what NPD is, and your blog, and it's been wonderful.

I still have guilt issues around my mom, in that, since I've cut off contact, I feel as though I'm doing something wrong. At the same time, it's been amazing the kind of stress relief that it's provided. Not having to deal with her, has been wonderful. I can't decide if I should re-connect with her or not. I can't decide if it's worthwhile. How does one know when they've been beaten down enough that enough is enough? My mom isn't a bad person - I know that.... so that makes it even harder.

Are there support groups for children of narcissistic parents?

-Doug

Beth McHugh (13211) 29 Jan 2009 05:36 PM

Hi Doung, Ha e you spoken to a therapist about your experiences. Getting a third party perspective could be really helpful for you at this stage since you have already physically but not quite emotioanlly detached from your mother. Best wishes, Beth

airegin2001 (10) 30 Jan 2009 08:01 AM

Hi Beth,

I haven't yet. I haven't quite figured out how to find a good therapist who would know something on the subject. Any recommendations? I live in DC....

Thanks!

-D

Beth McHugh (13211) 12 Feb 2009 04:50 PM

Sorry airegin, I can't personally recommend any therapists. Try looking under psychologists in the DC area an question them regarding their experience in dealing with NPD. Best wishes, Beth

Grizelda (241) 16 Feb 2009 01:06 PM

I finally did it! I wrote my mother to set out what I decided would be the "limits" or boundaries, and I explained that I could no longer drop everything and do her latest bidding, but I'd write down whatever her request was and get back to her the next day. Oh, and I even went farther than I originally planned to -- and told her that instead of every weekend, I'd invite her to my house once a month instead. Well, the first of these planned weekends was to be this past one, and she made other plans (invited her two siblings from out of town.) I honestly think she did it to make sure that *I* wasn't the one calling the shots -- and I'm anxiously awaiting her next move, but I wanted to comment on Doug's post.

I know EXACTLY how you feel when you say that you feel like you're doing something wrong. I KNEW Beth was right and the letter was a mistake -- yet it was part of that same syndrome. I would feel so horribly WRONG to just start acting distant and make excuses without EXPLAINING to her what the new "plan" was and that it was due to her throwing tantrums every time I even wanted to discuss an alternative to whatever she was ordering me to do.

I hope she'll do what she's always done when she "breaks up" with a lover or friend or even family member -- she writes them off and makes some extravagant break with her past and moves on, without a moment's pause. This time, though, will be harder because I'm an only child - and she'd also be breaking up with her two grandsons, who haven't really opposed her on anything yet so she still thinks they're grand (just wait till they say no about something though.)

Well, I'm babbling but I empathize so much with you, Doug. It's an uncomfortable weird feeling to feel like you've upset your mother and you don't know how you'll handle facing her wrath. Well, I don't know if that's how you feel -- but I'm dreading it so much. There were already so many snide comments about what a brat I was all my life, a hopeless mess, and I can't begin to imagine how much worse those comments will be after what I've done. Still, I'm hopeful that after the ice is broken and we get through the first re-connect one way or another, we'll be able to move forward, and I will find the gumption to stick to my "rules," as cold-hearted as they might seem to be to bystanders who don't know that the more I did for her, the more she took advantage of me, and was never grateful and never apologized to me once in her life, despite leaving fingernail marks on my face and legs constantly when I was little (from her rageful slaps when I wouldn't "get out from under" her.)

This is something I believe I had to do, but it's more mortifying than I expected it to be. As usual, I feel nobody really understands the tyranny she's had over me - I don't see how they could! Oh well, I have an appointment with a psychologist on Wed. but MAINLY I have you and all the posters here to thank for getting me out of my downward spiral of crying jags and sleepless nights when I'd tell her off and stand up to her again and again - but never had the courage to do it when she was actually there to listen!

Snowberry (16) 27 Feb 2009 12:46 PM

I have been following carefully from the sidelines and would just like to tell Grizelda that there is hope. After a couple of years of setting strict boundaries with my mother things have become quite tolerable which is a huge improvement for me. In the beginning she was angry and cruel. Then there was a long period of virtual silence and I thought she had cut me off as she has done with most of the rest of our family. (I should be so lucky). Then she tried being sweet, calling me 'dear' and 'honey' (words I have only ever heard used for the dog) and sending little gifts over with my dad. I saw this clearly as nothing but manipulation. Now, after all this time, she is cooly polite which is the closest thing to respect I have ever had. The bored, slightly irritated tone of voice is no longer and I even had them to dinner and she only slipped once, telling my husband to "shut up". Now she treats me as she would one of the neighbors. Pleasant and polite. It's still not easy to be around her, and I still envy people who have loving mothers, but in between seeing her is wonderful. I felt the same way as Grizelda in the beginning - as if I couldn't breathe and it kept me awake at night. Now I hardly think about it at all. It just doesn't seem important anymore. It only took me 60 + years but I feel as if the black curse has been lifted. So hang in there Grizelda. Things may well get better and I'm praying for you, but be prepared for some very wierd behavior that you haven't seen before. And I think the question about moral obligation may have a different answer for everyone. I actually feel as if I could move away now and I probably will. They are fine and when the day comes that they aren't fine I will try to help. But I don't owe them my own happiness. PS: I think being a recluse is part of all of this because I am socially inhibited, my sister is a serious hermit and my brother is quite withdrawn as well. Food for thought.

Grizelda (241) 01 Mar 2009 02:58 AM

Oh my - that's the dearest sweetest post, Snowberry! Thanks so much - and I'm sorry I didn't check this thread sooner! I made an extremely wordy post today on another of Beth's threads:

ttp://mental-health.families.com/blog/dealing-with-a-narcissistic-mother

My mother is HOPPING!!! furious to me -- and kept saying to my husband who visited her, "What is her son did this to her ?!?!?!? saying she had to make a request and wait till the next day....."

Well, I swear on everthing I hold dear that I would immediately assume that I had hurt him -- even if I wasn't clear how -- and I would apologize for what I'd done, ask for more details about it, and ESPECIALLY agree to do as he asked and be thrilled he was still willing to be part of my life, despite being hurt -- and I'd ask him to please think of any other suggestions he could make that would make his life better. I love my children and the last thing in the whole world I'd ever want is to make their lives more difficult. I'd much rather just give up being any part of their lives whatsoever, than to keep hurting them! I mean sheesh -- how could you even enjoy being around your child if you can tell they're upset and miserable and afraid... Oh well, it's very late and I'm not thinking clearly.

But I'll never ever forget your kind post - and your wishes and prayers for me! It's fascinating that you think social inhibition/reclusiveness can result from narcissistic abuse! Wow!! My mother's sister and brother are both extremely reclusive, even avoidant. I have some traits of "Avoidant Personality Disorder" though I struggle to force myself to, well, avoid the worst of the syndrome, in order for my husband and children not to be harmed by it. I wonder if my mother could have bullied them so much that it hurt them -- I know she managed to disinherit three of her siblings by forcing my grandmother to write them out of her will (she was jealous of them for -- oh I don't know, not having a lot of divorces like she had, I guess - or maybe just because they were there. She's jealous of most people, it seems.) Well, I've gotten off on a tangent again -- but just venting here tonight has meant the world to me. I think I can go forward not -- and it may mean "no contact" -- that's what I'm tending to think right now and my husband definitely agrees with me! He thinks if any contact needs to be made, he can do it. Thanks again -- and I'll never forget you -- any of you here, who've made an unbearable situation actually start to seem "fixable." (can't think of the right word - I need to get some sleep!)

Beth McHugh (13211) 01 Mar 2009 06:40 PM

See, anything is possible!

Beth McHugh (13211) 07 Jun 2009 09:14 PM

In order to further assist adult survivors of narcissistic parents I have provided additional resources in order to help break down the loneliness associated with this problem. By accessing my website at http://youronlinecounselor.com you will be able to participate in a new forum. Best wishes, Beth

janwag (15) 09 Jun 2009 10:56 PM

Narcisstic Mother Edit Delete I searched "dealing with selfish mothers" and found this site. Read some of the journal entries and alot sounded familiar. Dad abused us when we were young, he has since passed away and we have made our peace. I actually miss him. Anyways, Mom never acknowledge she knew about the abuse and when she was told her only response was to make sure it was known that she did not know this happen. No I'm sorry this happened or any other affection. Never really hear much until Dad passed away. Now we will help her, but it is never enough. Even while we are doing something she is onto the next thing we can do for her. Conversations are all about her. She doesn't even know her grandchildren's names. She will call and left a message and then leave a 2nd message saying I should at least have courtesy to call my mother back. Who talks like that? If I see her, I get angry. If I stay away, I tell myself I am entitled, but the old guilt rises up, but she can't help it...she's sick, etc. The moment we hang up the phone or leave her house after doing something for her, she is ready to criticize and complain to family and friends. She never worked a day in her life and I think my Dad gave in to what she wanted because it was easier. When she asked me a week after Dad passed why my sister hadn't called her mother in this time of need when her husband died. I said that my sister was dealing with this too. Mom said "why?" I said it was our father. No concept that anyone else was grieving. I finally got tired of her telling her friends how we don't call our own mother or take her anywhere. She says this regardless if we do something or not, so why bother? She honestly has no clue why no one wants to visit her? When I get mad and try to explain, she just says "what do you mean". It makes me want to scream. Her actions have been called evil on more than one ocassion. She certainly is manipulative and lies right to us. Even when we catch her in a lie, she lie's some more.

Beth McHugh (13211) 11 Jun 2009 06:53 PM

Hi Janwag, it certainly seems like you are dealing with an extremely self -centered person. Now that you know and understand a little more about the way these people operate, you may be able to better detach from her and her antics and therefore find some peace from all the years of manipulation and emotional detachment on her part. Best wishes, Beth

Alyx (6) 23 Jun 2009 03:06 PM

Hi Beth and Grizelda* (*Anna's website?) I discovered NPD only recently 5/29. It was a friday and I could not stop reading on the net what I had discovered. I don't even know how I landed on NPD but as I kept reading, it was the telling of my life's story as well as others here and other websites I have visited since then. Janwag I know your same story all too well as well. It is a shame that this disease is not more widely known or spoken about. Talk about a subject that should be on the morning or evening new, talk shows etc. I feel that we should scream to the rooftops about this mental disease and all the terror that comes from it. Why does not medical psychological profession just sweep it under the carpets? Why do I see consistenly bad clinical data such as 1% of the population and 75% of NPD's are men. BUNK! I have seen plenty to the contrary of this. Okay enough bellyaching! Beth, My father I believe was co-dependent 'N' and an enabler to the prime 'NPD' of the family my mother. She is 85 now and from what I have read aging N's just get worse, and I can see that. I have some dreamt up crazy drama to contend with almost on a weekly basis now. Some from faking being sick and dying to twisted reality events such as surveys coming in the mail are serious. There is not much I have found about aging N's and how to deal with them. I cannot do the NO CONTACT thing due to I am an only child and need to attend to her. I have learned in a short time since discovering her madness on how to understand where it comes from, but to deal with it on the other hand without blowing a gasket is what I could trully need some help with. How to counteract the crazy statements. Alyx

Beth McHugh (13211) 23 Jun 2009 07:24 PM

Hi Alyx, it is unfortunate that NPD is not better known, but the occurrence of the condition is not particularly high in the population it's just that when it occurs, it does so much damage. Many cases do go undiagnosed if only for the reason that people with narcissism do not seek therapy. If you would like further assistance in dealing iwith your own case, you can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com Best wishes, Beth

nitsnitz (5) 30 Jul 2009 04:27 AM

This is a common dilemma seems in almost all families, parent and kids have not mutual understanding and this leads to stress, depression and many more mental problems. Elinor has to talk to her mother in calm and decent manner so that he mother can also reply in positive manner. If you are not able to do then go form family counseling, individual therapy and group therapy sessions helps you to understand your parents and make parents to understand you. http://www.marriage-counselors.net/

bearwithme (71) 17 Aug 2009 03:32 PM

Reading these blogs astounds me. I relate so well. I have also blogged on the website Dealing with the N Mother in this same forum of articles.

I am 42 and had started therapy when I was 36 for anxiety and overall depression. In my mind, I am 6 years old knowing my mother has NPD and that I was raised under the most hateful, angry, self-serving, illogical, un-loving, fear driven, jealous, hypocrtitical regime called "mom." Whereas before, I thought it was all me--that something was wrong with me, I was stupid, not good enough, slow, different, a bad daughter, selfish, laughable,...I could go on and on. My third year of college, my Nmom was at the pinnacle of her venom spewing times. Her and my father were separating and/or divorcing and I got blown in the middle. Nmom abused me emotionally untill it crippled me, where she could kick me where she wanted to make her self feel better. She wanted me to be her glue to keep her together while I became unglued. She could not control her emotions and I was there to sponge them up.

I dropped out of college because after a few less than average grades, I was convinced that college was only for the better, smart, pretty people and ohhh no, I was definitely NOT one of them!

College was my dream of dreams, my passion, my love of life, my star to look upon, my salvation...but I was clinically depressed and had not the slighted idea.

My N mother was a raging, angry person. She turned me against my father, who was, by the way, a wonderful father. She robbed me of my childhood and I became an adulterated child (I think that's the term). Her issues and her life were first, mine was last. At a young age, I became her life counselor for everything from a bad marriage to my brother's substance abuse. I had to make her look good in front of her friends and her crazy family. She has NPD and is a thief in my life. I am working on NC but it is the hardest thing in the world to do.

My therapy was eye opening to say the least and these forums are a god-send.

The following is not easy to write but they are all true - I am actively working on it:

When people criticize me, I believe them and collapse--it is true, I suck! When confronted, I shake, palms sweat, my heart pounds and I spin out of control with fear and panic. When faced with an intellectual challenge, I immediately say, "I am not capable, I'm not very smart." When I make a mistake, I beat myself up and relive the embarassment day after day. When someone mistreats me, I feel as if I must have deserved it somehow then later, I stand up to that person in my bathroom mirror, over and over again, day after day, but never to the person who inflicted the pain, ever--I keep the anger and resentment inside. When I walk into a room, I feel as if people are looking at me in a negative way, I'm ugly or weird. In a group setting, I feel left out or that people aren't attracted to me but they are attracted to everyone else BUT me. When someone told me they loved me, it felt odd and untruthful-I was being set up.

You probably think I have so many psychological issues myself or have an inferiority complex or something. But I'm gettin' there. I am starting my life over and as I said, I am only six years old so I have a ways to go.

thank you all for being here.

Bearwithme

Grizelda (241) 15 Oct 2009 12:09 AM

I hope you have a good therapist and you are making progress on these issues - they're so tough, but unlike NPD, they are very treatable!

I was diagnosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder and Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and I was asked to start Cognitive Behavior Adjustment. (I got some books from Amazon to try treat myself because I don't have the money for longterm therapy.) But the main thing is, there are VERY successful programs for social phobia type issues, if that's what you have, and I just know you could overcome much of the damage caused by your abuse. Take care and please keep us updated. GOOD LUCK!

Beth McHugh (13211) 15 Oct 2009 02:17 AM

Hi Bearwithme, your mother has made you a "parentified child" but you already know what that means and feel like. However, you are recognizing both the actions of your mother and the effect they have had on you and unfortunatly still continue to do . You do not "suck", you are a valuable and worthwhile person. And you are not 6 years old either. Ironically it is your mother who is operating at that emotional level! You have long surpassed her and your depression and anxiety are evidence of that. They are telling you their is something wrong. Although you feel bad about your emotions and about yourself, they are like a cloak that your mother has placed on you and you have unquestioningly adopted. As any child would because our parents are gods when we are young. You can step out from your mother's shadow. Keep reading as much as you can about this disorder -- it follows a pattern and you can escape. Contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if you need additional help. Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 22 Oct 2009 05:33 PM

Just a reminder to all readers of the narcissism blogs that I have set up a forum specifically for adult children of NPDs. You can find it under "Forums" at my website at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Best wishes, Beth