Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother

Toadicus (10) 25 Jun 2007 01:52 PM

I find this very interesting. I have cut myself off from my Mother due to her self-centeredness and more. I have been dealing with it on a daily basis ever since. Its been a year plus a few months now, I still get phone messages and the odd e-mail....they all follow the same pattern, "how are you?...why don't I call or come by..." I have made my points so many times, same old conversation, then the next day, its like I was just talking to the wall .... after a few years of this, I just explained one last time, said I was leaving and didn't plan on coming by or calling any more and left. The following weekend and for months to come, I would get dinner invites and lunch requests, none of which I answered, followed by more messages that I have "missed" dinner here, or "stood up" them on a lunch there. Never, ever one single word about the major issues which 'caused this.....

Now, not a day goes past which I don't think about my mom, but I just can't afford to deal with her. I get real angry when i do talk to her, I mean was overboard, snapping teeth, locked jaw and I go red faced.

Beth McHugh (13211) 26 Jun 2007 10:59 PM

Dealing with a narcissistic mother is one of the more stressful and difficult aspects of being an adult child. As I mentioned in this series of articles on this disorder, other people do not really exist as separate entites to a narcissist, therefore you can try to get through to them till you are blue in the face to no avail. I am plannng another article on practical tips for dealing with narcisisstic people in the near future.

Toadicus (10) 27 Jun 2007 11:42 AM

I look forward to reading it. Something very weird has happened for me though, I have not been able to talk about this problem with anyone, but after writing, my first ever "Blog" I found myself a lot less angry at her and started to view her as very sick. It doesn't help to keep all the anger inside but I have never found an out let. I am suprised to find it is bleeding off. I almost feel like taking another attempt at contacting her.

I think i will wait until I can read the second part tho, no point rushing in on a whim.

Beth McHugh (13211) 29 Jun 2007 11:21 PM

If your mother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, she is actually suffering from a medical condition, although it is others who experience much of the "suffering." Perhaps realizing that she is ill rather than cruel and uncaring helps you to let go of much of the anger that these mothers inspire in their adult children. It will be a gradual process, this "letting go of hope" which is what is needed in dealing with narissistic parents.

margaretp (40) 03 Jul 2007 05:34 PM

Narcissistic mothers will attack and kill your spirit. Run for your life! I am 44 years old and have just discovered that her illness has a name. They lack total empathy and humility. These "mothers" need to be locked up in prison with the rest of the psychopaths. They have criminal intent. They cause pain and fear. They are pure evil. That is why the people around them fall apart and the Narcissistist is still standing. Next time you get assaulted by one of these "entities" call 911 instead.

julie333 (10) 20 Jul 2007 02:14 PM

i feel my mother has this disorder. she has always been critical and played me and me sister against each other. she can only be nice to one person at a time. if you are doing excactly what she wants you are her best friend but if you show your own mind and it is against her belieifs she can be really spitefull. i used to be there for her all the time, i felt really responsibe, she would always have a way of making you feel bad. we recently had a silly argument she told me to give her some space then she turned the whole argument around and stopped paying back the money that she owes me and my partner. she used the row as an excuse to justify not paying us. it was allot of money. she has told every one how awfull we are but will not mention the money. its like she lives in a selective world. she has double standards and a very negative personality. she is hard on me and my sister but spoils my brothers rotten to the point of covering up their mistakes. when i used to visit she would complain about everybody and everything. she recently sent me an email critising my abilities as a parent, partner and daughter. she has also said that she will never forgive me as we are moving away with our children and never to contact her again. i feel very sad because i have lost my mum but i also know that now i am 30 i have to make my own dcisions. i used to be scared of her and still am, i stood up to her and beause of that i have lost her. i know though that being around this type of person can only have a negative impact on your life, even if they are your mother. i love her to bits but sometimes the best thing to do is nothing and do whats right for you.

Beth McHugh (13211) 20 Jul 2007 04:39 PM

Julie, narcissistic mothers do live in a selective world. Be aware that in standing up to her and "losing her" you have not really lost anything. She cannot cope with any criticism and so she must pretend to herself that she is tossing you out. She needs this in order to feel good about herself. As she ages, she will get more difficult to deal with. I am planning an article on dealing with the aging narcissist. I think there will be many interested readers!

julie333 (10) 21 Jul 2007 05:33 AM

this rings very true i will look forward to reading your artile, thankyou

margaretp (40) 21 Jul 2007 01:01 PM

Dr. Scott Peck studied possesstion at the end of his career. He indicated that "possessed" people know there is something wrong with them. There is an internal struggle of the will.- The struggle being between the pure, good, God given spirit with an evil intruder. There is no internal struggle with the Narcissist. They are evil incarnate. Something has already won. This is why psychotherapy doesn't work on these people. The "truth" has to come from within. Secondly, Narcissists are not nurturers so they don't belong mothering anything. If you watch the Discovery Channel you'll see Apes, Bears, Fish, Bugs, Lions, etc., all protecting and nurturing their young. Not so with the Narcissist Mother. She is a breed of her own, and reflects nothing of what God instilled in his creatures. Sorry to be so blunt, but I have spent many years making excuses for my mother because she was my mother. If she fails to struggle with her evil ways, I have no other impression but that she is not from God.

Beth McHugh (13211) 21 Jul 2007 08:12 PM

Hi Julie333, I hope to get the aging narcissist article up and running soon. As you will read, life isn't easy for the aging narcissistic person, nor for their primary caregivers. But there is help! Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 21 Jul 2007 08:20 PM

I wouldn't describe a Narcissist as evil, although they can certainly perform acts that could be regarded as evil, but then so too do a lot of people. Narcissists do wound others, often very badly, and so much so that they need counseling help get out of the situation that they are in. I regard Narcissistic Personality Disorder, like all personality disorders, to be a developmental disorder, in this case a failure to learn empathy which occurs normally in early childhood. They are sick people who damage others. That said, they are also in their own form of pain, although they do admittedly cause tremendous pain to others. Psychotherapy doesn't appear to work, mainly because they don't seek help in the first place, because they do not see that they have a problem. I will be writing soon on the aging narcissistic, where it becomes apparent that not only are these people not evil, but are painfully human. It's just that it is very difficult to have sympathy for them, particularly if one has a narcissist as a parent. The latter is a very damaging life experience, but one that can, ultimately, be overcome.

margaretp (40) 21 Jul 2007 11:31 PM

I applaud your ability to view the Narcissist as having a "disorder." Where do we draw the line in their ability to abuse their children? If they didn't have feelings they wouldn't become so reactive about criticism. They must secretly know that they are hurting someone else's. I hold them responsible for their actions like any other human being. Because they mothered a child does not give them the freedom to abuse the child. It is illegal and violates the Constitution in this country. Emotional abuse is just as bad as physical abuse. It's just more deceptive. What is the definition of evil if not deceit, trickery,lies, lack of empathy,lack of humility,chaos and total disregard for another human being. This is more than a disorder. I've been told by a minister, now a Bishop, to stay away from my mother. What does that tell you?

Beth McHugh (13211) 21 Jul 2007 11:53 PM

Dear Margaret, I understand that you have been hurt by the very person that who should have provided you with a sense of love and protection from birth. Narcissists are unable to do this, as you have discovered. As a therapist, I am not ethically allowed to tell a person what to do as your bishop has done, but I do believe that some people are so destructive that they are best avoided. However, not everyone can completely let go of a parent for many reasons, some of which involve a sense of their own personal humanity. Therefore I cannot comment either way on what your bishop has said. What I do know is that if protective steps aren't taken, further damage can occur to the adult child of the narcissist. Any form of abuse is completely unacceptable, especially when it applies to children. However, it is possible that your mother has something other than than Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She would certainly need a diagnosis from a professional before any label could be used to describe her behavior.

margaretp (40) 22 Jul 2007 02:35 PM

I will behave myself now. I know this is a family forum. Thank you for listening. My mother has been under psychiatric care for over 25 years. She goes, not to learn and work on herself, but to pick up a perscription for zanax. Technically speaking, she is a drug addict. Between her alcoholism, drug addiction, narcissism and beyond, who would be able to know her plight. Therapy has not improved her, only made her worse. She lies to her psychiatrist. Any educated psychiatrist knows you don't give zanax to someone who drinks too much. The combination can be deadly. She is very wealthy so she has never had to work. EVERYTHING is about her. When my father was dying of melanoma in 2005, she got after hospice for not paying her more attention. These nice hospice workers were so confused by my mothers behavior. They had to keep reminding her that they were there at the house to tend to my father. She was jealous of the attention that my father was getting as he was dying. THAT is a blueblooded Narcissist. Even 9-11 was about her. She remarked, "I'm not going to be able to go to the airport anymore." It goes on. Thank you for your comments and I look forward to reading your article on the "Aging Narcissist." They do get worse with age. They are sick people who hurt others and need to be locked up in a mental institution.

Beth McHugh (13211) 22 Jul 2007 06:18 PM

Dear Margaret, I can see that you have had a terrible time with your mother, both as a child and now into adulthood. It sounds like she has a dual diagnosis: Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Substance Abuse Disorder. There may of course be others. Your description of her behavior while your father was dying is classic narcissism. The fact that she also has drug and alcohol issues does underline that, despite her unacceptable and hurtful behaviors, she is in pain herself. I am not saying this to excuse her or to minimize the pain she has caused you in any way. I'm saying it in an attempt to help you. You are very angry with your mother and I totally understand why, believe me. You have a right to be angry. She failed you as a mother. But sometimes these mothers can leave US with a profound sense that we are not good enough, and sometimes being able to see these mothers as ill themselves can help sever us from these mothers and be at peace with ourselves. She would have done this behavior to any child of hers, not just you - "Margaret" - . She did it to her husband. She's done it to the hospice workers. If you feel you would benefit from counseling please contact me. In the meantime, look after yourself and try to love yourself in small ways to make up for the enormous impact this woman has had on you.

robison6 (10) 11 Aug 2007 08:15 AM

I am very grateful to find this site as I find it quite encouraging to know that others out there are experiencing the same as myself and also made the choice to separate. I too have separated myself from my mother for a year and a half now. I previously viewed this as a temporary separation while I healed from the emotional wounds of my childhood and adult hood alike, but, because of the hateful reaction to my choice, the strong possibility of long term separation exists. My mother has turned my personal business into a â€Å"free for all” on her side of the family. Involving all that will listen to her story and enable her â€Å"bad behavior. I’ve had phone calls and letters sent my way stating their opinion, my brother received a phone call as to questioning what he was going to about this situation.. My son was targeted. I’ve not responded to any of them, I’ve just sat back and watched the chaos erupt, and what an amazing sight. It’s amazing because I’ve changed and can see how destructive NPD is to family. I’ve lost basic communication to several members of my mother’s family, but I can live with that, because the exchange is peace.

Beth McHugh (13211) 11 Aug 2007 04:12 PM

Hi Robison, Narcissistic mothers do shape our view of the world and most importantly, ourselves, until such time as we can step out of their shadow. Your decision to move away from your mother has resulted in chaos and nastiness; this is a demonstration that there was little love there to begin with. A different parent would be devastated and seek to sort out the situation. The narcissist cannot do this as it is too painful to be seen to "lose face". I wish you ccontinuing peace.

margaretp (40) 15 Aug 2007 09:47 PM

I've known people with other "disorders," like bi-polar disorder, ADD, etc. Although they had some behavioral difficulties I've never seen any of them want to cause harm to their children. The Narcissistic mother makes every attempt to destroy potential happiness for her children. This is why I can't understand the "disorder" category because of the intent. The intent is to destroy good. It is so clear and obvious. These websites are full of people getting abused, feeling powerless, because there is no justice going on. They are getting away with it because it's a "behavior." Well, It's the behavior from hell. They ruin all the lives around them and still remain calm. No one seems to be stopping these people from their daily destuction. Even if they were to end up in therapy, they'd lie to the therapist, so what good would that do? I am at a real loss when it comes to the Narcissist. I don't feel sorry for them. They know exactly what they are perpetrating. Isn't the impulsiveness to destroy other people enough to warrent an active response by our society? They are no different than the other abusers we identify in our culture. Why are they getting away with it?

Beth McHugh (13211) 16 Aug 2007 04:10 PM

Margaret, you need to accept a couple of facts. First is that the classification of emotional and developmental problems of any type is divided into many different disorders. These are all outlined and described in depth in the DSM-IV-TR. This is the industry standard that we psychologists and psychiatrists adhere to. Hence there are several types of mood disorders, anxiety disorders, eating disorders, substance abuse disorders: the list goes on. The word "disorder" refers to the fact that the behavior/feelings of the person concerned are outside of what is called the norm. Second, it is untrue that persons suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder are the only people who cause pain, both physical and emotional, to others. Substance abuse disorders would be one example. Children of chronic undiagnosed and untreated alcoholics suffer many aspects of abuse which affects their adult lives. Whenever a person suffering from a mental disorder or indeed, any person, steps outside our criminal guidelines, the law does step in. We all know the law is far frorm perfect. I have also spoken earlier that, although these people do hurt others, they are also in pain themselves. Let's look at your mother for example. She is a chronic alcoholic and drug abuser. There is no way she is a happy lady. Sure, she's not mature enough to deal with her unhappiness and takes it out on others instead, but the fact remains that she is ill. The very number of posts you have written suggests to me that you, yourself, are still suffering at the hands of this woman, still very angry, and that you need therapy yourself so that you can learn to let go of this hatred of your mother and start living your own life without your mother casting a long shadow over you. I challenge you to contact me for counseling. Beth

margaretp (40) 16 Aug 2007 05:57 PM

You are nice to offer your counsel. I have had about $30,000 worth of therapy on the subject through H Hazelton. They labeled her NPD and suggested I cut ties with her. I recently moved away from her at the suggestion of my present therapist. She too told me there was very little I could do but to totally remove her from my life. The anger stems from my mother not "owning" her own behavior and getting away with it abuse. Since I moved, my mother has tried to put me on a new guilt trip. It's the CONSISTENCY that I can't handle. If she tries to call me, the phone company is ready to deal with her. Thanks again for your imput.

Beth McHugh (13211) 16 Aug 2007 07:33 PM

Margaret, ask your therapist to help you work on the pain and anger you feel towards your mother because she isn't a "good" mother. This is the source of your unresolved anger and pain. You want (naturally) for her to be different; you want (naturally ) for her to hear you; you want (naturally) for her to acknowledge all that she has done to you. I can help you with all these issues if you wish. I am well acquainted with NPD and the pain it causes. You have done well to distance yourself for your mother, but for true peace there is a part of yourself that you must change - which has nothing to do with your mother. Again, if you feel I can help you, please contact me. Beth

SpiritWarrior (5) 30 Aug 2007 10:10 AM

Ms McHugh, Your insight into this disorder is very comforting. I only just sought out grievance concilling ( i'm 31 ) because my mother is dying and I was having a tremendous time trying to deal with the fact that time is running short and I feel like I have to face 31 years of pain my mother caused me for when she dies. I realize that is not possible..now..! But in the first and only session - my councillor diagnosed my mother with NPD and now it all makes sense. I have been through absolute hell with her and back again but I have learned to keep her at a seriously long arm's length and only tell her what I don't mind being thrown back in my face at any given time she pleases. I have quit smoking after 12 years, lost 50lbs (and now plateauing) and in a warm, loving and long-term relationship with an amazing and nurturing man.

I have changed my life around and broken her spell over me years back but she still continues to plague me because now she is sick with cancer and still able to walk and speak - she still does damage. I try to explain to others that when she goes - I will be relieved that she is finally gone and out of my life for good. I know that is a hard thing for some to believe or hear but they don't know what I have been through. I am starting to grasp that I will never have the acknowledgement or apology of the abuse that went on only today. I haven't seen her in weeks and I don't really want to - in fear that she will still hurt me with words. All I feel is that when she is finally gone - she will no longer have that power in my life (power a child gives to a parent) to hurt me or to break my heart ever again. That way...I can think about the very few good things about her and let the bad stuff lay to rest. I know the horror of how to live in pain, guilt, sorrow, depression, fear, anxiety, anger, rage, frustration and I don't want any of it anymore - but still... I don't know what to say to her in her final days. I thought of trying to say to her that wether or not she knows it that she broke my heart many times in life and that I broke her heart and I am sorry for it. The hard thing is... I have this anxiety that it won't go over well and I battle with guilt from the obligation of being the daughter for not visiting her enough or wanting to see her at all.

Bloody morals. :-)

Beth McHugh (13211) 30 Aug 2007 03:46 PM

Hi SpiritWarrior, treading that fine line between being humane and being abused is a difficult one, especially when the narcissistic parent is aging, or in your case, dying. And deciding whether to tell her before she dies how much she has hurt you is also a dilemma that requires serious thought about why you are doing it. It is a very difficult situation dealing with a narcissistic parent, as nothing can really be successfully resolved between parent and child; the adult child must come to a place of peace themselves. You sound like your life is going well despite your mother's influence. You might like to read: http://mental-health.families.com/blog/why-it-can-be-hard-to-lose-a-parent-you-dislike-2 if you haven't done so already. Should you need help in dealing with guilt or grief, please don't hesitate to contact me.

sadsusie (5) 04 Sep 2007 04:17 PM

I didn't realize that there was anything abnormal about both of my parents until I worked up the courage to tell them that I deserve to be treated like an adult, not a child. My Father is an alcoholic and my Mother is most definitely an undiagnosed NPD. So far, I have not seen either of them since January but, I keep getting nasty emails from my Mother. I have decided that a total cutoff is the only way to save my sanity. It makes me so rageful and sad to know that they are going to miss out on so many things simply because of their "illnesses." I can't help but feel hatred toward both of them. My whole life, I was afraid of stepping out of line; of displeasing them. I would love to get counseling for this but, I work full time and I go to school full time. The counselor that I was seeing was vague and sat there the entire 3 months just shaking his head and saying, "Oh, you poor thing." I have found that books like, "Emotional Blackmail" and "Toxic Parents" have helped. Both of those books describe my parents to a "T." I don't know what I would've done without them.

Beth McHugh (13211) 04 Sep 2007 05:02 PM

Hi Susie, you can read further articles on NPD by clicking on the NPD link above, if you haven't already done so. NPD is one of my personal interests in counseling, if I can be of assistance to you, simply click on my name above. Good luck in dealing with both your parents, it is a difficult situation but at least you are not exposing yourself to daily doses of them. Dealing with a narcissist is particularly tricky as they are very aware of your "weak" points , as I mention in one of my latter articles.

allgrownupnow (11) 11 Oct 2007 08:42 PM

This all sounds so familiar. I was recently in therapy with my parents (narcissistic mother and bullied, enabling father) to try to re-connect after my parents convinced most of my family to boycott my wedding (had to ask my parents not to come after my mother threatened to misbehave - she didn't feel she had been "involved enough in the planning" and my father defended her), then tried to extort money from me (they wanted their "investment" back from a home I was selling to buy another home in an area closer to where I work) to further punish me for standing up for myself and my husband. My mother has quit working with me and our therapist; what I was telling her about MY feelings was too hard for HER to hear. I feel badly, sometimes, that my parents don't really know my infant daughter, but my therapist says I need to stop thinking, "I should..." and start thinking, "I want..." I wish there were some way to have some kind of healthy relationship with them, but I come away from every interaction with them feeling badly about myself, not because I've done something wrong but because I feel as though they are looking down their noses at me and that I will never measure up. BUT I know that I can't really have a healthy relationship with my mother because of her limitations, and I am grieving that now, working on taking care of myself in the way my mother should have taken care of me but never could have. Books that have helped me are "Drama of the Gifted Child" and "Trapped in the Mirror".

Beth McHugh (13211) 11 Oct 2007 09:14 PM

Hi Allgrownupnow, keep working with your therapist and try to let out the grief that you will not be able to have a healthy relationship with your mother. There is no time frame for this process, it will come and go in cycles. As you probably know, your mother is sadly incapable of having a normal loving relationship with anyone, unfortunately that includes you. It is a very difficult situation to deal with, as the grief involves your mother, the person who one expects will love us unconditionally. I'm sure your therapist will explain that your mother has an illness, and it is not one that she will ever seek treatment for, as you have experienced. If you feel I can be of any assistance to you , don't hesitate to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

ALstepmom (10) 12 Oct 2007 08:47 AM

My situation is a bit different. I do not have a Narcissistic mother, but my stepson does. My husband stayed with his ex-wife for years because of their son, but finally just could not deal with her anymore. He simply said that she was crazy and he couldn’t take it. Her behavior was so baffling to me, so I started reading up on personality disorders and I am convinced that she has NPD. Because she is narcissistic, she completely blames my husband for their divorce. Nothing is ever her fault. According to her, she was the perfect wife and mother and is just an innocent victim. She has told anyone who will listen, including their son, that my husband just walked out on her with no warning. This is not true. According to my husband, he urged her to seek some counseling. When she refused, they discussed divorce for months prior to his leaving. She now thinks that she is entitled to make all decisions regarding their son. She also constantly asks for extra money (he pays her quite a large sum each month in child support already) and believes that we should give to her because â€Å"she deserves it”. If he doesn’t give it to her, she tells his son that daddy won’t give them any money. My concern is for my stepson. He seems so desperate to please his mother. We are supposed to have him at our house every other weekend. He often cries and tells his mother that he doesn’t want to come and stay with us. I believe he acts that way because he thinks that’s what she wants. He told my husband that he worries about her because she is all alone without him there. He is 12 years old. He never spends the night with any of his friends because he doesn’t want to leave his mother alone. He has told us that she needs him with her because of â€Å"everything she has been through”. It’s just not normal for a 12 year old to worry so much about keeping his mother happy. He should be enjoying these years. Anytime we want to take him on a trip or do something fun with him or just get him for the weekend, it’s a battle to pry him away from his mother. My husband finally has to tell him that he’s coming with us and it’s not an option. He hates doing that, but it’s the only way we will ever be able to get him to spend any time with us. Once he’s away from his mother, he’s fine and has a good time. However, he calls her several times a day to check on her.

ALstepmom (10) 12 Oct 2007 08:51 AM

My previous post has some strange characters in it, so I redid it... My situation is a bit different. I do not have a Narcissistic mother, but my stepson does. My husband stayed with his ex-wife for years because of their son, but finally just could not deal with her anymore. He simply said that she was crazy and he couldn't take it. Her behavior was so baffling to me, so I started reading up on personality disorders and I am convinced that she has NPD. Because she is narcissistic, she completely blames my husband for their divorce. Nothing is ever her fault. According to her, she was the perfect wife and mother and is just an innocent victim. She has told anyone who will listen, including their son, that my husband just walked out on her with no warning. This is not true. According to my husband, he urged her to seek some counseling. When she refused, they discussed divorce for months prior to his leaving. She now thinks that she is entitled to make all decisions regarding their son. She also constantly asks for extra money (he pays her quite a large sum each month in child support already) and believes that we should give to her because "she deserves it". If he doesn't give it to her, she tells his son that daddy won't give them any money. My concern is for my stepson. He seems so desperate to please his mother. We are supposed to have him at our house every other weekend. He often cries and tells his mother that he doesn't want to come and stay with us. I believe he acts that way because he thinks that's what she wants. He told my husband that he worries about her because she is all alone without him there. He is 12 years old. He never spends the night with any of his friends because he doesn't want to leave his mother alone. He has told us that she needs him with her because of "everything she has been through". It's just not normal for a 12 year old to worry so much about keeping his mother happy. He should be enjoying these years. Anytime we want to take him on a trip or do something fun with him or just get him for the weekend, it's a battle to pry him away from his mother. My husband finally has to tell him that he's coming with us and it's not an option. He hates doing that, but it's the only way we will ever be able to get him to spend any time with us. Once he's away from his mother, he's fine and has a good time. However, he calls her several times a day to check on her.

Beth McHugh (13211) 12 Oct 2007 03:24 PM

Hi, ALstepmom,I can't say from your post whether your husband's ex has NPD. However there certainly seems to be an unhealthy mother-son relationship occurring. At the very least the mother is making her son feel responsible for her welfare, and this will cause distress to the child. My suggestion would be that your husband speaks to a therapist and details what is going on. If he would like a diagnosis of his ex-wife, I can assist him with that. If the mother has NPD, she will resist therapy. Depending on the outcome of any assessment, it may be necessary to seek counseling for your stepson. He is too young to see how this behavior is affecting him, therefore your husband may need to be more proactive in the matter. You can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

allgrownupnow (11) 13 Oct 2007 11:44 AM

I feel for ALstepmom's stepson. If your stepson's relationship with his mother is like the relationship I have with my mother, he feels he is betraying his mother for loving or even spending any time at all with someone (his father) who his mother is at odds with. I remember feeling that I was being disloyal for being cheerful or even smiling when my mother was in a bad mood. I think that all you can do, other than maybe getting him some counselling, is to be as loving and supportive as you can. There were a few adults in my life when I was a child who were like pseudoparents, and I feel that they helped me because they gave me a little perspective. I knew that in my affectionless family wasn't normal when I saw these other adults pull their children into their laps and cuddle them, something my parents never did. It made me realize that I wasn't weak or weird for wanting attention and affection, rather that my parents had some weird hangup because they weren't able to give it. Your stepson is even luckier because he has a real dad and stepmom who are able to give him this. Good luck to you and your family.

Onmyown (5) 16 Oct 2007 05:55 AM

Ive just got off the phone to my Narcisistic/Borderline Mother. The conversation was fine until she asked me what I had been up to. When I told her that I was busy and that I was going to buy property and invest my retirement fund - she hit the roof. She said to me that when it all falls apart - dont expect her to come and help. She would not bail me out.

Here is the kicker. Im a 40 year old banker and have worked in financial services for 15 years. I have been a VP at 2 US Investment banks and have advised major corporations on how to manage their liquidity yet My mother thinks that Im incompetant.

Tonight I learned a BIG lesson. Its always about her and not me. I need to ignore this crazy witch and back myself. For my whole life I have been keeping her happy by not doing certain things - No longer!

Beth McHugh (13211) 16 Oct 2007 03:23 PM

Hi Onmyown, you mother is unable to cope with your success, as it highlights her own inadequacies. However, she may rave about you to other parents when they are discussing the successes of their offspring - then you would become HER success story. Great that you are slowly coming to grips with the reality of you mother. Nothing like a phone call like that one to strengthen your resolve!

sharlamay (25) 04 Nov 2007 09:13 AM

Hi talking about Mom. I'm now 52 years old and live over seas thank God and I always thought my problem was my step dad even though my psychiatrist at age 16 told me it wasn't. He wouldn't tell me it was Mom because he said he was afraid of a law suit. However in 1994 when I went home all we did, Mom and I, was argue and Mom got really nasty. She said "all I have to do is to say one word to your Dad and he would throw you out like that". To tell you the truth I wish I'd gathered my things and left as it has never gotten any better. I told Mom her house was full of gifts I'd given her but she can't even send a T-shirt to her Grandson for his birthday nor cares to get to know him. Mom is rich, when she remarried she married a provider 12 years her junior. He built her a fabulous house that she won't even clean in a vary expensive neighborhood. Mom hates her neighbors and complains about them all the time even when walking with me and wasting what little precious time she has with me. My husband and I went to see my parents last year. My husband hadn't been back to see them in 15 years. He worked in their garden and also their renters garden, we walked to the grocery store and bought grocery's and cooked meals for them since she doesn't do that anymore either. I cleaned the house as best I could but saw it wasn't worth my time as she didn't care. They decided, mostly my step dad, that they would open an account in my name to put "Xmas and birthday" money on it instead of sending gifts. I said o.k. and they told me to let it collect and so I thought to put my son's name on the account along with hers and mine. I thanked them both for the account but Mom didn't seem to like the idea after all and kept saying "I'm not going to do anything about that account", out of the blue for no reason but to irritate me. I've learned over the ages not to give into her tyrants, though, as SHE IS ALWAYS RIGHT! The thing that hurt me the most is when I was asleep on the couch at 2 in the morning and she came down stairs and said she wanted "to discuss" something with me. The word "discuss" being a warning bell for me, she then said after a moment of silence that the money was not so my husband could use it. I just looked at her and said "what are you talking about?" She said "Well, just listen and I'll tell you, and I answered "no way this is my husband your talking about and he has no interest what so ever in that account- I'm going to bed". But as I was half way up the stairs she said in her evil mean voice "well maybe we shouldn't do this?" I said "do what?"(thinking she meant the account) and she said "discuss this" I said "what is there to discuss if you don't trust him"? She then got all evil and furious and literally roared "I DIDN'T SAY THAT-GO TO BED!" Mom si evil and the insults she inflicts are just so horrible. I just looked at her with pleading eyes, but not saying anything though I wondered "why can't you appreciate and love us? My God your lucky and so many people would have been able to appreciate and love us without having to rip my heart out for you all the time.!" I felt sorry for my husband after he worked so hard and long in her garden instead of enjoying his vacation time. Now Mom isn't contacting me and I'm all out of giving to get nothing in return but hateful attacks. I do think these narcissists are evil-you can just see it in their eyes when they are defied because you aren't giving them enough of their narcissist supplies

Beth McHugh (13211) 04 Nov 2007 02:29 PM

Hi Sharlamay, dealing with a narcissist, particularly a narcissistic mother, is a very difficult role to be given to a child. Often it takes decades to work out exactly what the problem is, and not before losing self-esteem and suffering enormous pain. Perhaps reading all the articles in this series may help you. If you would like further assistance in extracting yourself from your mother's influence and healing the pain of the damage she has caused please contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

sarah4444 (5) 08 Nov 2007 09:28 AM

Hi,

I have an aging narcissistic mother who is now threatening to destroy the wondeful life I have finally been able to establish after a lifetime of abuse. Are there any great books that you can recommend how I can due my duty as a daughter but not let my mother destroy my immediate family. Many thanks.

sharlamay (25) 08 Nov 2007 10:41 AM

I found the movie "White Oleander" with Michelle Pfeiffer to be an amazing accurate of what a narcisstic destructive mother is like. It was a wonderful interpetation also by the actress that played her daughter, Alison Lohman.

sharlamay (25) 08 Nov 2007 11:26 AM

Another great movie "SHINE" (1996)based on a true story about a piano player, David Helfgott, and the devastating effects his narcissistic father had on him and how he survived in spite of him. I've read some books but they didn't help much because I still felt really alone in dealing with "My Problem" as nobody else seemed to be able to understand me as Mom is good at victimizing to other family members making me into the black sheep of the family. By the way would you please delete my first comment for me as I don't feel safe even with this. I do think I'll try the online counceling as I have to have help somehow. You see I both love and feel rage for Mom. I also think I'm a sort of "bad seed" for feeling any ill will towards Mom but I wasn't given any other choice. Get it?

Beth McHugh (13211) 08 Nov 2007 02:19 PM

Hi Sarah444, it's great to hear that you have managed to establish a life away from your mother. There are not really a lot of "how to" books on dealing with narcissistic parents. Most are more fact and diagnosis based. That is why I have written so many articles on the condition, as it is a difficult life problem to deal with. The reality is that each case is different as children of a narcissistic parent are at different stages of recovery and the parent may be at varying levels of narcissism. As narcissists age, they become even more difficult and more of a challenge. This is because the adult child may have so many unresolved feelings about their mother, ranging from rage to wanting love (surely it will come at the end of life?) There is also the difficult issue of how to be humane to your aging mother without getting sucked into her vortex of pain and abuse. If you think I could be of assistance to you please don't hesitate to contact me at http://youronlinecouselor.com

Beth McHugh (13211) 08 Nov 2007 02:29 PM

Hi Sharlamay, books can be helpful in that they successfully describe the characteristics of a narcissist, but they often lack the practical side of how to deal with all the manipulation and abuse that comes with the condition. And we wouldn't want any child of a narcissistic parent to end up like David Helfgott, he didn't really survive the ordeal too well as unfortunately he had a mental disorder of his own! I understand perfectly how you can feel both love and hate toward your mother and it is this ambiguity that causes you to remain in the painful position you are in. We have many messages given to us as children that we should love our parents and how they should love us in return and part of the problem is the false set of beliefs we have about our narcissistic parents. People can, and do, get out of this situation intact and go on to live happier lives. That is not to say that tere is no scar, only that the scar is healed over and not being constantly ripped open. Please contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if you feel you need some guidance getting through the difficult aging process of your mother which intensifies the narcissism. Best wishes, Beth

sharlamay (25) 09 Nov 2007 08:59 AM

I still can't delete that first long entry, 04 Nov 2007 07:13 AM, I made so if you can please do it for me? I don't think I'll ever get over my Mother as she is so "perfect". It's hard to find flaws in perfect people and her very rare times she was loving was like an irresistible cool mountain stream on a very hot and thirsty day so long ago but my memory clings to it and I'm obsessed with how to please Mom one more time. I don't think it's going to happen, you know, and I've decided not to roll with the punches anymore because in doing so I roll right over myself and my right to feel. I wonder if you could suggest a book Beth? I didn't realise you had written books also on the subject. I think this forum is a life saver for those of us who have to struggle with this problem that often times other family members don't really know what is really going on. I have a half brother and stepdad that both enable Mom.

Beth McHugh (13211) 09 Nov 2007 02:57 PM

Hi Sharlamay, it really concerns me that you are in so much pain regarding your mother and the need to please her. As your mother gets older the trap will spring tighter so it's very important for you to seek help so that you will be better able to cope when that time comes. Life is very hard to deal with when you're on this side of the narcissistic trap and coming out on the other side brings so much freedom that you will look back and wonder why you once felt so trapped and angry at your mother. However there is also so much pain and heartbreak for children of narcissists that it can seem a daunting task. It can be a hard time getting through the therapy but it's worth it. As I mentioned in a previous comment I have written numerous articles on NPD since there is not a lot of practical guides available. Besides everyone's situation is different. Reading the articles will start to give you an insight into just what you are up against. I have tried deleting your comment as well, with no success. BTW, the fact that your half-brother and your stepdad both permit your mother's behavior is not unusual under the circumstances. They have chosen, either consciously or unconsciously, not to rock the boat.

sharlamay (25) 09 Nov 2007 07:13 PM

Yes well psychiatrists over here just gave me allot of medication until I was completely wack-o and had to be hospitalized. I presented the problem to the one even reading one of Mom's famous hate letters and he all but laughed it off- Do you think you could help me?

Beth McHugh (13211) 09 Nov 2007 08:48 PM

Oh dear, it is so irresponsible to give you medication for this situation since you are behaving in a completely normal way to the situation you find yourself in with your mother. I'm sorry that you had to go through that terrible experience. I'm a psychologist not a psychiatrist so I wouldn't be giving you drugs that send you into hospital and I wouldn't be minimizing the damage that narcissistic people, mothers in particular, can do to their children. I would look at the beliefs you have about your mother, and attempt to address the justifiable pain and anger, but then look at ways to change YOU, since we cannot change your mother. Once you change the way you see your mother, and express the pain she has caused you, you will be able to think about, talk about and and even deal with your mother in a healthier way. I am not saying it is easy. It isn't, as you have to face certain truths about your mother. The reality is, though, that you have known these truths deep down since you were a little girl. It is not facing them that is causing the pain. Contact me if you think we could work together. Best wishes, Beth

ceallach (5) 18 Nov 2007 11:49 AM

I had written a blog on my struggle with my mom and a very nice commenter directed me to this page and boy am I glad she did. Beth, thank you for this article. I of course see my own mother in this article and in every other comment listed here. I learned about narcissistic personality disorder years ago when my pastor tried to help my mom. He also had a master's degree in psychology so I feel he knew what he was saying when he told me that she was suffering from depression and narcissistic personality disorder. He said that she essentially refused help from him. He advised me to set boundaries, decide what I could and could not handle. I did, and like others here, it's been a year and four months since I cut my mom out of my life. I grew up not knowing what was going on only that I could never make my mom happy. Her favorite form of emotional abuse was the silent treatment, which I'm sure others here are familiar with. Whenever I didn't make her happy she would just stop speaking to me. When she decided I suffered enough she would go back to acting normal, for her, and behave as if nothing had ever happened. I remember being as young as five and her refusing to speak to me, play with me, or even look at me. It was always so difficult to live with her. You never knew with her when she was going to blow her top and then you had days or weeks of the silent treatment. When I was 12 she told me that MY purpose in life was to love her, be there for her, and make her happy. She didn't come to my wedding because she said, I hurt her feelings because I was putting my wedding before her. One year and four months ago, when my daughter was just 10 months old, she got mad at me because I wouldn't come to her house and clean out raw sewage that had seeped into her basement. After that silent treatment I told her that I was done. I had warned her after my wedding that the next silent treatment would be permanent. As of today she is still refusing to apologize to me, I told her an apology would be required to get back into my family's life. She recently told my dad that, "I always apologized to my mother. I am not apologizing to her." She's never in her life apologized or even admitted wrong in anything. (Yes her mother, my grandmother was emotionally abusive and may have had the same disorder.)

Now as a mom I am struggling to do things better. I'm not perfect but it is hard to be a mom when you didn't really have a mom. I've read books and lean on trusted parents/friends I know to learn a different way of doing things. With my mom out of my life my own personality is changing. I am more outgoing, friendly, and well joyful. I do miss my mom and really would love a real relationship with her. I have already come to the conclusion this is unlikely. But I do have a sense of peace in that I am protecting my marriage and my daughter from her.

If you write more articles on this I would love to read them. Thank you for the article and thanks to all the previous posters. It is a help to know I'm not alone. Ceallach

Beth McHugh (13211) 18 Nov 2007 02:03 PM

Hi Ceallach, glad you enjoyed the article and well done in extricating yourself from this situation with your mother. It can take years to work out exactly what is wrong with these people, in the meantime much damage can be done. But you have done a excellent job in setting a firm boundary and keeping it. Of course, it is only natural from time to time to wish you had a more responsive mother and that is normal, as long as it doesn't consume you. Your daughter is lucky that you have been able to draw a line between her and her grandmother. People with NPD have no qualms about moving on to the next generation when it comes along. I have written 13 articles to date on NPD. You can find them at http://mental-health.families.com/blog/ and then click on Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Best wishes, Beth

grandmalynda (10) 11 Jan 2008 05:31 AM

Please help me to help my 6 yr old grandson. My ex-daughter in law is so totally narcisstic: lies a lot, delusions of grandeur, considers she is entitled to a much better life, overspends on clothes and expensive haircare for herself, uses people as sources of supply to her total absorption whether negative or positive, constantly tells people what a special person she is, manipulates people to her own ends and then drops them when they are no longer useful, considers that most people are envious of her, often tells my grandson she is not his friend if he doesn't do something she wants him to etc. etc. Already he is showing signs of her abusive behaviour: when he stays at our house he has the need to ring his mummy to tell her he still loves her and needs to tell her he is only staying one night, he has reverted back to bedwetting, despite having always wanted a brother or sister he now says he doesn't want one as mummy and daddy will stop loving him He adores both grandma and grandad and has become clingy to us both, he shares intimate moments with me where (often through his teddy bear) he will tell me things like what teddy thought today and what people said to teddy today etc. etc. I know he is telling me his own thoughts and feelings but using his teddy and I try to be as supportive and non-reactional as possible whilst inside my heart is breaking. As a matter of interest, ex-DIL is the child of alcoholic parents and was, up until meeting my son, often slapped around at home and made to look after her younger siblings in her early years, her father died just 2 years ago. Now that my son and her are divorced her mother has been brought back on the scene to look after my grandson whilst his mother works unfriendly hours. As a point of interest, it is very rare he wets the bed when with us. His daddy works away from home but hopes to change this soon, my grandson stays with daddy on a regular basis when he is home but i know they both miss each other terribly when he's away. What can I do to help my beautiful grandson from becoming a damaged victim?????

grandmalynda (10) 11 Jan 2008 09:30 AM

Please don't think of me as an over-reactive in law, the examples I gave you are just a few of very very many. Since the beginning of December my poor grandson has had a dreadful cough and has suddenly stopped eating whilst at home, he has gone terribly thin and we don't know whether his once healthy appetite has gone as a result of the cough or as a means of control (!!!!) Incidentally, my grandson loved going to school however, his mother has now secured lots of voluntary work there and is at school most days often 'reading' with his class, suddenly he no longer likes going to school and shows distress saying he doesn't like his teacher. His maternal nanny (the alcoholic) takes him to school and collects him each day apart from one day a week when I collect him. Maybe I am over-reacting!!!!!

Beth McHugh (13211) 11 Jan 2008 03:59 PM

Hi Lynda, it's really up to your son to step in and make some changes in this situation, as grandparents have such limited power in these cases. Your son moving back home would definitely help. Is he aware of the level of his son's distress? It may be a good idea for your grandson to speak to a child psychologist also, as his mother's behaviors will then become apparent to the therapist and steps can be put in place to at least limit her input. Your grandson sounds very fearful, caught between loving his mother and not feeling loved. It is important that you and your husband try to maintain as normal a life for him as possible, at least when he is with you. Keep up the Teddy-talk, do not shower him with material gifts but with real love and attention. He needs stability in his life and will do so for many years. You can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if you need further help. Best wishes, Beth

Notabrat (30) 15 Jan 2008 10:48 AM

Oh- I wish I'd found this site earlier......I'm 52 years old. I have been in and out of therapy most of my adult life, but wasn't able to really identify the problem and somehow thought it was me, I was an emotional hypochondriac. It is only because I have a dear friend whose known me since I was 13 - and she would tell me "It's not you, there was something really wrong in your family." Now I know I wasn't crazy - my mother is a narcissist. Way too many painful things to list here - but in July 2005, my brother went out into a farmer's field and shot himself in the head. He died 3 days later. From my mother's perspective - the main point was that he was surrounded by a SWAT Team at the time, and she was fixated on the drama of it all!!!!! When I went home for the funeral- all she could talk about was all the wonderful support she was getting in her small town - how the hairdresser didn't charge her for the haircut etc. The last time I saw my brother, he'd said to me "She'll never apologize - she's whacked" and I realize now how right he was. She's whacked - as in crazy - and we ( I had two brothers) are the ones who lived in her insane asylum. I'm sooooo angry- sooo incredibly angry. She's very, very lucky that I live so far away. I've never hit anyone in my life - but if I saw her I would absolutely hit her - maybe whip out a belt, or a flyswatter or a wooden spoon and see how she likes it. I would give her a taste of all the things she did to us - and I would feel absolutely justified in doing it. They are still charging and punishing any Holocaust criminals they find - why should abusive parents be any different. The abuse lives on. My brothers and I were smart, funny and very nice kids. The brother who still survives is an alcoholic who lives paycheck to paycheck - full of anger, resentment and I think he's becoming a little demented himself. I look after him as best I can. i have a great husband, reasonable career - but no sense of my self. I'm absolutely outraged to see the reality of her influence on our lives - and that she seems to be getting off scot free. I feel guilt - yes, but much, much more- I feel angry. I want to "tell on her" but the people I need to tell - ( my grandmother, my father) are dead. I have tried to confront her by phone and by email - first she denies things, then hangs up - saying "I have more important things to worry about". If I flew to her small town - tied her up and hurt her, I'd get in trouble - but at least it would be all over the newspapers, and the shame/humiliation of it would be the closes thing to pain that she can feel.

Notabrat (30) 15 Jan 2008 11:04 AM

I want to clarify - The SWAT team had been called because my brother was seen leaving his house and getting into his truck with a gun in his hand. So, the SWAT team was there because he was about to commit suicide - it's not that he shot the gun because he was surrounded by police. My brother had been working and living like a normal /law abiding person for the last 8 years before he died. Interestingly, he hadn't spoken to my mother in the last 7, and they were the happiest years of his life.

robison6 (10) 17 Jan 2008 12:19 PM

I was wondering about how to communicate with the NPD mother? As I mentioned early on I have been separated for almost 2 years now, but I receive emails from her wanting to know why the separation and she has a right to know etc.. She knew I was receiving therapy at the time, I told her I needed space, and still thinks she needs more information. So I have tried writing many letters which all come out rather harsh. What would be the most beneficial way of explaining "why" to someone with NPD?

Beth McHugh (13211) 17 Jan 2008 03:10 PM

Hi robison6, you really can't satisfactorily explain "why" to a narcissist because they will not accept your explanation because it won't suit them. I'm sure you know this already. So there is really no way of satisfying your mother on this issue. If you go into too much detail, she will likely want to justify herself on all counts. Perhaps it is best to just keep saying you need more space. When she disagrees with that (as she will), you can then use the "we must agree to disagree on this one." As you have severed the relationship, it's easier for you not to get re-embroiled in further arguments. If the problem is more deep-seated than this, you can always contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

TheWolfInsideHer (10) 18 Jan 2008 07:37 AM

Hello, Beth - interesting article. Unfortunately, this sort of behavior sounds all too familiar. I'm wondering if it's also common for an N mother to have a complete obsession with proper appearance, be constantly criticial of the tiniest flaw, expect a daughter to spend hours on her hair, face, clothes etc, tell her that 'not making the best of yourself' is the real reason she doesn't have friends or boyfriends - and yet, when the daughter does make up, choose clothes she likes wearing, or someone else compliments her on her appearance, the mother is angry and condemnatory? I'm guessing it's to do with competition, having another female in the house, but would be interested in your views as a professional. There has of course been lots of other stuff over the years. It seems Ns, if this one is typical, have completely inverted priorities - little superficial things are important to them, and grounds for rage or coldness if they're not perfect, whereas real important, deep stuff, like your feelings, the kind of person you really are or want to be, gets dismissed and ridden over roughshod. I've come to the conclusion - after several bouts of depression, the most recent a few years ago now - that perfectionism is a killer; the only person I have to be 'good enough' for is me. Nmother is in a NH now, and it's sometimes hard to explain to people why there is absolutely no way we could ever have her move in with us - it is difficult when people, and this includes many authors on the subject, think there 'should' be that sense of obligation to an elderly parent. Anyway, thanks for the article. It's helpful to know that there is an explanation for this kind of behavior.

Beth McHugh (13211) 18 Jan 2008 04:28 PM

Hi "Wolf," the narcissist does have a need to be "perfect" and this may be reflected in an obsession with appearance. That will also extend to you, her child, as you are perceived as an extension of her. However, you can't be too "perfect" as that would be seen as a threat, as you have correctly guessed. And yes, they do exhibit a sense of superficiality, whereby there is much effort expended on little things, while larger issues go unaddressed. It is the latter that causes many communication problems, particularly if you have needs unmet by the narcissistic parent. They are unable to really empathize with other's feelings, yet they become enraged if they think their own feelings are not being met. I think your sense of obligation to your mother extends to being humane - in this case, seeing that she has all she needs in the NH, and that she is well cared for, and whatever communication you feel is best for your mental health. As for caring for her in your home, if there is any threat to your health and your marriage and the happiness of your family, then you are better off caring from a distance as you are. Unless people have close dealings with a narcissist, (and a parent at that), they have little idea of the emotional damage they can cause. It's easy to say "should" but the reality is, it's not always the best thing. Hope this helps, Beth.

Achingforlove (10) 01 Feb 2008 03:03 PM

My NPD mother was sadistically cruel to me as a teenager, especially, doing things like hiding my textbooks the night before exams so I'd panic & frantically have to search the house so I could study, pretend that I was invisible & intentionally bump into me & then say to my siblings something like, "Hmm, that's funny...I could swear I just bumped into something but there's nothing there!", grab an armful of my clothes out of my closet on a rainy day & take them outside & stomp all over them till they got really muddy, stuff like that. My teenage years were nothing short of a daily living nightmare with her. It came out recently that my brothers had sexually abused me all throughought my childhood (I was actually hospitalized twice due to terrifyingly horrendous flashbacks) & although both of my brothers have apologized to me on the phone for the abuse, they have denied it to our mother. My therapists say they lied to her because they are just as terrified of her wrath as I am. She was never there for me then & today tells everyone what a liar I am for making up such horrible stories. I have written to her numerous times begging her to listen to me now & believe the truth, but I know that, with her being a narcissist, that's pretty unlikely that that will ever happen. She is planning a big family reunion out on the west coast this summer (I live in the midwest) & I just sent her a very long letter, including that I will not make an appearance, if she is unable to accept the truth & remains unwilling to spend any one-on-one time with me prior to that. For years & I have been asking her out to lunch, etc. just to try to start to develop a mature, loving relationship with her, & she turns me down every time. I know I will get a great deal of horrendous fall-out for this & I am prepared for that. Over the past several years I have "cut off ties" with her several times, but something always seems to pull me back into her life. I realize that she is incapable of ever loving me like a mother ought to love her daughter & I'm just so sick of playing along with her mental games that I really would like to be able to cut her off from my life for good. She plays mind games with my 12 year old son, too, & that's where I draw the line. I don't want him to have to bear the same negative influences from her that I've had to all my life. I did not attend the last big reunion last year for the same reason. She tells the world what a close, loving family she has, which of course is a bunch of baloney. I can stand her continuing abuse & would like nothing more to do with her for my own sanity & that of my son. Do you have any suggestions on how to deal with the ever-present hatred & torture of my mother?

Beth McHugh (13211) 01 Feb 2008 10:05 PM

Hi Achingforlove, your mother displays many of the characteristics of narcissism and having a mother who suffers from NPD is one of most demanding roles for a child of that parent to undertake. There are really only two solutions to dealing with such people. One is complete avoidance which many adult children are understandably unable to do. Even doing this required emotional work to be done as mere aviodance still leave you with unresolved sadness and anger. The other is to learn healthier ways of dealing with narcissists. The change must come from you, as it is not possible to change another person, particularly one suffering from NPD. If you would like further assistance you are welcome to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

tired (5) 03 Feb 2008 12:56 AM

This is my first time ever participating in a blog. I just discovered my mother has NPD. I want to thank every person who wrote in. Your willingness to put words to so much pain has given me hope. I am 39, have three healthy children, a loving husband. Yet I am so tired. For years, I thought it was me - that I wasn't smart enough, talented enough, dutiful enough. My husband is in the army and we don't have much money, yet I have spent so much time and money flying back home, only to be belittled, my parenting style ridiculed, my failures thrown at my face at a whim. I lived ten minutes from my parents while my husband was deployed to Iraq. Not one time did my mother come visit, cook us a meal, offer to babysit. Instead it was me doing for her, serving her meals, spending precious time listening to her rants. This is a woman who exercises for two hours a day. I fear she will outlive us all. I spent my youth being sexually abused by an older brother. When I told my mother this, during one of her abusive tirades about what a "good for nothing" I was, the only thing she had to say was that he was her son, and that nothing I could ever say would make her feel differently towards him. She then left my room and went to the kitchen, offering to cook him anything he wanted for breakfast, making sure I could hear her wait on him and serve him. I'll never forget that moment. I am a stay at home mom with aspirations to do something with my talents. Any time she gets wind of a project I am doing, she takes it on, too, whether it be painting or writing or decorating. I never realized why I have all of these unfinished projects strewn about my home. All it takes is one condescending glance from her, or discouraging remark, and I am a four year old again, and suddenly my work looks like junk. My father died last year. He lost a one year long battle with cancer. When he started chemotherapy, she called me, imitating him with a whining voice, saying, "Feel sorry for meeeee; I'm on chemoooooo." I will never get that voice out of my head. I want to forget the horrible childhood I had: the loneliness and pain of having a mother that fed herself first, always, and often at my expense, pitting me and my siblings against one another, suffering through the silent treatments that lasted for days, the tirades about my aunts and our neighbors and how stupid they and everything they stood for was. I realize now that I need concrete advice on how to limit my interactions with her. Every phone conversation we have leaves me feeling angry and assaulted. But as I sit here and contemplate cutting ties with her I realize, by the sweat of my brow and the quickening of my pulse, just what a hold she has on me. And yet I can't help but feel encouraged by this blogsite. Thank you thank you thank you. sincerely, Tired

Beth McHugh (13211) 03 Feb 2008 03:32 PM

Dear Tired, as you see you are not alone in having a mother with NPD. It is a terrible burden for any child to bear, especially as they have no way of knowing that there is something wrong with "Mom". Knowledge about the disorder comes later in life, unfortunately much damage has been done in the meantime. If you would like assistance in learning ways to better cope with your mother, you are welcome to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Notabrat (30) 06 Feb 2008 12:04 PM

As I read these, it's sad to realize there are so many of us who are limping through life - having had an NPD mother. Even now - I'm a little afraid that mine may stumble onto this site - recognize me and just hit the roof. How - at age 52- can I still quake at the thought of her anger? How is it - that her "nasty" voice still punishes me as deeply as it did when I was a child? Doesn't it feel good though - in another way - to read of each other's experiences and no we're not the only ones? As I read what others have written, I think "Ouch, ouch double ouch! You're best bet is to walk away and work as hard at enjoying your own life as you've worked on pleasing "She who will always be horrible". Of course - I realize then that I'm the one who needs to do that. It is comforting though, to know I'm not the only one who has a mother from hell. I think of her now as a truly horrible jellyfish - everyone close to her has deep pain where she's lashed out and stung them - but the jellyfish itself just continues to comfortably blob about in a tropical ocean- getting her needs met and oblivous to the pain she's causing.

Achingforlove (10) 07 Feb 2008 02:14 PM

Wow, that analogy to a jellyfish hits the definition of a narcissist right on the nose! I also just read on some other blog on NPD that a narcissist is like a tornado...Wherever they touch down they tear apart their families & leave people seriously wounded. How accurate that is! I think that's one of the things that bothers me most about my mother - that she intentionally causes me such horrible pain (& thoroughly enjoys it), yet she seems to have no clue whatsoever as to how much she hurts me. When I try to explain to people what it's like having her for a mom, people generally feel like I should just blow her off (as if that was easy!) and/or forgive her because she has a mental illness. How on earth can I just act as if her cruelties are "no big deal" or that they shouldn't bother me so much? I hate it when people say stuff like, "She can't help it. She's sick, remember?" Oh, but she CAN help it! She is so deliberate & calculating with her hatred toward me. Does anyone out there have a suggestion of something you've tried with your mom that seems to work? I've done a lot of research on NPD & so I have a really good knowledge about what the disorder is all about. The one thing I haven't been able to come up with, however, is how to deal with/confront a NPD parent about their deplorable behavior without it smashing right back in my own face. I know a lot of people just cut themselves off entirely from that parent, which is what I've been trying to do for years, but even if I don't have direct contact with her, I still have the rest of my family to deal with (who basically demand that I be nice to her because, when I'm not, then they have to suffer for it.) I do not want to be cut off from my entire family just because there's basically one rotten apple in the bunch. The problem is that my siblings sometimes see ME as the rotten apple because I'm the one rocking the boat (that's what they call it when I ask to be treated with respect)! No matter what I do, or don't do, I always feel like I've made the wrong decision, which always leads to more pain. Have any of you ever successfully tried to inform other family members of your mom's mental illness? The web of deceit & cover ups runs so deeply in my family that even though all of my siblings know our family is not normal, they do not want to blame our mom for the problems she causes. I have always been the family scapegoat, & so as long as I allow myself to be my mom's primary target of abuse, they are okay with that. I hate being in this position, because I feel like they don't care about my feelings anymore than my mom does. If you've felt the same way & you have found something that works for you, please share your idea . Thanks!

Beth McHugh (13211) 07 Feb 2008 02:44 PM

Hi Achingforlove, One of the problems that adult children of narcissists encounter is that they have a poor set of boundaries, as the narcissistic parent is unable to teach this fundamental life skill to their children as they have no boundaries themselves. Learning to set healthy boundaries against your mother, siblings and even other people will allow you to feel more in control of the situation. There is also much grief and anger to deal with as you slowly go thorough the therapeutic process of detaching yourself emotionally from a narcissistic parent. Unfortunately there is no single key to stepping out of this situation. Although the illness is the same, each mother is different and each child reacts differently to that mother. You can see that for yourself in the way your own family has unofficial made you the family scapegoat. Again, this is not uncommon in dysfunctional families, and is something that you will need to address for your own sake in order to achieve peace. Sorry there is no magic bullet, and therapy takes time. Even never seeing the offending parent again does not equal emotional peace, because the emotional ties and damage remain even if the physical presence is gone. I do encourage my clients to act of this type of situation prior to the death of the parent too, as even death does not guarantee escape. It sounds difficult! It is, yet there are ways to work through the pain of being the adult child of a narcissist that do have happy endings. Best wishes, Beth

ConfusedFlower (5) 11 Feb 2008 02:42 PM

This isn't about my mom...it's about my father. He has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Substance Abuse Disorder. I am 26 years old and have no sense of self-worth...my self-esteem is so low...because like it or not we need positive feedback from our parents and I never got none of that. I doubt my abilities daily and if anyone ever compliments me I never know how to receive a compliment because I was never used to them as a child/teenager. The only thing that kept me going were my three younger brothers. We were victims to this idiot we call a father. He has affected us so badly...I don't know if we will be able to recover ever. He can be such a monster and evil. Uncapable of relating to others or respecting other people. He has always had this aura of grandiosity but was never that in any way shape or form. I was very confused by this when I was younger. I can now tell that he is just not right in the head. He has suffered from alcoholism since he was a teenager. He is now 58. Even though he is 58 I know he doesn't see himself as such...I have asked him how old he feels and he says like 25...but he acts more like 13. He has always been very immature trapped in the body of an adult. I actually do feel for him now. But back then when I needed him the most I hated him and wished him to just die. He left mom time and time again...we were so happy when he left and we would not see him for months....all he cared was about himself. One day I heard a knock on the door and he had been gone for months: It was him. I felt kinda happy but then he looked around never looking at me and sighed and said, "oh, it's like I never left". That hurt me deeply...but it was always ALL about him. My relationship with mom was not the greatest either so growing up all we had was each other (my brothers and I and they are truly my only family). He was marrried previously and divorced in less than a year. A son came out of that relationship. A son he would never care to see. CAN YOU IMAGINE? I was about 13 when he told me and I asked why he had never bothered to look for him...he had no answer and I felt so sad for my other brother out there. I recently found him...and was also kinda sad to inform him of the failure that was our father. We have been able to connect at least and now he knows we are here. All I want to say is that even though these people are deemed mentally ill, IT IS STILL NOT FAIR TO US. When my father would tell me he was good at this and that...that he was always the most handsome or tallest, or smartest out of all these other people....just to piss him off I would tell him no..he is smarter or he also is good looking...I would tell him to stop being an idiot and devaluating other people or he would never have real friends. He was so mean to me when I was I child...calling me names, ripping me up in front of his friends or rest of the family....I was depressed...I was crying alone one time when I was about 6 or 7...and he said what are you crying for...I said I don't know...and he said well, I will give you a reason to cry and spanked me so hard...and yelled at me. I had enough. As I grew older I stood up to him. He never received a word of positive feedback from me. I told him as it was and I never tried to please him....I told him he was an idiot and the best thing that could happen to me was that my mom would tell me he wasn't actually my dad. Nowadays, he has become a worse alcoholic, he has lost everything...his family. My brothers talk to him only out of pity and when they really have to....and I never do.... At the same time, I do feel sadness for him because he wasted his whole life and just had illusions....he lost everyone...I told him he has problems and he needs to fix his mental self but he says he doesn't believe me. I think deep down he does....they have to understand...how can they not to a point? I mean, they know they %&#ED up otherwise their lives would have been happier and more productive...he knows he didn't do &*# with his life...but hides it behind this "proud" exterior....although lately this exterior is really faltering...and I think one day he will end it by his hand. I feel sad to say this but at 58 he will not change...and I think the only salvation for him now is to leave this world and face God. I am sure of God will know where to separate sins due to mental illness and sins just for the fun of it. But I really think only then will he be released from this sad story that has been his life.

Beth McHugh (13211) 11 Feb 2008 03:15 PM

Hi ConfusedFlower, it certainly is not fair to be the child of a narcissistic parent. As a narcissist ages, the condition worsens as it becomes harder and harder to maintain the aura of perfection. Narcissists also lave their children with an often profound sense of low self worth, yet this is all a result of their own lack of self esteem. Unfortunately as children, we can't know that our parent is mentally ill, and the illusion of superiority and perfection also throws others off the scent. You have done well to separate physically from your father, plus your realization that he will not change. I hope you are able to heal the scars he inflicted during your childhood.

JansDaughter (20) 11 Feb 2008 06:57 PM

I am 45 years old and in so much pain, I don’t know what to do anymore. I grew up my entire life with a mentally abusive mother. I’m just now beginning to discover that she has NPD. I have literally spent the past 45 years trying to satisfy a woman who can’t be satisfied. She is an evil, nasty selfish woman but, I can’t help but love her and constantly keep trying to make things right with her. What is wrong with me?

She disowned my younger sister 11 years ago and considers her dead, because my sister wrote a note to her as a teenager trying to explain how my mother made her feel. She has disowned her mother (my Grandmother in the past…. for 5 years but, my Grandmother kept sending her cards etc. and one day my mother â€Å"forgave” her.) My (89 year old) grandmother has walked on egg shells with her since because she didn’t want to be â€Å"disowned” again.

Her sister died of cancer and she never went to see her because she didn’t want to fly. In fact when my Aunt (her sister) was in her last month of life, she called my mother and my mother said â€Å"We are eating dinner right now, I’ll call you later.” She didn’t call her back. She didn’t attend her own father’s funeral because she â€Å"couldn’t” fly.

She admitted that she was jealous of me as a child. She didn’t like me. When I got married she came to the wedding. After the wedding we all went to see the house my husband and I were building. When we got to the house we all went inside. I realized my mother wasn’t there, I asked my step father what was wrong and he said â€Å"she’s upset and crying” Well, because I knew my mother so well I knew EXACTLEY what she was upset about (even though she said it was because my brother passed away which was 6 years before!) I knew that she was upset because I was happy and my husband and I were building a beautiful house. That was in October 1998 I didn’t hear from my mother again until I called her that Christmas morning to say Merry Christmas. The first words out of her mouth were â€Å"I could ruin your life right now” and she continued to throw everything she knew about me since I was a kid at me. I was shocked and devastated. But, I knew I was right about the reason she was upset on my wedding day.

Recently my Grandmother (her mother) went to live in NH from Florida. My aunt in NH sent my mother and myself all my (89 year old) grandmothers contact information. I called my grandmother, asked if she had heard from my mother yet and she said â€Å"no” My grandmother left my mother several message the first month she was back (my mother hadn’t seen her for 5 years!) but my mother never returned her calls. I left my mother several messages trying to make arrangements for us all to get together. My mother never contacted either of us.

I ended up going to NH get my grandmother and have her stay with me for the weekend because she was very unhappy in the assisted living facility she was living in. On the way up to get my grandmother in NH I tried calling my mother to see if she wanted us to stop by on our way back but she didn’t pick up the phone even after I said â€Å"mom, please pick up the phone” On the way back with my grandmother I tried calling her again, again she didn’t pick up the phone.

I got my grandmother (who I hadn’t seen for 2 years) to my house and by the time we sat down to eat dinner my grandmother started having severe stomach pain. I called 911 and she was rushed to the hospital. In the emergency room I tried to call my mother. I am now begging into her phone to please pick up, she didn’t. I called my step fathers cell phone, it was off. I called my mothers house again and my step father answered. I said â€Å"where’s mom”? he said â€Å"in the bathroom” (this is the typical answer I get when she didn’t want to talk.) I said â€Å"get her on the phone its important” she then took the phone from him and said â€Å"hello”? Like there was not a care in the world. Of course by now after my grandmother and I trying to reach her for a month I was mad. I said â€Å"I am so pissed right now!” she said â€Å"what’s wrong?” I said â€Å"Grammy and I have been trying to reach you for over a month, why haven’t you answered our calls?” she said â€Å"don’t you talk to me that way, you have no idea what is going on with me” (last time that something was wrong, I was going through a bad depression after my divorce and she couldn’t really talk because her dog wasn’t feeling well!) Anyways I said â€Å"Grammy’s in the hospital in case you care!” and I hung up on her, I was shaking I was so angry. I was waiting for her to call back to see what happened or to call my aunt to see what happened. Guess what? She never called ANYONE to see what happened. For all she knew or cared my grandmother passed away that night. My grandmother ended up being admitted into the hospital for a week. Not once did my mother call anyone to see what happened.

That was last November. Of course since then I have been feeling guilty because I yelled at her when I was in the emergency room. This past January I wrote her a short email wishing her a Happy New Year. She wrote back as if she didn’t know who I was. I thought she was joking with me so I wrote again. Laughing, telling her about the holidays etc. I didn’t hear back from her again.

Recently my grandmother has been extremely depressed. I thought if she heard from my mother, she’d feel better. I called my mother (who NEVER answers her phone) she picked up the phone and said â€Å"hello?” (as if she didn’t know it was me from the caller ID) I said â€Å"Hello, mom?” And she slammed the phone down on me. I called her back desperately 4 times begging on her answering machine for her to talk to me, it was important, it’s about Grammy” she never picked up. I then wrote her an email asking her what I did to make her hate me so much. I said if I don’t hear back from you I promise I will never try to contact you again” That was 2 weeks ago and I never heard back.

The problem is after all the years of constantly trying to be accepted by my mother, I STILL want to try to make things better! I still crave the loving mother I never had. I want her to know the immense pain she has caused me my entire life. The thought of the countless time I made things better with her, I forgave, I ignored the painful things she did just to keep her happy. Now I end up disowned…. How can I let her know the pain she has caused? I should have let it happen a long, long time ago, I would have been so much healthier and happier. How do I get rid of this heavy aching heart?

~Jan’s Daughter

JansDaughter (20) 11 Feb 2008 07:02 PM

I am 45 years old and in so much pain, I don’t know what to do anymore. I grew up my entire life with a mentally abusive mother. I’m just now beginning to discover that she has NPD. I have literally spent the past 45 years trying to satisfy a woman who can’t be satisfied. She is an evil, nasty selfish woman but, I can’t help but love her and constantly keep trying to make things right with her. What is wrong with me?

She disowned my younger sister 11 years ago and considers her dead, because my sister wrote a note to her as a teenager trying to explain how my mother made her feel. She has disowned her mother (my Grandmother in the past…. for 5 years but, my Grandmother kept sending her cards etc. and one day my mother â€Å"forgave” her.) My (89 year old) grandmother has walked on egg shells with her since because she didn’t want to be â€Å"disowned” again.

Her sister died of cancer and she never went to see her because she didn’t want to fly. In fact when my Aunt (her sister) was in her last month of life, she called my mother and my mother said â€Å"We are eating dinner right now, I’ll call you later.” She didn’t call her back. She didn’t attend her own father’s funeral because she â€Å"couldn’t” fly.

She admitted that she was jealous of me as a child. She didn’t like me. When I got married she came to the wedding. After the wedding we all went to see the house my husband and I were building. When we got to the house we all went inside. I realized my mother wasn’t there, I asked my step father what was wrong and he said â€Å"she’s upset and crying” Well, because I knew my mother so well I knew EXACTLEY what she was upset about (even though she said it was because my brother passed away which was 6 years before!) I knew that she was upset because I was happy and my husband and I were building a beautiful house. That was in October 1998 I didn’t hear from my mother again until I called her that Christmas morning to say Merry Christmas. The first words out of her mouth were â€Å"I could ruin your life right now” and she continued to throw everything she knew about me since I was a kid at me. I was shocked and devastated. But, I knew I was right about the reason she was upset on my wedding day.

Recently my Grandmother (her mother) went to live in NH from Florida. My aunt in NH sent my mother and myself all my (89 year old) grandmothers contact information. I called my grandmother, asked if she had heard from my mother yet and she said â€Å"no” My grandmother left my mother several message the first month she was back (my mother hadn’t seen her for 5 years!) but my mother never returned her calls. I left my mother several messages trying to make arrangements for us all to get together. My mother never contacted either of us.

I ended up going to NH get my grandmother and have her stay with me for the weekend because she was very unhappy in the assisted living facility she was living in. On the way up to get my grandmother in NH I tried calling my mother to see if she wanted us to stop by on our way back but she didn’t pick up the phone even after I said â€Å"mom, please pick up the phone” On the way back with my grandmother I tried calling her again, again she didn’t pick up the phone.

I got my grandmother (who I hadn’t seen for 2 years) to my house and by the time we sat down to eat dinner my grandmother started having severe stomach pain. I called 911 and she was rushed to the hospital. In the emergency room I tried to call my mother. I am now begging into her phone to please pick up, she didn’t. I called my step fathers cell phone, it was off. I called my mothers house again and my step father answered. I said â€Å"where’s mom”? he said â€Å"in the bathroom” (this is the typical answer I get when she didn’t want to talk.) I said â€Å"get her on the phone its important” she then took the phone from him and said â€Å"hello”? Like there was not a care in the world. Of course by now after my grandmother and I trying to reach her for a month I was mad. I said â€Å"I am so pissed right now!” she said â€Å"what’s wrong?” I said â€Å"Grammy and I have been trying to reach you for over a month, why haven’t you answered our calls?” she said â€Å"don’t you talk to me that way, you have no idea what is going on with me” (last time that something was wrong, I was going through a bad depression after my divorce and she couldn’t really talk because her dog wasn’t feeling well!) Anyways I said â€Å"Grammy’s in the hospital in case you care!” and I hung up on her, I was shaking I was so angry. I was waiting for her to call back to see what happened or to call my aunt to see what happened. Guess what? She never called ANYONE to see what happened. For all she knew or cared my grandmother passed away that night. My grandmother ended up being admitted into the hospital for a week. Not once did my mother call anyone to see what happened.

That was last November. Of course since then I have been feeling guilty because I yelled at her when I was in the emergency room. This past January I wrote her a short email wishing her a Happy New Year. She wrote back as if she didn’t know who I was. I thought she was joking with me so I wrote again. Laughing, telling her about the holidays etc. I didn’t hear back from her again.

Recently my grandmother has been extremely depressed. I thought if she heard from my mother, she’d feel better. I called my mother (who NEVER answers her phone) she picked up the phone and said â€Å"hello?” (as if she didn’t know it was me from the caller ID) I said â€Å"Hello, mom?” And she slammed the phone down on me. I called her back desperately 4 times begging on her answering machine for her to talk to me, it was important, it’s about Grammy” she never picked up. I then wrote her an email asking her what I did to make her hate me so much. I said if I don’t hear back from you I promise I will never try to contact you again” That was 2 weeks ago and I never heard back.

The problem is after all the years of constantly trying to be accepted by my mother, I STILL want to try to make things better! I still crave the loving mother I never had. I want her to know the immense pain she has caused me my entire life. The thought of the countless time I made things better with her, I forgave, I ignored the painful things she did just to keep her happy. Now I end up disowned…. How can I let her know the pain she has caused? I should have let it happen a long, long time ago, I would have been so much healthier and happier. How do I get rid of this heavy aching heart?

~Jan’s Daughter

JansDaughter (20) 11 Feb 2008 07:16 PM

I am 45 years old and in so much pain, I don't know what to do anymore. I grew up my entire life with a mentally abusive mother. I'm just now beginning to discover that she has NPD. I have literally spent the past 45 years trying to satisfy a woman who cant be satisfied. She is an evil, nasty selfish woman but, I cant help but love her and constantly keep trying to make things right with her. What is wrong with me?

She disowned my younger sister 11 years ago and considers her dead, because my sister wrote a note to her as a teenager trying to explain how my mother made her feel. She has disowned her mother (my Grandmother in the past…. for 5 years but, my Grandmother kept sending her cards etc. and one day my mother â€Å"forgave” her.) My (89 year old) grandmother has walked on egg shells with her since because she didn't want to be â€Å"disowned” again.

Her sister died of cancer and she never went to see her because she didn't want to fly. In fact when my Aunt (her sister) was in her last month of life, she called my mother and my mother said â€Å"We are eating dinner right now, Ill call you later.” She didn't call her back. She didn't attend her own fathers funeral because she â€Å"couldn't” fly.

She admitted that she was jealous of me as a child. She didn't like me. When I got married she came to the wedding. After the wedding we all went to see the house my husband and I were building. When we got to the house we all went inside. I realized my mother wasn't there, I asked my step father what was wrong and he said â€Å"shes upset and crying” Well, because I knew my mother so well I knew EXACTLY what she was upset about (even though she said it was because my brother passed away which was 6 years before!) I knew that she was upset because I was happy and my husband and I were building a beautiful house. That was in October 1998 I didn't hear from my mother again until I called her that Christmas morning to say Merry Christmas. The first words out of her mouth were â€Å"I could ruin your life right now” and she continued to throw everything she knew about me since I was a kid at me. I was shocked and devastated. But, I knew I was right about the reason she was upset on my wedding day.

Recently my Grandmother (her mother) went to live in NH from Florida. My aunt in NH sent my mother and myself all my (89 year old) grandmothers contact information. I called my grandmother, asked if she had heard from my mother yet and she said â€Å"no” My grandmother left my mother several message the first month she was back (my mother hadn't seen her for 5 years!) but my mother never returned her calls. I left my mother several messages trying to make arrangements for us all to get together. My mother never contacted either of us.

I ended up going to NH get my grandmother and have her stay with me for the weekend because she was very unhappy in the assisted living facility she was living in. On the way up to get my grandmother in NH I tried calling my mother to see if she wanted us to stop by on our way back but she didn't pick up the phone even after I said â€Å"mom, please pick up the phone” On the way back with my grandmother I tried calling her again, again she didn't pick up the phone.

I got my grandmother (who I hadn't seen for 2 years) to my house and by the time we sat down to eat dinner my grandmother started having severe stomach pain. I called 911 and she was rushed to the hospital. In the emergency room I tried to call my mother. I am now begging into her phone to please pick up, she didn't. I called my step fathers cell phone, it was off. I called my mothers house again and my step father answered. I said â€Å"wheres mom”? he said â€Å"in the bathroom” (this is the typical answer I get when she didn't want to talk.) I said â€Å"get her on the phone its important” she then took the phone from him and said â€Å"hello”? Like there was not a care in the world. Of course by now after my grandmother and I trying to reach her for a month I was mad. I said â€Å"I am so pissed right now!” she said â€Å"whats wrong?” I said â€Å"Grammy and I have been trying to reach you for over a month, why haven't you answered our calls?” she said â€Å"don't you talk to me that way, you have no idea what is going on with me” (last time that something was wrong, I was going through a bad depression after my divorce and she couldn't really talk because her dog wasn't feeling well!) Anyways I said â€Å"Grammy is in the hospital in case you care!” and I hung up on her, I was shaking I was so angry. I was waiting for her to call back to see what happened or to call my aunt to see what happened. Guess what? She never called ANYONE to see what happened. For all she knew or cared my grandmother passed away that night. My grandmother ended up being admitted into the hospital for a week. Not once did my mother call anyone to see what happened.

That was last November. Of course since then I have been feeling guilty because I yelled at her when I was in the emergency room. This past January I wrote her a short email wishing her a Happy New Year. She wrote back as if she didn't know who I was. I thought she was joking with me so I wrote again. Laughing, telling her about the holidays etc. I didn't hear back from her again.

Recently my grandmother has been extremely depressed. I thought if she heard from my mother, shed feel better. I called my mother (who NEVER answers her phone) she picked up the phone and said â€Å"hello?” (as if she didn't know it was me from the caller ID) I said â€Å"Hello, mom?” And she slammed the phone down on me. I called her back desperately 4 times begging on her answering machine for her to talk to me, it was important, its about Grammy” she never picked up. I then wrote her an email asking her what I did to make her hate me so much. I said if I don't hear back from you I promise I will never try to contact you again” That was 2 weeks ago and I never heard back.

The problem is after all the years of constantly trying to be accepted by my mother, I STILL want to try to make things better! I still crave the loving mother I never had. I want her to know the immense pain she has caused me my entire life. The thought of the countless time I made things better with her, I forgave, I ignored the painful things she did just to keep her happy. Now I end up disowned…. How can I let her know the pain she has caused? I should have let it happen a long, long time ago, I would have been so much healthier and happier. How do I get rid of this heavy aching heart?

~Jan's Daughter

JansDaughter (20) 11 Feb 2008 07:17 PM

I'm sorry... I don't know what is wrong with my text.... can someone delete my duplicated post?

Beth McHugh (13211) 11 Feb 2008 10:17 PM

Dear Jan's Daughter, I understand completely why you want your mother to love you, because we all want and need our mothers to do so. If your mother truly has NPD, there is much acceptance and grieving to go through on your part. If you feel that I can be of assistance to you in emotionally breaking free from the pain your mother has caused, you are most welcome to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Notabrat (30) 13 Feb 2008 08:05 AM

I know I've posed this before - but why is it that Jan's Daughter has so much grieving and accepting to do - but her mother gets to just continue on - hurting anyone and everyone not smart enough to see through her. As children of an NPD mother - we have been short-changed all our lives and I'm not convinced that we don't need to ( and have the right to) confront our mother with the damage to OUR lives by HER actions. My mother is very, very lucky that I live 3,000 miles away from her and I wish that my brother had shot her, instead of himself.

Notabrat (30) 13 Feb 2008 08:07 AM

Sorry, that last post of mine was too off the cuff. I will go into a quiet corner and do the writing work I need to do.

Siofra (5) 24 Feb 2008 10:39 AM

Hello, I've never blogged before so apologies if I'm going the wrong way about it but I've been reading with intense interest and a rare feeling of connection. My mother was diagnosed as a narcissist by my therapist; she was also our only parent which intensified the experience. Although I have moved country and succeeded in many areas of my life I'm pretty much unable to form relationships. The thing that resonates and strikes me most is the co-incidence of sexual abuse with a narcissistic mother. My mother exposed me to paedophiles through my life, at one point in my puberty encouraging me to remove my top and parade around in front of all, but most especially my predatory grandfather. I still think of that episode with shame. My point is that even in a group for sexually abused that I once attended the narcissistic tendancies of the particiants' mothers seemed marked. My brother has also tried it on with me. Is there any evidence or are there studies linking maternal narcissism and the sexual abuse of one or more of her children? Do these mothers like to abuse by proxy when their direct involvement might seem too obvious to the audience? And thank you for this space to speak out.

Beth McHugh (13211) 24 Feb 2008 02:29 PM

Hi Siofra, as with most disorders there are degrees of dysfunction, and narcissism is no different. It can range in milder forms as malign indifference to the offspring through to cruelty and sexual abuse as you have described. It seems possible that your own mother could have been a victim of her father, which has then precipitated the development of her personality disorder. Narcissistic mothers may abuse verbally, emotionally and physically, and as you say, sexually by proxy. They would derive pleasure from humiliation and an intense feeling of power and control, which they crave. Narcissists almost never seek treatment, and even if forced to by other family members, the therapy will stall as no responsibility will be taken for their actions. Hence most of what we know about narcissistic individuals comes from observation, rather than one-on-one study. Narcissists also do not understand the concept of personal boundaries, hence there is little empathy for your feelings and therefore your brother's behavior would not be checked by her. Narcissism can also be generational, where there is one is a family tree, there may well be others. If you feel you would like assistance in dealing with the pain associated with your mother's narcissism please don't hesitate to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Unafraid (20) 26 Feb 2008 06:44 PM

I am so thankful, after searching endlessly for answers on Destructive NPD that I have found your site. Somehow, it is truly comforting to see that there are so many others who have endured a mother who has this condition. I happened to finally understand what I have been dealing with for years, but had no name for, after my sister was commited to a mental health facility after overdosing and then calling for help. Her husband of almost thirty years has been having an affair for at least two to three years. He even went so far as to take his girlfriend to a mutual friend's wedding as his date. He called to explain to me that all of this was my sister's fault. He said that she did not know how to manage the house or finances and basically, "What do you expect?" I had the pleasure of telling him exactly what I though of him and the excusing of his hideous behavior. I know that he thought that he would have a sympathetic person in me, because my sister had tried to ruin me with me family months before. At that time, my NPD mother had started a campaign against me saying that I was a bad mother and allowed one of my four children to mistreat another of them. I made the mistake (though I do not consider it one) of telling her that she was wrong and that she had always accused my younger sister (there are three girls in our family) and I of mistreating our older sister (the one whose husband had the affair) and that she was not right about that as she was not right about her opinion of the situation with my children. I think it is interesting that in my family this oldest daughter was the safe target for abuse, because she reminded my mother of my father's mother (whom she despised and thought was common -something a narcissist cannot abide). I chose to forgive my sister, realizing she was controlled by my mother. I also chose to support her against her husband and defend her to our mother when our mother also blamed her for the affair, was disgraced by her overdose and stay in the "mental hospital", and came home a month later and removed this sister from my father's and her will. My mother is from a fairly wealthy family and has an obsession with money. This is the second time they have cut this particular sister out of their will. When I would not talk with my mother about this sister, it would enrage her. Also, I forgot to add that when I told my mother that she was wrong in her percecption of me and my children, I suggested that we should have the type of relationship that we can say what we feel and discuss it like adults and come to some type of understanding. This left her curled up in a fetal position on her bed, crying uncontrollably and motioning for me to please "leave, go away". Also, at the time I had breast cancer, was bald and she had come under the guise of "helping me take care of the children". I could go on with story after story of her horrors, but my main question is "Is it common for children of NPD parents to marry another NPD person" The reason I was fortunate enough to find out about this disorder is because the psychologist my sister dealt with told her that it sounded like our mother suffered from NPD or Borderline P.D. and that each of her three daughters had married one. I believe this and have just left my Destructive NPD after twenty one years of marriage and constant abuse to me and my children. The difference with me and my father is that I never acted to my children like my husband was right in the way he acted and I always tried to help them and found a way to finally leave, even though he is very intimidating and has a gun by the bed, one in his car and one in his gym bag. I did a tremendous amount of research on just how to leave these people safely and so far it is going according to the plan. Even though my Mother knows about all of the abuse, she thinks I should have stayed and because of her manipulation, neither of my sisters is speaking to me, nor are she or my father. It is hard to feel isolated, but in many ways it is a clean feeling. I was wondering if these mothers give the silent treatment as one of their strongest weapons, because of their fear of aloneness and to them this would be the ultimate mistreatment. I have to add that my Mother was severely emotionally abused by her mother, who often would not speak to her for weeks on end. Also my mother was an only child, so I cannot imagine how horrible her life with this person was. But, I still hold her responsible for what she has put us all through and I hold my father responsible for not fighting harder against her. Thanks for the chance to share my story.

Beth McHugh (13211) 27 Feb 2008 09:54 PM

Hi Unafraid, To answer your main question about children of NPD parents marrying narcissists: yes, this is possible since the new relationship feels familiar to the birth family relationship and is therefore attractive in its familiarity. This is similar to the pattern with alcoholism. Your mother's NPD was almost certainly caused by her own background, unfortunately narcissists are one of the most unlikely groups to ever seek counseling, so the destruction continues on to future generations. You have done so well to stand up to your mother and your husband, and you clearly recognize many aspects of the disorder. Yes, you will be lonely, yet the reality is that one can never have a close relationship with a narcissist. Part of you will have known that all your life, even though you would have likely tried to resist acknowledging it. If you feel you would benefit from counseling about your mother and birth family, don't hesitate to contact me at http://youronlinecounsleor.com

Unafraid (20) 28 Feb 2008 03:16 PM

I was looking back over a few of the comments, I re-read the blog from Achingforlove who wanted to know how to live within a family who still supports the destructive NPD parent and makes you feel that there is something wrong with you and that you are the problem. I have gone through this ever since I started standing up to my Mother. My sisters would tell me that she was old and how could I talk to her that way. The way I "talked to her" was to state the truth, for one that she was not a perfect mother and had made many mistakes and that she had no right to judge my parenting. I too was the rebellious child in my family, I always knew that the vicious way our Mother treated us and her rage and hatred were not normal. At first, everyone was upset with me and did not see. But, a new development has happened since I first wrote, my older sister is now looking for information on NPD and admitting that our mother is one. This is a big break through. She called me for the first time in days and discussed this with me yesterday. My other sister still has not spoken to me for months. I have given up on my father ever feeling safe enough to let his shield of denial slip. I understand, he has been verbally and emotionally abused for years. I remember, as a child, sitting at the top of the stairs, in the dark, watching my mother rail at him about one thing or another. All the while, he would sit with his head slumped down and make half hearted attempts to defend himself. This has continued to the point that he has become the perfect mirror and mouthpiece for any insane and abusive opinion or action my mother wants him to support. It is truly sickening to watch someone who was given the proper parenting and could have been such an amazing father be turned into a pawn. My advice is do not give up on the truth. Pray for changes and for health. Continue to read everything you can get your hands on. Also, I send my sisters emails that contain information and tell them they do not have to respond or agree, but I have an obligation to try to help them, after all they have been used beyond words. You have to accept that the NPD will never change or see their abuse. They never developed a core personality (this is my understanding) and therefore lack the ability to empathize or see anyone else as equal or as valuable as they are. Stop wasting time on them and work on the people who have souls left and the ability to interact with you on a human level. They are in denial and coming out of that will produce strong feelings, as I am sure you can attest to. In my case, I was filled with rage over my mother and then my husband. I finally came to the point of stopping caring about them in any way and focusing on my children, sisters, father and the other nieces and nephews. You know they turn on the second generation, just as they did their own children (this has already happened several times in our family). "Children of the Self Absorbed" is a great book and gives strategies to protect yourself and how to deal with family. In my job, I work with children and read the book today the "Three Little Pigs" to a little girl. As I was reading it, I had the realization that I am the pig who is building the house out of bricks and my sisters are choosing to take the "easy way" by building their houses (boundaries) out of straw and sticks. I will be prepared when the wolf knocks at the door and I will also have a pot boiling. Keep your cards close to you, plan your words wisely and tell the truth. I now tell my sisters every word my mother says to me about them (I started this before she stopped talking to me). They always seemed shocked that she would talk as badly about them as she does me, but I am not surprised at all. God bless you, don't ever give up or let fear stop your health and progress.

Unafraid (20) 06 Mar 2008 09:29 AM

Hi Beth, I had a question I wanted to ask. Many good things are happening in my family as far as each of us coming to understand that our Mother is a Narcissist. Now, my younger sister, who some how has been reading M. Scott Peck's book "People of the Lie", is also saying she realizes Mother is a Narcissist. We all read this book about twenty five years ago when a psychologist friend of my parents recommended it to them regarding my grandmother (my mother's mother). It explains much about NPD and the dynamic of the "evil couple" and how they operate as one. This is the case in my family now that my father has totally given up. He has had two knee surgeries and a broken back over the past few years and was totally dependent on our mother and I feel that is when he gave up on ever having a different opinion than hers or of being any kind of "voice of reason". Somehow my mother has also been reading this book again. It may be that she wants to convince everyone that I am evil. That sounds a lot like her. I can't verify why she and my sister are reading the book again, because this is the sister who is not speaking to me. I heard last night from my older sister that my younger sister had said something to my mother about my Mother's best friend possibly being a Narcissist and my Mother's response was, "Do you think I could be a Narcissist?" I just wanted to ask you if you think that a Narcissist can recognize themself for what they are? A few weeks after I left my husband, he did something to sabotage our oldest daughter, right before she went out on New Year's Eve. He told her that her shoes looked stupid and made comments about her clothes and appearance. Basically, he made her feel ugly right before she had to go to a party where her ex-boyfriend (a replica of her father) would be. After his comments, she drove thirty miles to a friend's house to borrow a pair of shoes (they were ridiculously high heeled and nothing like my daughter's normal style). Anyway, she ended up having a terrible night and wound up lost and rejected by this ex-boyfriend's behavior. She finally made her way to my new home safely. The next morning, I took the shoes she had worn the previous night and laid them on the kitchen table of my old home (where he is) with a note that said "these are the shoes your daughter wore last night" and told him that I knew what he was and that his purpose in life was to destroy and that being the case "why don't you just destroy yourself and leave the rest of us alone?". I then left my four inch thick folder of information on NPD with the note and shoes. The next day he was off of work and spent time reading the information. He told my daughter that he recognized a lot of himself in the information, but made the disclaimer that "he did not spend all of our money". I think that was one characteristic listed as a possible trait of a narcissist, excessive spending. I am just interested in whether these people can recognize themselves or if their denial mechanism is too strong to allow for this? My husband has always said that he felt there was something "not exactly right about him" but he didn't know what it was.

thanks

Beth McHugh (13211) 06 Mar 2008 02:57 PM

Hi Unafraid, Dr. Peck's book was first published in 1983 and outlined particular cases involving people which he delineates as "evil." By contrast, the US Psychiatric Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (aka DSM-IV-TR) gives a more defined outline of what exactly constitutes NPD. You can find the outlined characteristics here:

http://mental-health.families.com/blog/narcissismsymptoms-and-treatment-1

Excessive spending is not a recognized characteristic, although spending on certain items may occur in which to maintain a particular image, but it is not required for diagnosis. Narcissists are noted for their inability for self-assessment, therefore it is unlikely that a true narcissist would genuinely be concerned that they were a narcissist. Unless, of course, they were trying to draw attention to themselves by posing this question, but it would not be genuine nor would it be acted upon if the consensus was an overwhelming "yes." I cannot comment on either your parents or your husband's actions with your daughter's shoes. I do not have enough information. NPD, like any mental illness, is characterized by a constellation of symptoms which must be present before a diagnosis can be made. The latter behavior is only one event that could be explained by many reasons, not necessarily NPD or even a mental illness. Hope this helps.

SmallChanges (11) 28 Apr 2008 05:35 AM

I am new to this blog and am so relieved to have stumbled across this site. Upon reading these cases of narcissistic mothers I could not help but feel the angst behind these letters, and have had my very own feelings stirred up. And not in a pleasant fashion! You see in my opinion my own mother is the Mother of Narcissism! (Although she is an undiagnosed one at that.) In a nutshell she is responsible for my 35 years of mental anguish, fear, self doubt, low self esteem, bouts with depression, tears, stress, anxiety, justification and not forgetting to mention an over eating disorder. And this is on a good day! Today I am a proud mother of two adorable offspring and am married to a wonderful man. And it was not until I became a mother myself had I become self-aware of the increasingly odd behaviour displayed by my mother. Relentless justification became routine with every bit of communication endured with this woman. She would stoop so low as to undermine and compare me with others' daughters and would lecture me on how I should be more like them. My entire life, to this point, was spent being on the receiving end of continued personal insults, this occurred on a daily basis and sometimes up to three times a day even. Her psychological and emotional abuse had rendered me almost without spirit. Her demanding ways and 'shifting goal posts' had left me exhausted and perplexed with no sense of direction. Not once had I heard a word of praise for me uttered from her cold, clenched lips! This woman operates insidiously! In a pathetic way I desperately continued searching and longing for her love and approval. Hell, why not? Afterall she is my mother - the very person whom is meant to love me unconditionally - right? I questioned myself all too often as to why I didn't deserve her love. And I would ask myself, where am I failing her as a daughter? My coping mechanism until recently had been 'memory supression.' This was a skill I guess I acquired during my years of living with such a person. During my time of living at home with my narcissistic mother and emotionally cut off father, I had recognized their strange behaviour and treatment of my sibling and myself. Yet I believed perhaps all parents can be a little 'offish' and can make some mistakes too. Afterall I would tell myself they are human. However, this coping mechanism would be short lived. It wasn't until I married and had children that my mother decided to make my married life torturous too. Her sickness manifested during my two pregnancies, as she couldn't handle not being in the spotlight when the focus was shifted onto me - an expectant mum. Later as I became a mum she would question and criticize my own methods of mothering and nurturing. She would plot ways in which I could leave my husband because she had decided that she didn't want him in the picture any further. My husband (whom I believe to be my Guardian Angel) and I would all too often spend precious family time arguing over her push/pull method of trying to get my attention. She wants to be in control. And I recall a visit to the hospital where my father lay on a bed attached to a heart monitor and she demanded to know when he would be released so he could do the housework and cooking. She also uses the tactic of divide and conquer. She tarnishes and strains my fragile relationship with my elder sibling. The list goes on. Later in life as an adult I reluctantly give her numerous opportunities to offer some kind of redemption or apology. To this day, this has not happened. I have asked her to seek medical attention for her behaviour; she quipped that what she does with doctors is her business. Finally I confronted her to ask her to cease these childish, selfish, self absorbed and demanding displays, for the sake of her two innocent grandchildren and the sanctity that is my marriage. She then fainted in a way that was worthy of an Oscar! I recently found out through other family members that all of my photos once displayed in her home have now been removed. I decided I would not allow her legacy to continue. I severed ALL forms of communication and my life miraculously improved. It has now been 14 months since I have seen or spoken to her. I am now engaged in several hobbies and various interests, and am flourishing everyday. My husband, my children and I have a strong family unit. We enjoy more quality time together and laugh a whole lot more. I now have a strong, repaired bond with my sibling. I am happy! I am free! I would like to extend a thank you to all of you bloggers who through your sharing of your horrible experiences have inspired me to confront my demons and publicly display for the first time my series of events. Dealing with such emotions is in no stretch of the imagination an easy feat. Thank You.

Beth McHugh (13211) 28 Apr 2008 02:43 PM

Congratulations, SmallChanges, on escaping the sticky web of the narcissistic mother! Narcissists certainly provoke a raft of emotions in their children, from guilt to rage to grief. There is untold hurt and confusion but once you start to see that it is them who have the problem and there is no changing them, then you are well on the path to escape. Enjoy your new-found freedom!

SmallChanges (11) 30 Apr 2008 08:16 AM

Hello and thank you for your prompt reply Beth. I would like to further embellish about my ‘narcissistic’ mother and as to why she left me with no choice but to disown her and my father. My husband believes that her erratic behaviour and narcissistic tendencies became increasingly irritating after the birth of our blessed first child. Six months after the birth her very own mother passed away. And at the age of 96 was a wonderful, loving, sweet and dear old grandmother to me. You see my mother is a firm believer of the matriarchal family tree. Once the female family member who preceded her passed away it would then be her ‘duty’ to take on the role as ‘boss’ of the family and their respective households. Needless to say not only was this never an option but more to the point an extremely archaic and delusional way of thinking. She ruled with an iron tongue! My mother had become so increasingly self-righteous, each conversation with her entailed sentiments of obscurity and delusion which left me feeling so helpless. A family member recently told her to stop her ill feelings manifesting toward me and to move on with her own life, as I am happy now. To which she replied she wished me a miserable life and an even more miserable, slow, painful death. Is this woman sick or is this woman sick?! However, despite the fact I may have escaped her entangled, sticky web the entire experience has rendered me hurt and scarred. I can not help but fall into a depressive state of mind and begin to analyze as to why. I am blessed in many ways and am so grateful for my life, I acknowledge that. However, I realise I roam this earth devoid of a mother(figure.) There is no textbook or manual to teach us how to deal with OR come to terms with this kind treatment. For me it has been some form of mourning. I have mourned and grieved the loss of a mother metaphorically. How does one resume life fully aware that the very person who bore them is without any emotional attachment or love for them? Why are narcissists devoid of all goodness and so woeful and melodramatic when things don’t go their way? It may seem simplistic to hide behind the medical term Narcissistic Personality Disorder NPD but those of us who fall victim to their rein are left scarred and wondering what went wrong.

Beth McHugh (13211) 30 Apr 2008 03:33 PM

Hi Small Changes, you are right in saying there is no manual to teach you how to deal with having had a narcissistic mother. Unfortunately , there are no manuals for many things in life! Having successfully escaped physically from your mother, you will now have to go through the "whys?" and the grieving that naturally follows. There are logical explanations for NPD and it is possible to logically understand why your mother is the way she is. However, as you are experiencing, it is harder to accept this in your heart. The brain knowledge comes first, and is the first step to acceptance and freedom. If you would like help working on dealing with the emotional fallout of having a narcissistic mother, you can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Annie_ (5) 12 Jun 2008 01:12 PM

Hi Beth, I just found this blog article, and rushed to register. Thank you so much for writing it.

One thing that struck me: margaretp's comment (21 Jul 2007 12:01 PM) rings true for me, in terms of my experience with my own mother. I've found it impossible to find anyone (professional or otherwise) who will look at this "in the face". In my mother's case, I believe I'm probably dealing with psychopathy as much as narcissism. I suspect, from margaretp's post, that she may be dealing with the same thing. I've read most of the work by Robert Hare, Cleckly, Stout, etc... There seems to be very little information, or even consideration, of women as dangerous predators.

Just wondering what your thoughts are re: the boundaries between narcississm and psychopathy/sadism/predation - especially as they pertain to women, and the unwillingness of society (both lay and professional) to associate women with unrepentant acts of evil and terrorizing.

Thank you!

Beth McHugh (13211) 12 Jun 2008 03:36 PM

Hi Annie, I have treated a number of clients who have been in a "fallen through the cracks" scenario, whereby their therapists have failed to recognize that the mother of their client is suffering from NPD, and from that the client's problems have generated. In fact, many clients have told me that they have been told they have a "mother complex", implying that they (the client) are the root of the problem. Although adult children of narcissist parents can and do have emotional problems of their own, these problems are by nature treatable, unlike those of the full-blown narcissist. And naturally these adult children are obsessed to a point with the narcissistic parent - the damage can have life-altering effects on the adult child. So firstly, there is a general failure in many cases to recognize the presence of NPD. Secondly, NPD can exist with or without a sadistic side strand. Not all sadists are narcissists. There also appears to be a genetic link involving NPD, a topic I am currently undertaking research into. I know of at least three cases where sadistic tendencies in one parent coupled with narcissism in the other parent combined to form a child with sadistic and narcissistic tendencies. The remainder of the offspring in these families were unaffected by these disorders and yet suffered enormously due to the presence of both the dysfunctional parents and the older sibling. There is a reluctance by society and individuals in general to not acknowledge acts of sadism amongst women, especially when it is not of a criminal nature. There is a social myth that all mothers are lovable. Clearly this is not so, and it is a "rule" that my clients who have narcissistic mothers must address as part of their recovery process. Hope this helps! Beth

Freebird68 (41) 16 Jun 2008 01:21 PM

Can you please help me to explain to my 11year old son the fact his grandmother suffers from npd. Ive had to stop him seeing her unsupervised , as she constantly uses and manipulates him, even trying to get him to lie to me. I will not allow her to do to him what she did to me. I dont know what to say to him, or how to start, especially as i've only realised recently that she has npd, and am still coming to terms with it myself. I'm worried that if I don't deal with this properly, i'll do more damage than good.

Beth McHugh (13211) 16 Jun 2008 04:00 PM

Hi Freebird, your 11 year old won't really appreciate the full extent and ramifications of this personality disorder. However, he is probably already aware that your mother can be selfish and manipulative and he will have experience of that up to a certain point from his own life in the playground. Does he enjoy being with your mother? You are cautious to ensure supervised visits, at least until he is older and able to fend for himself. If he asks why he doesn't see grandma alone, you can explain in simple terms that grandma has a tendency make a lot of demands on people and that it is preferable if those demands are handled by an adult. Of course, that doesn't mean you give into your mother's demands! If you should need additional help with this situation, you can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Freebird68 (41) 16 Jun 2008 04:43 PM

Hi Beth, thanks for your swift reply. Yes my son does enjoy being with his gran, because she lavishes attention on him, albeit conditional, usually trying to highlight my inadequecies as a mother. This is actually aimed at my 16 year old daughter, who is very perceptive, and has had nothing to do with my mother for 4 years. My mother virtually ignored my son until my daughter refused to be controlled by her. (My daughter realised what my mother was like at 12. I was in my late 30's before I did!!) The problem is also that my childrens father is an alcohol and substance abuser, who doesnt wish to see them, but even if he did, is prevented by a restraining order. My mother abuses this fact, and uses it against all of us. My son is lonely, and craves the attention she gives him, which is why I havent stopped her seeing him before (and didn't she know it!). However in the last week she has told him personal information about mine and his fathers past, encouraged him to contact his father because she knows better than the court, and when i called her to ask why she keeps doing this to me, she put me on speakerphone on front of my son, and deliberately led (I now realise) the conversation to subjects an 11 year old shouldnt know about. I had enough trouble trying to explain his fathers behaviour to him, without this. He will think it's normal to have a personality disorder. I must admit that i looked at your site for the first time today and was so relieved to realise that theres a reason behind her evil behaviour. I can also see how i ended up marrying an alcoholic. I hate her, and dont feel much guilt now, but my son is asking questions i can't answer, because the truth sounds so far fetched: Granny lies, manipulates, hurts people deliberately, etc. I don't know. Maybe he's more resilient than i think. My elder brother suffers from npd too. Strange thing is , I knew this several years ago, and never realised she had it also. Guess i'm still getting my head around the enormity of the influence i've just realised she's had on my life, and the consequences of this. I'm very grateful for this site. Thankyou.

Beth McHugh (13211) 21 Jun 2008 04:39 PM

Hi Freebird, part of learning to cope with a narcissistic mother is learning to set boundaries and sticking by them. Growing up with a NPD mother usually involves having weak boundaries as the mother has little respect for the child and later, the adult child, so there is usually enmeshment going on which makes it hard to establish your own boundaries. What your mother is telling your son is unacceptable, hence it is important for you to establish firm boundaries with your mother. This will cause conflict as your mother will not be able to deal with playing by your rules rather then hers. However, it is a necessary process, both for you and your son, but especially for you. Best wishes, Beth

Freebird68 (41) 22 Jun 2008 09:21 AM

Hi Beth, thanks for your reply. I've had a few days for all this to sink in, and i think i'm relieved that there IS something wrong with her; that she's not just pure evil; that i'm not imagining it, and it's not my fault. I can see the bigger picture so much more clearly, and this has just strengthened my resolve not to let her do more damage to any of us. I'm more than prepared for the consequences of my decision. Thanks for your help and advice, and also this enlightening site!

Freebird68 (41) 22 Jun 2008 09:21 AM

Hi Beth, thanks for your reply. I've had a few days for all this to sink in, and i think i'm relieved that there IS something wrong with her; that she's not just pure evil; that i'm not imagining it, and it's not my fault. I can see the bigger picture so much more clearly, and this has just strengthened my resolve not to let her do more damage to any of us. I'm more than prepared for the consequences of my decision. Thanks for your help and advice, and also this enlightening site!

Beth McHugh (13211) 22 Jun 2008 03:06 PM

Hi Freebird, I 'm glad that you are feeling more positive about your mother and good luck in your new life with the new knowledge you now have. If you feel you need further assistance to deal with setting boundaries with your mother or going through the necessary grieving process that accompanies that process, please contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Freebird68 (41) 22 Jun 2008 06:10 PM

Thankyou Beth. I think i've already grieved for the mother I never had; the problem that I had was the guilt felt over the way I was dealing with her, ie, having little or nothing to do with her. Now I am positive I can't change her, or make her understand what she's done, I can accept that, and can move on and feel no guilt, knowing no matter what i'd done, it would never have been enough. I also realise that at 68 her behaviour is deteriorating, and understand she would have got worse. I think I actually feel relieved! I will certainly contact you in the future should I feel I need to, and will keep you posted if she reacts to my decision of supervised contact with my son, which I think she will. This could well be the final piece of my jigsaw! Thank you so much.

Beth McHugh (13211) 22 Jun 2008 07:16 PM

Go and enjoy your new life as a "free bird"!

eiramjiv (5) 23 Jun 2008 03:40 AM

Thank you everyone for helping me understand NPD a little and that there is a name for the way my Mother behaves. I have drastically cut down contact with her since I became pregnant for the second time two years ago. Since becoming a Grandmother for the first time her narcissitic behaviour worsened and she began talking to me through the baby saying things like 'your mother doesn't know what she is doing'. I was very vulnerable, she had a lot of power over me and I nearly lost the plot to the point that I thought I couldn't go through with the second pregnancy. Fortunately I sought help although it took a psychiatrist to tell me it was ok to not go to my Mother's 60th birthday party that she planned for herself. Needless to say I was met with the most horrid letter telling me that this was I was being so selfish by not coming and how could I do this to her etc etc. This is a Mother who told me so often how selfish I am when I was growing up that I truly believed her and unfortuantely still do. She is able to cut deep but perhaps less so now that I have kept her at a distance (250 miles). But she was able to repeatedly ruin my birthdays when I was young. But the worst was my 21st when she came to visit me at University and told me it wasn't just my birthday but her celebration of 21 years since giving birth to me. Apparently by wanting to spend time with my friends I was denying her and selfish. She stormed off across London and I spend a miserable few hours not knowing where she was trying to find her and certainly not having fun with my friends. What a dilemma - to love someone, to believe that they are not really a bad person, but how to emerge as someone in your own right. That is my struggle now to try and believe in myself and to understand that it is okay not to be like her. An additional element is that my sister is under her spell. We are from a small family (I have no cousins and my Father died when I was 15). So essentially there is just me, my Mother and my sister. My sister believes that I have a problem and cannot understand my reaction to my Mother. However, my sister is gentle, generous person who has found it acceptable to deny herself her own personality. She has taken on my Mother's mannerisms, they are inextricablly linked financially (my Mother maed it that way) and she seems unable to hold down a serious relationship with a man. I am losing a sister to this too. My greatest fear is of course that I will become like her as I have now become a mother myself. Also to decide what is the right level of contact for her to have with her grandchildren. I would love to understand at what generation this began however, my maternal Grandmother cut herself off from my Mother - herself being NPD?!! Hence my fear of repeating the pattern

Beth McHugh (13211) 24 Jun 2008 11:42 PM

Hi eiramjiv, many of the behaviors you describe are typical of narcissistic personality disorder. Having a mother who suffers from NPD is one of the heaviest emotional burdens a child must endure, and it often takes a person years, even decades, to work out what is actually wrong with their parent. All parents are powerful to their children, but few are as seemingly powerful as the narcissist, because everything just looks so "perfect" and the narcissist certainly broadcasts that they are perfect themselves and any attempt to point out the slightest flaw is met with rage or humiliation. I'm so glad for you that you were able to muster up the courage to have your second child, I do fully understand the power of the narcissist over even their adult children. But you now understand what is wrong with your mother and that places you in a much stronger position. If you are worried about being a narcissist yourself -- don't be! Narcissists do not have the emotional capability of asking themselves such a question and although many of my clients fear that they will end up "just like Mom" this is not the case. It is important for you to set clear boundaries with your mother, especially as you now have children. Although she can influence them, and will try to manipulate them, she will have less impact on them than she ever did on you and your sister, as they are a generation removed. Part of recovery involves learning to be your own person, too, rather than the pleaser and extension of your mother. It can be hard to extract yourself from the sticky web of a lifetime of trying to please a narcissist and/or believing the putdowns of a narcissist. But it can be done! If you feel you would benefit from counseling you can contact me at http://youronlinecounsleor.com

Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 24 Jun 2008 11:46 PM

Hi eiramjiv, an additional note to my last reply. For individual counseling in dealing with narcissistic mothers my web address is http://youronlinecounselor.com

what2do (5) 28 Jun 2008 11:08 AM

Beth, I've been married 18 years. My husband has been in his family business for 28 years. His father is 76 & still 'owns' the business (& makes sure that everyone knows it!). He could be a poster child for the Narcissistic personality. He remains in control of everything, even though he is almost too feeble to walk through the doors of the business & has not been able to actually do the work for the past 5-10 years. He shows up every day around lunch time, eats lunch then reads the newspaper front to back .. in between he will sit & observe my husband working at his desk.. demanding to know who it was that was just on the phone, what did he want? etc. & then he 'tells' my husband how he needs to handle the situation. My husband’s younger brother shares his fathers narcissism to the ninth degree. The brother whiles away his time but collects the same amount of pay as my husband. While I realize that neither I, nor my husband, can change the father & brother.. I am distressed at the way that my husband enables his father's & brother's behavior. I can't get my husband to read any books or material about being a child of a narcissistic parent - or dealing with a narcissistic sibling. My husband carries 95% of the work load for the 'family' business. Each time his father or brother exhibit their self absorbed behavior, my husband makes excuses for them. I can't make my husband see that the excuses for his father's & brother's horrible behavior not only enables the behavior but has a negative effect on not only him, but on our entire family. What should I do?

Beth McHugh (13211) 28 Jun 2008 06:22 PM

Hi what2do, this is a difficult situation for you as you seem to be the only one who recognizes that there is a problem here. Does your husband ever complain to you about his father's or his brother's behaviors? I ask that because if he does, there are positive steps you can take when/if he does so. It can be very difficult for people like your husband to see both the reality of what is going on AND to stand up to such a controlling parent. What often happens is that someone who is in your position, sees the damage that is being caused by this behavior and speaks out. The other party goes into denial and then you become the bad guy and troublemaker. I understand that not only is it not fair for your husband to be doing 95% of the work, but you would be worried about his health, and also the wellbeing of your family. Even when his father is no longer in the picture, there will be ongoing problems with the brother. As your husband is so enmeshed with the job and possibly has had little experience about employment away from his father, and certainly knows no life without his father in it, it seems he is caught in denial. In reality, you have a problem with your husband rather than your FIL or BIL. But that is good! You have a much greater chance of resolving issues with your husband than either of those other two men. I would need to know more specific information about your husband and his attitude to his dad and brother in order to make suggestions to you. You will need to set boundaries concerning your husband's behaviors if they are impacting on you and your family. For in-depth advice, you may like to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

lmv (10) 30 Jun 2008 02:28 PM

Hi Beth, sadly I am married to "what2do"'s BIL. We share some of the same frustrations, but in different respects. As "what2do" recognizes, while her husband does 95% of the work at the office, I do it at home. I am slowly coming to terms with the fact that I am not crazy and/or unrealistic in my expectations of marriage. I have been married to him for almost 5 yrs and sadly it has been some of the lonliest years of my life. The emotional abuse and some physical have been hard for me to understand. We have seen a couple of marriage counselors and the result has been the same... he feels he is doing nothing wrong, it is always someone elses' problem.

Some days I feel like I was mislead when I met him, all of the things he told me and the person I "thought" I knew is not the man I am married too. In addition, I am his third wife. That alone probably should have been a red flag from the beginning, but I believed his stories of being mistreated by those before me. What I have sadly had to come to grips with is that this man is not capable of loving me or anyone else he might encounter. I filed for divorce a couple of years ago, however I believed him when he said he wanted this marriage and would change. In that short time, we have had a beautiful baby girl. It saddens me to think she will grow up in this hostility and selfishness.

I don't trust the man as far as I can throw him. He lies about lies, some days I don't know how he keeps them all straight. He lacks any respect for anyone but himself.

I have lost hope, and I am ready to separate and/or divorce again. Sadly this is not something I want for me or my daughter, but I also know I cannot keep living this life forever. The more I read on NPD, the less hopeful I get. It doesn't seem like many recognize they have a problem and/or seek help. In addition, the more I read seems to be about how the loved one of the NPD needs to re-train or re-think their actions and words. He is so unpredictable, which makes it even more maddening. What worked one day doesn't work the next.....

He has labeled me as "emotionally unstable" which I find interesting and offensive, seing that my family has no history of mental illness while his family is plagued with it. Everyone in his family with the exception of "what2do"'s husband is on anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, anti-anxiety, painkillers or sleeping pills. You start to feel "emotionally unstable" when in a relationship with a NPD, you get sucked into their mind games.

I could go on for hrs, I am just thankful to have a wonderful SIL and to find resources to understand his behaviour. As I struggle with what decision to make, I feel some confort in knowing I am not alone in my journey, more importantly I am NOT selfish or unrealistic in my thinking.

I am eager for your response and will more than likely reach out to further at your website. Thanks!

andreea360 (20) 02 Jul 2008 12:35 PM

Oh my God.. having a narcissistic mother can be indeed harsh.. I bet she would even have an account on www.myspace.com !

Beth McHugh (13211) 02 Jul 2008 03:14 PM

Hi lmv, in all this pain you have suffered with your husband, at least you have the comfort of your SIL so that you are in no doubt as to exactly what you are dealing with. It is particularly difficult to remain emotionally stable while living under the same roof as a narcissist, and any sign of anger on your part only serves to reinforce the narcissist's sense of control and power as they watch you writhing with frustration. Because NPD does not enjoy the high profile of other mental illnesses such as schizophrenia or depression, it can years or even decades to discover that this is what you are really dealing with. So, do not be too hard on yourself in that regard. It sounds like you are coming to a place where you are ready to break the bond. Be aware that if your husband does indeed have NPD, there is no changing him as this condition is what is known as a pervasive personality disorder--it is an integral part of his make-up and personality. By all means contact me if you require assistance in dealing with the inevitable boundary problems associated with narcissists, together with residual anger and grief over the relationship. I wish both you and your SIL success and happiness.

DJStillHurting (5) 07 Jul 2008 10:48 PM

Hello Beth, I guess I can do nothing more than come to terms with the fact that my mother has NPD. My closest friend who has a degree in psychology has finally made me realize after years of tearful and agonizing encounters with my mom that she indeed has this disorder and that no matter what I try to do to change her horrible behavior, she will never change. I have recently shared this with my sister and we have both finally tried to investigate and get help for ourselves.

I have personally been the sole victim of my mother's abuse for almost all of my life, although I do have some very fond memories of her as a child and young adult. Although she was quite an absent parent at times leaving my sister and myself to fend for ourselves and stayed away for months at a time leaving my dad in charge as she galavanted with other men on vacations. I guess this was also a form of abuse since we were left unsupervised and could have gotten into much trouble wandering the streets in our young teen years. She never cared about our school work or where we were. I was allowed to date a 19 year old when I was 14. It was pretty much up to us to stay out of trouble. I believe it was my guardian angel who looked after me and kept me from harm. My sister and I were put in harm's way quite a few times with drugs and sex at our fingertips if we so chose that, but I always had a strong sense of who I was and stayed away from the hard stuff.

Mom left Dad when she got bored and took me with her, but left my sister at age 17 to live with her friend without ever even introducing herself to my sister's friend's parents. After the relationship with this other man also deteriorated. He was a famous religious evangelist by the way. She then returned to my father. We moved to so many different places it was hard to keep tract. My father worked very hard to get her a place she would be satisfied with. She spent so much money on clothes and furnishings that put my father into much debt. Her abuse was mainly directed towards my dad and then she started on me. I was a very recognized gospel singer in my area and she both manipualted and controlled me with bouts of crying and ignoring if I didn't choose the clothes or songs she picked out for me.

I have ALWAYS "bucked" my mother since I can remember and have remained a very head-strong person where she was concerned. I have come back at her with such force at times that I think at times she would fear my anger. At times I would give in to her whims just because it was so exhausting to keep up the fight. But mostly we battled until one of us won. Usually it was her. I was always a little overweight and I continued to grow larger as I grew older. I know I'm self diagnosing here, but probably I was trying to pay her back as she tormented me about my weight by eating more and more. I am now in my forties and obese. I have so many health problems related to being overweight, but I'm probably still trying to "spite her" as she has so often said. She is 80 yrs old and looks about 60. She has never gone out of the house without a wig or makeup and boasts about how "beautiful" everyone says she is. Even at 80 and a myriad of health concerns herself, she is till a force to be contended with.

My father is gone now (this she blamed on me because I went away for the weekend that it happened) But since his death she has dated quite a few men, sometimes a few at a time. Always the user and abuser, alas, they never worked out. And when they won't have anything to do with her anymore she'll just say "they don't know how to forgive" There was one whom she fought so furiously with, we think she actually enjoyed the conflict. She broke up with him at least 5 times, all of which my sister and I had to each time go to his home and retrieve her closet full of clothes. This became the family joke, but she didn't seem to mind as long as the attention was on her. She also has a life-long friend whom is her target and is abused the most by my mother. She even hits her at times. The only reason she is invited to mom's house is to do things for her. Lugging heavy items, ironing, cleaning, hanging curtains etc... Then puts her down and in front of us. We cringe at her abuse and it tears us up inside to see this wonderful friend treated so badly. One time when I was about 31 she lived with me but when we argued badly once she lashed out at me and beat me up. Punching me in my face and chest. I was so shocked and hurt I just stood there. I didn't speak to her for a few weeks and told her she must leave, but eventually forgave her.

A while ago, I realized that if I continued our destructive relationship I would end up hating her and never see her again, so I decided to cut myself off from her unless I had a "buffer" there with us. AT least this way she wouldn't start anything that she could lie about me any longer if I was dealing with her in front of others. This has worked only some of the time, but she really resents that I don't see her much anymore or answer a lot of her calls. It's just that every single time I soften up and let her in even a little, it turns out really bad. And you can NEVER trust her because if you let her in even just a little, she would always use it against you later on somehow to hurt you. I truly desire to be close but I MUST keep her at arm's length for "SELF PRESERVATION"

I cry when I think of how I got cheated out of a close relationship with her and have a deep longing to be loved and respected and accepted by her. Unfortunately, now that I have limited my ties with her, she has targeted my older sister and now my sister is suffering the way I have for so many years. My two older brothers never ever saw the Bad Mom we did until recently too. She has lied about all of us to the others and has pitted us against each other. Thank God this hasn't permanantly lasted. My oldest brother is quite well-to-do and she feels she deserves to share in his wealth so he is a target now too after all these years of being the "golden child" They do get worse with age, not better. Nor do they "mellow out" I knew our relationship was doomed after I shared with her many years later that when I was 16 I was raped by a boyfriend I met at church. The first thing she said to me was "You didn't tell anyone from the church did you?"

The emotional abuse I have suffered was often, and the only relief there was was when I was with my extended family and she was at her best around them. She had to make a good impression you know. No body would ever believe me if I told them. That is how very much she is admired and loved by the people who are not her target. I have disappointed her with my weight problem and it has nearly destroyed my health. Sometimes I think that if I developed AIDS and died, she would finally be happy that I at least was thin in my casket. And that's a damn shame.

Beth McHugh (13211) 08 Jul 2008 01:54 AM

Hi DJstillhurting,you have described some classic narcissistic behaviors here, the least of which is your mother's concern about whether you told anyone from the church that you were raped. I am glad your friend was able to convince you that you are dealing with NPD. This is the first step in recovery. Next comes accepting that your mother will not and cannot change. Also you realize that the situation does deteriorate as the narcissist ages. So you have a good understanding of what you are dealing with. Of course, the emotional acceptance is a lot harder than the intellectual understanding, and there can be much sadness, guilt and rage to work through. But there is light at the end of the tunnel! I wish you well in learning how to deal with your mother, which includes setting healthy boundaries. As you have also identified the connection between your mother and your weight problem, as you deal with issues surrounding your mother there will be movement in the weight department. Anytime you feel you need professional assistance, you are welcome to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Best wishes, Beth

amboo (5) 09 Jul 2008 10:26 AM

Hello Beth. I am the 28 year old daugther of a narcissistic mother. I've known my mother was ill for a long time, and discovered she had NPD after completing a psychology degree, and coming to terms with my own subsequent self-esteem issues. This was two years ago, and by the time I sought counselling, I was already on my way to using appropriate strategies for dealing with her (getting away from her!). Counselling was very beneficial for me, but the effects of my childhood hell still linger. Mostly, I worry about my siblings. One of my brothers also has NPD, another seems to be on his way, and the other, like myself, has taken the brunt of her hurt, resulting in feelings of worthlessness. It is him I worry about. At 20, he doesn't understand what a personality disorder is, and is easily swayed by her tactics. She often uses guilt to convince him he is a "bad son", when in truth he and I have "helped" her more than any others, and she, in turn, has inflicted more pain on us than any others. I have mostly kept my understanding of this disorder to myself, and simply keep her at arm's length. But I still have to deal with her via dealing with her hurting others. I need to keep this person in my life forever because she is my mother, yet she is one of most horrible self-absorbed people I shall ever meet. How can I do this? And most recently, the situation has been complicated by a diagnosis of myalgic encephalomyelitis for myself, a neuroinflammatory disorder causing pain and fatigue, among other things. Even though she is a health care professional, and knows I've been diagnosed, she has never once asked how I am or even acknowledged that I have this illness. Last time I saw her, she screamed at me incessantly, was cruel to me for days, and then wrote me an email to tell me she couldn't believe I didn't take her out for a meal, and I take for granted my life is full of activities (despite the fact that I have a debilitating disease that drastically reduces my activities) and her isn't (which is my fault somehow). Becuase I need to reduce stress, I feel at this point that I need to cut her out completely for my health. Any suggestions for this? Should I simply stop taking her calls/emails? I then feel guilty because I know this just leaves more for my brother. Thanks, Amber

Beth McHugh (13211) 10 Jul 2008 09:50 PM

Hi Amber, this is an awful situation, but your body is telling you via the ME that you do need to cut your stress levels. Part of being an adult child of a narcissist is the lack of boundaries in the family, and this is where the more caring members of the family come to grief at the hands of the narcissist. As you are toying with the idea of cutting ties, you will need coping skills to develop the strength to do this and not cave in with guilt. As regards your 20 year old brother, he is old enough to read about NPD and come to his own conclusions about how he will deal with the situation. As a responsible sister, you can point him in the right direction but that is all you can do. You will also need to develop a game plan for how you will deal with the fallout of any anger from your mother when she discovers you have "left". Recognizing the condition and also seeing that you need to look after your own health at this point in time is great. You can see also that your mother shows you little respect for your illness and unfortunately it is one of the less visible and thus less "real" illnesses, that people can more readily dismiss. If you need help with easing yourself out of the situation with as little emotional damage to yourself as possible, feel free to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com Best wishes, you will get there! Beth

StillOnTheRun (10) 29 Jul 2008 11:14 AM

A comment on wolfinsideher's worry about her elderly Nmother being in a NH instead of living with her: I am the only child of a Nmother; I left home at 18, moved to another city and never even considered residing in the same area code again. My therapists encouraged me to go NC, but I wouldn't risk losing my relationship with my father; so I set boundaries, and limited the type and frequency of contact. I succeeded in keeping Nmother mostly at bay for quite a few years. As I result I have a hopeful life and am not completely insane. Then Daddy died. By that time, my mother was this physically frail little old lady who had never been on her own (by design) and me being me, I was somewhat trapped. I felt like a sword was hanging over my head during the next few years as I ended up providing more and more and more eldercare even as my mother's "friends" (subjects) reported, and she "hinted," that she was basically expecting to live with me soon. I thought, "Not as long as I have the option of getting a fake passport and burning my fingerprints off with acid." This life I've fought so hard for would literally be destroyed if she lived in my house. I can't imagine how I would survive if I had to see her every day, all day. It's too horrible to even think about.

So when she fell and ended up in rehab and a wheelchair, I very quickly arranged for assisted living before she was released. And yes, yes, I caught hell and I continue to hear on a regular basis about all the seniors she knows who are living with their adult children and how that's the way things have always been done in "nice Southern families," which may be true. I always used to wonder why so many Southerners hung themselves in the barn. Sure, there are outsiders and extended family who clearly think I'm not the best daughter in the world. But I feel I've behaved more than decently toward her - I see that she's perfectly well cared-for by professionals -- and I still have a little sanity and happiness. Beth, your articles on "Defending Yourself Against the Aging Narcissist" are quite helpful - those tips work! I still feel trapped into having more regular contact with Nmother, but so far I've stopped my backsliding to the bad old days. Maybe it's a little cold ... but I don't think she gets to go back to torturing me just because she's old now.

Beth McHugh (13211) 30 Jul 2008 05:19 PM

Hi Still on the Run, I'm sorry to hear that you feel you are "still on the run" yet I fully understand the pressure that you feel you are under to be a compassionate human being and yet looking after yourself so you don't go back into the emotional horror of living with a full-blown aging narcissistic mother. Yes, you will have to ignore comments both from your mother and well-meaning but essentially naive outsiders who do not understand what it is like to have such a mother. Any spare bedroom on your house becomes both a potential target of residence for your mother and a potential "room of guilt" for you as you try to keep those hard-earned boundaries up. But keep reading as much as you can on the disorder; at times when you feel weak or guilty, remind yourself that you don't have to love your mother because not all mothers are lovable. I'm glad my articles have been helpful to you and be strong! If you need additional help you can always contact me, but you sound like you have the situation in hand. Best wishes, Beth

StillOnTheRun (10) 31 Jul 2008 10:26 AM

Beth, Thank you for your kind response. I am doing pretty well everything considered. The therapist I saw 15 years ago has retired and I should probably ask him for a referral during this transition with my mother. I do feel a little emotionally shaky from time to time. I'm OK as long as I keep believing that I have a right to this life I've built and that I'm not a bad person because I don't dismantle it and go back to being unhappy in order to take care of my mother in the way she believes I should. I am still affected, periodically, by stern religious lectures from my mother, the gist of which is "life isn't always easy and fun" and that my cousin told her "it's time that she (me) stepped up and accepted her responsibilities." Apparently the message from the Moral Majority in my mother's circle is that "the party's over" for me and I should be spending my days taking care of my mother personally or I'm a shallow, selfish *itch. And if I'm miserable for all the years ahead (and she might well outlast me), tough - that's "the way life is." I guess the debate is: When is self sacrifice noble and the right thing to do, and when is self sacrifice pointless and destructive? I think for my mother and me, the latter is the case. Plus I'm not real clear on why my mother should live out her life according to her preferences and my life doesn't count at all - if I'm destroyed by serving her needs, so be it. How is that a moral situation? Why, all of a sudden, is the simple happiness I've been able to cobble together a SIN?

I do feel guilty at the soaring joy I felt when I handed my mother over to the AL staff. Like a mountain had been lifted off me. I call once a week, which I dread and steel myself for, and I drive up to visit once a month - usually can't even sleep the night before, sometimes I have to pull off the highway and cry. Even when the visits go "well," I'm still drained from the fear of what might happen. I can't imagine surviving more contact than that, at least not with my soul and spirit intact. I think that if my mother got her wish and lived with me, it would be a matter of time before I had a nervous breakdown and back mother would go to AL. I figure, why not skip the part where I end up in a mental hospital?

sc62049 (51) 31 Jul 2008 03:00 PM

I'm trying to get on line.

sc62049 (51) 31 Jul 2008 03:50 PM

My grandmother said something very interesting to me. She said, when you was a baby, you asked just like me. She brought some feeling that I have not felt in a long time. It was the most depressing time in my life. My grandmother use to keep me upset. When you are a child you go along with the flow. You have no say so. Grandma got away with a lot of stuff that she use to do to me. I use to cry and I was so depressed. My mother use to say,"It's alright". I wanted her to defend me but she couldn't. No more waiting for someone to defend me. I started talking up for myself at the age of 21 years old. I also talked up for my mother. My grandmother can say hurtful things to my mother. My mother would always had me to talk to my grandmother. Grandma wanted to be in control of everybody. If you didn't do what she say then she give the silent treatment, Grandma loves give money so that she could stay in control. I learned a long time ago to be independent. My grandmother and I bumps head. When she get silent, I move on.(THE END) When she tried to get between my sister and I, she found that we communicate with each other. (THE END) She tried to say something shocking about my mother teenage years after she pass away. She was shock that I knew more that her(THE END) She said,"I wish I were dead" about fifth times. I told here to do what she have to do(THE END). She full of games. The biggest game she playing is trying to make me depress like her or get me angry. For ex. It's a shame his father didn't help you take care Ray. My respond was," How did I do raiser him? (THE END) I see my grandma three times a week. Sometimes we talk about the pass or we just watch TV. I refuse to let her get under my skin because I know She is not well.

Beth McHugh (13211) 01 Aug 2008 03:12 AM

Hi Stillontherun, it would be good if we could change your title to "Stoppedrunningatlast!". Seriously, you have done most of the hard work involved in setting up healthy boundaries with your mother, it is the guilt of doing so you now have to conquer. It can be done! You have let go of the hope that your mother will change and that is always the biggest stumbling block in these situations. All I can do is to suggest that you keep on doing what you are doing. I understand the exhaustion involved in keeping up the fences, so if you need help at examining why you still hold certain beliefs that are bringing you guilt then you can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 01 Aug 2008 03:16 AM

Hi sc62049, I sounds like you have been successful at quite an early age at working out what your grandmother was up to. Even now, as she becomes older and tries to increase her influence over you and others, you are resisting. Well done!

sc62049 (51) 02 Aug 2008 07:24 PM

Hi, Beth and Still on the Run. I have been looking for a site like this for a long time. In your life you come to a point when you say "enough is a enough".After reading about what everybody had to say, I felt a very calmest came over me. Yesterday, I went to visit my grandmother. My son called on the telephone and said that he was downstairs. He wanted me to hurry out of the house because he had somewhere to go. At that moment, My grandma wanted me to go and get her mail out of the mailbox. I Said, "OK" As I left her house. I got into my son car. SHE WANTED A REACTION ( YOU KNOW I'm BUSY!. MY SON IS WAITING FOR ME! ) that she didn't get .

sc62049 (51) 09 Aug 2008 02:59 PM

Beth, my mother had eight children. I now know the roll, that my mother played. When I look at my sisters and brothers, I notice that we all have some of those traits. Does that mean, we are narcissistic too? My grandma said that she heard "I love you" from her mother death bed. My mother said the say thing to me when she died. I really thought I done a good job in kissing and holding my baby. This year, my son said he sometimes had to grab me because I wasn't comfortable in hugging him. Now I tell his, "I love you" I hug him. This just one of the traits.

Beth McHugh (13211) 10 Aug 2008 04:21 PM

Adult children of narcissistic parents commonly question themselves as to whether they are narcissists too as they are sensitized to selfish behaviors due to their upbringing. However, if a victim of a narcissist asks this question it is usually an indication that they themselves are not narcissists as narcissism essentially involves an inability to be objective about one's own behavior. There seems to be a genetic/learned behavior aspect to narcissism and it sometimes runs in families, but it is highly unlikely that all your siblings are narcissists. Your reluctance to hug your son is not a sign of NPD, merely an indication of the lack of physical affection in your birth family. The fact that you can rectify the situation and understand that it is important to do so is again is an indication of the lack of narcissism in your own make-up. Hope this helps, Beth

jakeupgeese (6) 14 Aug 2008 03:45 PM

For years, I couldn't understand why my brother was held in such high esteem. I didn't understand why I was the main target of my mother's rage. I used to use terms like manipulator, liar, thief, stoic, and evil to describe my mother's behavior. I watched as she would disseminate conjecture, gossip, and fabrications in order to provoke and inveigle other relative to her side. I have been the recipient of countless put-downs disguised as concern. Despite that I have never lied, stolen, or manipulated other family members, she has somehow managed to discredit me. When I threatened to report her abuses to the family she would flatly say "They won't believe you." I later learned that she was correct. I tried to approach family members with her abuses and had handfuls of examples to help me support my claims. They brought my concerns straight to the offender and allowed the mythomaniac to substitute my facts with her version of events. Not once has my mother showed any genuine emotion in private. Only when people are present to witness her doting behavior. I wrote down all of the examples I could think of to justify my claims and it took over 30 pages. I am 36 and I suffer from seizures, rage, severe anxiety attacks, A.D.D., and O.C.D. I don't know if any of these conditions are a result of 35 years of abuse; however, a year ago I decided to break all contact with her and the majority of my family. So far, my anger has subsided a little and I stopped trying to convince my family of her cruelty. Recently, she started spreading the rumor that I am mentally unstable and that she and I could not have a relationship until I sought professional psychological help. Another barb disguised as concern.

Beth, there is such a thing as pure EVIL on this planet. You can couch my mother's actions as a disorder or a sickness. Although I don't wish her upon anybody, you have to experience the downtrodden, disapproving looks, rage, put-downs, lies, and stoicism before you can describe her EVIL as a disorder. My unprofessional advice to any person trying to salvage a relationship with a truly narcissistic person...DON'T! They are emotional vampires who feed on your pain and will attempt to destroy all things good in your life. I walked away over a year ago and I recommend the same.

Beth McHugh (13211) 15 Aug 2008 12:04 AM

Hi Jakeupgeese, as with any emotional disorder there are variations in degrees of narcissism, which can also include sadistic traits, as you have experienced. Some people do become quite upset that this condition is called narcissistic personalty disorder as if the term "disorder" somehow downgrades the damage caused to those who are subjected to the effects of a narcissist, or that their behavior is somehow excused because they are "sick". No therapist would convey that, and certainly no narcissist would suggest that, because as you would appreciate, narcissists are perfect and could never be "sick" in any form. However, as with any psychiatric illness, the APA tags all conditions with the suffix "disorder". Hence, borderline personality disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, attention deficit disorder, etc. Of course, no mere name can convey the pain and suffering that accompanies any of these disorders. Rage is also a common outcome of having suffered at the hands of a narcissistic parent, particularly a mother. It's great that you have been able to seek the help you needed to allow you to physically extract yourself from the toxic environment that your mother has produced.

coming2terms (5) 20 Aug 2008 10:13 PM

I've spent the past few hours sifting through these posts, saying out loud, oh my, I'm not crazy, it's not in my head, she really is a narcissist. My mother is diagnosed as bipolar, but after reading, I'm more convinced she's a narcissist. Either way she's driving me completely insane (well almost). She's crafty, controlling, sneaky, cunning, manipulative, a victim, and deserving of an acadamy award for her performances. I too have suffered emotional, physical, verbal abuse, the silent treatment, being smacked & choked by my necklace, ripped of off the floor in her fits of rage, as an adult pitted against my brother (who is her knight in shining armor now that I've distanced myself). About this time last year, I really started to defend myself to her when she would call and try to play games with me. This was hard at first, I found myself shakey and sick inside the first few times. You see she's a passive aggressive and capable of leaving detinators in my brain that explode days after we've spoken. The tone of her voice haunts me. She belittles me as a person, as a wife, and as a mother. She has outright told me I stay with my husband because of money (he had an affair 5 years ago, which we went through counseling for, and if you've ever been a spouse that's been cheated on, they are hard shoes to walk in even on my best days). She has called me a "rich bit-h" and many other choice things with such venom. She will even say nice things to me but in a very condesending tone which makes me wonder if I'm the one with the problem. All of this from the person who has never divorced my father (a total control tactic), and after leaving him almost 20 years ago at the advice of her counselor (who she slept with and told me about as a child), is living with her "boyfriend" who is a complete enabler (he invented the word). All the while sitting at home with nothing but time on her hands plotting and screwing with me whenever she gets the chance. She reads self help books and according to her everyone else has problems but her. She recommended a book called the anatomy of jealousy to me, and said and I quote, "I could really screw with someone with the information in this book". This is what I deal with constantly. She has always tried to manipulate my boys, her own grandkids, but the true mama bear comes out and I can put my foot down when it comes to them. She parades in and out of our lives, acting as if nothing has ever been said or done trying to buy my boys with gifts and money. When I've tried to discuss my issues with her she screams over me in raging tyrants, hangs up on me, and then avoids me. Then I'll get a random email or forward of a prayer or poem, and am left scratching my head. Trust me, I've only touched on a small amount of my experience with my mother, but I will say this story and the blogs have been so helpful. For the first time, in a long time I don't feel so alone with this maddness. I am truly coming to terms with her illness and taking my power back from her. Can you recommend any books on setting boundaries with a narcissist? Thank you for your time, you are appreciated.

Beth McHugh (13211) 21 Aug 2008 12:31 AM

Hi coming2terms, thanks for your comments, I'm glad you found the articles useful. In terms of setting boundaries with your mother, it really is important to know whether she has bipolar or NPD, the latter requires a different approach to boundary setting, and so an accurate diagnosis is really required. Unfortunately the typical narcissist never seeks therapy and so the nearest one can get is really a diagnosis by proxy. Your mother would have to not only fulfill the diagnostic criteria for NPD but your own reactions to her would also be taken into account. If you are really dealing with NPD, rather than bipolar or even BPD, you will experience difficulties in setting boundaries as the narcissist will continually ignore both them and you. So it is not really a simple case of setting boundaries as you would with other difficult people. I am currently in the process of writing a book on dealing with narcissists, but that is of no use to you at the moment! I am doing this because I am finding that there is a lack of practical books available. Even with the aid of a book, true narcissists can be so destructive that their adult children can have emotional disorders of their own to deal with. If you feel you would benefit from additional help you are welcome to contact me at http://youronlinecounsleor.com Best wishes, Beth

needtoknow (40) 24 Aug 2008 07:17 PM

I am an adult child of an NPD mother. I have been cast in the role of scapegoat all my life, and have no comprehension of what it must feel like to be one of the two accepted siblings. I have never had any real relationships with my siblings but am working hard at the beginnings of one, despite a current set-back. Recently mam had her most horrific rage at me to-date, as if she was trying to completely destroy me, and she is now trying to get me to take the blame for it, and claming that it was I who raged at her, and I who said the terrible things which she actually said to me. As a result my recent (1-2 years) warming relationship with the golden child sister has now stopped on her part. I would like to understand why, from my sister's perspective, she has stopped contact, and how the golden child feels/sees her relationship with mam. It looks to me, from the outiside, like they have a mutually loving, supportive relationship, and that she truly loves mam and cannot live without her. Until I read your articles on NPD and recognised my family I thought she must just believe the lies mam is telling about the incident, and is angry with me for 'hurting' mam (in fact I have been expecting to be berated by her and ordered to crawl back for more abuse) but now I realise that it may be more complex than that for her and she may not feel as loved/loving with mam as it appears from the outside. Having just learned about NPD I have decided not to persue the contact with my sister for now, since she may be forced to lash out or reject me, and I know she cannot bear to hear anything negative about mam, so trying to explain the truth to her will be useless, since I am historically considered to be the guilty one. But I want so much to understand my sister, and her relationship with mam as she sees it. They are constantly in-touch and my sister seems to love treating mam and there appears to be no resentment or unhappiness about her relationship with mam, indeed it seems to be fundamental to my sister's happiness, unlike myself who learned long ago that I was on my own and 'wrong'. Please help me understand the golden child relationship, or tell me where to look to find it, rather than just more info on NPD. I wish to not loose our new found 'sisters' thing, and I need to understand her, since talking with this degree of reality is still too dangerous a subject for our feldgling relationship.

passioknitgirl (10) 25 Aug 2008 09:23 PM

I am so glad to have found this site. I just learned within the past year that my mother has narcissistic personality disorder. No, she hasn't been to a counselor because SHE considers herself to be absolutely perfect, but I have spent the past 36 years in counseling, dealing with the damage she has done to me and my therapist recognized the symptoms. I've always known I didn't like my mother, but all her lies have kept me so confused, I've always blamed myself for what she does. She is so good at it, she even convinced me it was my fault when I was gang raped at 21, because I "deserved it." That rape never would have occurred if my mother hadn't been so absorbed in the good time she was having and all the "compliments" she was getting about looking "young enough to be her daughter's sister." She watched the men take me away, drugged and nearly unconscious, and did nothing to stop it, when all she'd have had to do was take me home. I was lucky, I suppose...I lived. But, when I eventually confronted my mother about her non-action, she first called me a liar, then a drunk, then a whore, and finally said that she really liked all those people (whom we had only met that night) and had had a very good time with them. She knew none of them would ever have done something I didn't want, so obviously I wanted it, and I should just get over it. She even gave the ringleader my home telephone number! I've always thought that in some sick part of her mind, she was jealous that they didn't want to rape her instead of me. I didn't go after my attackers legally because my mother said she'd testify that I was lying, and she really made me think that it was all my fault anyway. Today, she denies the incident ever happened. She has even told my brothers that I made the story up to try to hurt her and that I am "not right mentally" because I always make up lies about her. She doesn't treat my brothers like this, although she's bad enough that neither of them care to be around her either. That's just one thing my mother has done out of her narcissism. There are countless others, but I think I could get past all the hurts if I could just walk away from my mother and never look back. She seems to have some kind of hold on me that I can't break. I go from hating her to feeling guilty for hating her to thinking that she is going to change. I see after reading these other posts, now, that change for her is impossible. But, I can't feel bad for her after all she's put me through. I just want her out of my life. How does someone say to her only living parent (my father died when I was a child) that she never wants to see or hear from her again and stick with it?

Beth McHugh (13211) 26 Aug 2008 01:36 AM

Hi needtoknow, if your mother truly does have NPD, and it is important to establish whether the condition is actually present, then your sister would have to had bypassed her own needs and wishes and aligned them with those of her mother's in order to be constantly dealing with her and not feeling invisible and merely a servant. She may not even be consciously aware of this, and yet if you criticize your mother to her, she leaps to your mother's defense. This in itself is abnormal because nobody is always right and so there must, statistically and humanly, be times that your mother is wrong. And yet your sister can't tolerate this reality. If your mother is somehow essential to your sister's sense of wellbeing, as you suggest, than she has psychologically aligned herself with your mother and this would also explain why she cannot bear to hear anything bad about your mother because that would mean that if she accepted it, it would challenge her view of reality. There is really nothing special or "golden" about your sister. Obviously your mother sees her as the golden child but that is because your sister is obviously no threat to your mother. You on the other hand pose some sort of threat to your mother, which is why she cannot tolerate any behavior of yours that shows her in a less than perfect light. Your sister sounds quite enmeshed with your mother and does not seem to be questioning any of your mother's actions at all. This is what the process of adolescence is all about, and it sounds worrying for your sister that she cannot live without your mother, if that is indeed the case. At this point in time any relationship you have with your sister would have to be run on very strict guidelines, where obviously you are not able to express your true feelings about your mother. If you steer clear of that, then there will be less likelihood of a fallout. Hope this helps. Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 26 Aug 2008 01:47 AM

Hi passionknitgirl, I'm sure there are countless stories that you have about your mother, but the one about the rape speaks volumes. First the placement of the blame onto you, and then the denial that it ever occurred. I have heard countless variations on this theme since I have focussed much of my energies into dealing with adult survivors of narcissistic parents. One of the problems you would benefit from working on the the idea of wanting your mother to change. This one really has to go and you can never really be free until you can break that hope. Yet it can be done! And that needs to be successfully accomplished before making any sort of a permanent physical break with her, if that is your goal, because while you live in hope that she will one day love you as you deserve, you can move to the moon and never see her again and yet that hope will not go away. You will be vulnerable to her and others with similar personality traits. It is also hard to "just walk away" and stick with it without going through an anger and grieving process. I hope this helps. If you feel you would like help in detaching emotionally from your mother you are welcome to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com Best wishes, Beth

passioknitgirl (10) 26 Aug 2008 05:25 AM

Thank you, Beth, for your advice. It has never occurred to me that I should go through anger and grieving in order to break from my mother. I guess both those things seem like weaknesses to me--like I'm falling for her tricks all over again by letting her get me so emotional, but I'm going to talk to my therapist about this and do everything possible to move past this and into the life I should have. I think this forum will help, too, as I have never actually met anyone with a mother anything like mine, which is a lonely feeling--especially when most women rave about how good friends they are with their mothers. I wouldn't know what that's like.

Beth McHugh (13211) 26 Aug 2008 02:59 PM

Hi passioknitgirl, the anger and grieving will empower you to detach, they are not signs of weakness, they are natural manifestations of facing the truth of the situation. To truly accept your mother as she really is, to give up all hope of her changing and to let go completely, will involve you getting in touch with your anger. Your sadness is already apparent when you speak about your loneliness when other women talk about their mothers. Facing that truth is part of the grieving process you will have to go through as well. But you will come out on the other side! Best wishes, Beth

needtoknow (40) 30 Aug 2008 07:51 PM

Hi Beth, mam truly has NPD, there is no doubt. Although I have only learned of, and been reading about NPD for the last couple of weeks I have been aware of (and coming to terms with) all these 'symptoms' for years, but in a random, painful, confusing, ever-shifting, blamed-on-me, way. Discovering the name for it has been like the family jigsaw puzzle just slotting together in a way which for the first time in my life makes complete and utter sense, and is not just a swirling, shifting mess of fear, (false)guilt, pain, grief, and incomprehensible loss. Reading the lists of symptoms, [e.g., http://www.geocities.com/zpg1957/narcissists.htm] after a lifetime of never meeting anyone similar to my family, felt like I was reading a paper which was written exactly about them. (I have just typed in some examples to 'prove' it to you, but had to delete them since they are too painful, but please take my word for it - she is). And to see all these people's stories and to know I am not alone in living with this (I am sorry I can only share my feeling and not my story) is so helpful to me. I know my whole family live under this tyranny but it is never acknowledged or talked about or recognised. I can see its effects on my dad, my 'rejected' sister and brother; but I still fail to comprehend the relationships of the 'apparently' loved sister and brother with mam. As for the rest of us, mam has successfully kept us isolated from one another so none of us have any real relationships with one another except via her, so the isolation is from the whole family when mam turns against you. However the 'loved' sister married a probable N and when she left him she was severed from her young children, and the 'loved' brother has N traits towards me, but I don't see him often. The two 'loved' children have a strong, loving, regular relationship with each other as well as with mam and dad.

You said that any relationship with my sister would have to run on very strict guidelines, where I am not able to express my true feelings about mam, and you are right, this has indeed been the case while working at establishing our recent important relationship. But it appears that I cannot avoid a fallout, since it is now clear that she has ceased contact with me altogether. The other problem is my dad; he has a lot of health problems and he too (while he does want to keep in touch with me) does not ring me at all, even when he goes into hospital; and every time I try to ring or visit I get 'hit' with this thing that she wants me to take responsibility for.

I know from experience that even if I were to take the blame for her terrible outburst against me, even if I were to apologise to her for her tirade of fury and hate towards me [in order to regain the relationship with my dad and my sister] this will not be sufficient - she would not rest with that, she wants to crush me into abject submission. I know I could not personally survive the onslaught. Even just thinking about appeasing her to some degree in order to get to my dad and sister; and before every attempted reconciliation I have made so far by phone and in person, I feel my chest tighten with fear, acid rises up in my mouth and my brain turns to mush. Beth, how can I keep in touch with my dad who wants to, and my sister who I don't know if she wants to, without being crushed in the attempt? Does keeping a safe distance from an N mum, alive and controlling, mean losing the few family members I have any sort of relationship with? Please advise me on the way forward.

Beth McHugh (13211) 30 Aug 2008 08:48 PM

Hi needtoknow, each person's case is so different even though the dynamics of NPD are grossly similar, that I really can't easily answer this in the scope of this forum. There are many possibilities to weigh up - whether certain members of your family wish to be in contact with you, skills you need to cope with your mother if you do decide to do that. There will also be a torrent of emotions regarding your mother to deal with, and while you are in the process of dealing with them, you will find yourself sensitized to her behaviors. You also have to accept the fact that not only can't you change your mother, but you also cannot change your sister or father or other siblings. You can only change yourself. It's hard, but not impossible! You can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if you feel you need individual help in coping with the dynamics of NPD. Best wishes, Beth

Purple1 (10) 23 Sep 2008 02:04 PM

I so identify with needtoknow's situation with the sister. The same thing happened with every one of my family members each time I took a break from my mom. My dad told me outright he couldn't have a relationship with me as mom would make life too hard. My experience has shown that those who are close to an N usually are not healthy enuf themselves to have a relationship w/someone who is healthier (or at least trying to get there!). My cousin, who is like a sister, was my last hold out. She had both my mom and I in her life for a long time, but this year that finally ended, too. When I made my last break from my mom (just before she ruined my wedding), my brother bailed on me. Now my cousin took longer but went the same route. (She's the golden child just like you described your sis! Funny how similar these situations are.) Just know you aren't alone, and it hurts, and I feel your pain. Good luck and God Bless. And God Bless Beth for this amazing site that is helping us all.

Beth McHugh (13211) 24 Sep 2008 03:19 PM

Hi Purple1, it hurts dreadfully to have a narcissistic mother and be denied the love and affection that every child deserves. It also hurts that your father is so enmeshed with your mother that he has effectively chosen her over you and does not either see or acknowledge her failure to engage with you in a healthy relationship. In all dysfunctional families of any type, when one member attempts to either break away or hold up a mirror to the dysfunctional behavior, there will be a "gathering of the troops" and the threat of expulsion from the family group. There will be choices made by family members, and the "outsider" or "troublemaker" will be ostracized. This seems to be happening in your case and it is very painful. You can always contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if you need additional help in getting through this. Best wishes, Beth

Purple1 (10) 25 Sep 2008 08:31 AM

Thanks, Beth. Yes, it is hard. My dad has actually passed since that time, and I got close to my mom during his illness and murder in a nursing home. Unfortunately, during that trauma, I let down all the healthy boundaries I had set up. I look back and see my error now. So, when my wedding came up, that triggered another outburst, which is when I told her I couldn't have a relationship w/her unless she got help. (Ha, that's a funny one, I realize now. N's by definition don't get therapy.) I'd read a lot about NPD, was in therapy at the time, and knew I had to do it or lose myself. Still, it is never an easy decision. And it seems no choice is perfect. We each make our own. My brother chose sides immediately, which I expected. It is the loss of my cousin 2 years later that has sent me searching again. That plus the guilt of not seeing my mother. So, I'm back in therapy. Just started. But it's so good to know you are available. I'm not sure yet if my new therapist "gets" NPD. I'll find out in our second session. I think that is critical for my work. Techniques that work in "regular" dysfunction don't always work w/NPD. (I'll never forget the time I tried to use all my interpersonal conflict resolution skills and told my mom I wanted our relationship to be better and to stop fighting, and couldn't we get help together. Oh, Lord, how naive I was back then.) So, thanks for your site, your articles, and your offer of help.

Beth McHugh (13211) 25 Sep 2008 03:08 PM

Hi Purple1, you are right, no choice is perfect. What a trauma for you, having your father murdered in a nursing home, no wonder you let down your barriers. And as for use of the conflict resolution skills, unless you know that you are dealing with NPD, you would have had no idea that these techniques could not work. At least you can say it was a learning lesson. Dealing with a narcissist does require a different set of skills -- more like harm minimization (to yourself!) and crisis management. Even the boundary work is slightly different to dealing with "normal" people. Good luck with it, it sound slike you are progressing in your journey. Best wishes, Beth

liberty28 (50) 01 Oct 2008 02:19 AM

Oh, boy - just jumped in on this forum, you guys are amazing - true survivors. margaretp - I understand exactly where you are coming from. Are they mad or bad? I totally agree, they don't get off scott free just because someone says that they are mad and therefore not responsible!!!

These are creatures of some sort - and you are absolutely right, animals would die to protect their offspring - not these creatures. I agree that they are very dark entities indeed.

liberty28 (50) 01 Oct 2008 02:25 AM

Spiritwarrior "I am starting to grasp that I will never have the acknowledgement or apology of the abuse that went on only today."

If your experience is anything like mine, don't hold your breath for an apology or any recognition of what she did to you. As someone said to me, we all hold out the hope that our tormentor will, when confronted by his or her actions, will see things differently - alas it isn't to be with these ones.........they just don't get it.

liberty28 (50) 01 Oct 2008 02:35 AM

Notabrat - oh what a sad sad story of your brother my heart goes out to you and your other brother.

There seems to be degrees of severity for this condition and your mother seems to be among the worst of a very bad bunch, from what I can tell.

The fear of them discovering that you are hear talking about them - yeah, I know what you mean, but don't give her that control.

liberty28 (50) 01 Oct 2008 02:51 AM

Spiritwarrior:- "I will be relieved that she is finally gone and out of my life for good. I know that is a hard thing for some to believe or hear but they don't know what I have been through."

I don't think that survivors of NPD's parents would have a problem with your view.

liberty28 (50) 01 Oct 2008 03:02 AM

Margret - "Why are they getting away with it?"

It is totally infuriating - WHY do they GET AWAY WITH IT!? Little snippets of information, of insight from other victims I think can help us all get through this.

On another site someone mentioned cowardice, and this certainly rang a bell with me. My mother is incredibly menacing when crossed and I think people immediately pick up the threat. These people aren't "normal" and like a snake in the grass people react to them instantly, perhaps even subconsciously. Self preservation makes people relieved that the NPD attention is on someone else and not them.

Just a thought.

liberty28 (50) 01 Oct 2008 03:12 AM

Beth "you can then use the "we must agree to disagree on this one.""

Oh, Boy that would be like a red rag to a bull in my mothers case. Oh no there is no agreeing to disagree on any subject - its her way or you will be beaten into submission (physically, emotionally and intellectually) until you grovel and declare fervent agreement with her view.

liberty28 (50) 01 Oct 2008 04:19 AM

Achingforlove: "however, is how to deal with/confront a NPD parent about their deplorable behavior without it smashing right back in my own face.

You won't ever get them to admit fault. My mother would say that 'oh I know I was a hard mother', and wave her hand dismissively.

Hard doesn't even begin to describe her treatment of me and my sister. And I pointed that out to her during my last conversation with her. I said 'not to put too finer point on it, you weren't just hard - you were emotionally, physically and mentally sadistic'. And I recalled incidences from childhood.

When I was a kid everyone was terrified of this woman all the time. We never discussed what was going on except in furtive whispers, and certainly never with her. So after this last conversation with my mother I felt so relieved so liberated to have finally told my childhood tormentor how things were from my perspective.

Well if I was ever under the impression that my memory from childhood was faulty or that I had imagined things were worse than they were, or that my basic badness made me see things with a jaundiced eye - they were all dispelled by a stream of 7 of the most putrid, disordered letters I have ever seen. The stream of venom that flowed from her was complete validation of every childhood memory - and then some.

Is she sick? undoubtedly

But what is the positive out of all this? Perspective. I know what went on and I won't be party to the perpetrator of all those crimes, trying to rewrite history. I won't stand by and see other people blamed for the crimes the NPD person did.

They can lie, they can squirm, they can try and confuse, they can intimidate, they can bully and they can do all the mental gymnastics in the world to try and get out of what they did. But in the end, I know what happened and I know what I experienced, and if called to do so - I will testify accordingly.

liberty28 (50) 01 Oct 2008 06:32 AM

passionknitgirl: your story is very hard to read. As a mother, the thought of anything happening to my girl, as happened to you is overwhelming.

To go through such a soul destroying experience is bad enough, to think of how completely alone you have been throughout is withering. You must be very brave and very strong to have taken on so much in this life.

Your mothers reaction was the worst imaginable.

They HAVE to be focus of attention. No ifs, no buts, no argument, no contest. They have to be IT. They are the center around which everything else revolves.

At 21 years of age and gorgeous - you unwittingly did the terrible thing, you took the attention from her - in her mind you deserved harsh punishment for what you did to her. You took the attention!!

The hardest thing about having a NPD mother is accepting that they don't love you, especially when society says "mothers love their kids unconditionally". You just don't hear about that tiny percentage of mothers don't love their kids at all.

And it isn't because you are unlovable, you are just as lovable as the next person. Think of a puppy or a kitten - its universal, they are adorable. No one has to think about why they like them - its totally instinctive. So it is with you, the only problem is that your mother is that tiny fraction or percentage of people in the world who don't get it.

The problem now is that you, like everyone else in the world needs love it but you don't trust it anymore because the first love relationship in your life was such a disaster.

You have been out in the desert there for a long time, love really is everywhere if you pay attention. Stop and look at all those things that give you joy: A flower, things you like to do most in the world, people you like to hang around with, places you like to visit, films you like to see. Just concentrate on all the good things and try and stay away from people who work against you.

Hopefully you will attract good people and will be loved as you should have been from the outset.

liberty28 (50) 01 Oct 2008 06:54 AM

Small Changes : great story!!

I loved the bit about your mother fainting - classic!

her-protector (11) 05 Oct 2008 09:04 PM

My story is very painful to write. My experience is very unusual in that I had to deal with a severely narcissistic mother-in-law. Last year my wife was in a terrible car accident and suffered a brain injury. She's on a long road to recovery and I have been there for her every step of the way. I've been told from everyone, doctors, therapists, family and my wife that I have done everything right for her and have gone above and beyond the call of duty. Throughout this entire situation my only formula was, her first, me last.

I completely poured myself into my wife's recovery, starting with coma stimulation (playing music and holding her hands while I danced at her bedside) to finding the best rehabilitation facilities in Florida. When she was awake and stable enough to go to a rehab hospital, I actually moved into her room with her (this hospital encouraged it.) I wanted to learn everything I could from the doctors and therapists, so once home she could have someone educated enough to help her continue to recover.

Once home, her mother offered to move in to help us. She never was a good mother and did physically abuse my wife and her brother as children, but the 5 years prior to my wife's accident they seemed to get along. I did notice some unusual behavior while my wife was still in the hospital though. My mother-in-law made a few "loud scenes" in the hospital when doctors spoke to me but didn't address her. She also made a few snyde remarks to my mother about how often she came to visit my wife in the hospital and to help support me. I thought it was strange that she was trying to draw so much attention toward herself while her daughter was in a coma, but I chalked it up to just being a stressful situation for everyone.

I agreed to let her move in and this is when my mother-in-law started her plot, her scheme to remove me from my wife's life and to become her legal guardian. She kept trying to spend more and more time with my wife and away from me. She was playing this weird game of keep away. Then one day my wife told me that her mother was telling her that I didn't love her anymore and this was causing emotional distress and confusing her. She made my wife cry on numerous occasions and showed no remorse whatsoever. My wife asked her mother to go back home.

The mother-in-law snapped!

This woman filed for legal guardianship of my wife without my knowledge and without telling the Judge she was married. Then she went and filed an Injunction for Protection against me, accusing me of domestic violence against a disabled person (my wife). Mind you, this was all a lie and completely against my wife's wishes. I couldn't live in my own home and lost my income which comes from my home based business. This woman raided my office and personal documents and allowed her felon son into my home to steal my computer, my wife's jewelry and other electronics for his crack habit.

Soon after, my wife became sick with an infection and went back into the hospital again and I couldn't even see her. During this entire process this woman kept sending her known violent felon son after me thinking it would just make me quit. She used her son like a tool let him do any dirty work that needed to be done. She eventually threw him under the perverbiable bus because he became a liability to her trying to stay my wife's guardian. In the past, I've watched this man cry because he never had the love of his mother and I truly believe he did these bad things for her in order to gain her acceptance.

Not only did this "monsther" underestimate the power of our love, but she underestimated the power of what's right and my family came to my rescue, thank God! I was able to get the restraining order dropped right away, but the legal battle lasted for over 1 year. You see, the law generally does not look at a mother as a bad candidate for guardian and in the state of Florida anyone can petition for or contest a guardianship, hence the 1 year battle. Whenever there was a hearing, she would start crying in court and playing the poor old lady bit. Long story short, this woman took $40,000 of my wife's money including a portion of her auto insurance settlement. Once I was able to discover this, no Judge was going to give in to those crocodile tears. S In the process (while I couldn't she her) she was treating my wife like a child. She was buying her coloring books and making her wear children's pajama's and even making her drink from little sippy cups. She was intentionally trying to make her dependent. ARRGGGGHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On a lighter note, we are happily back home and my wife is working toward voltenteering her time in teaching people how to use computers. Before her accident she was a Mangager of Information Systems. I am her legal guardian now and we are confident that it will be lifted soon.

My wife has enlightened me in regards to specifics of her childhood that she never told me before her accident. Her mother used to beat them daily. She weighed 380 lbs. and would sit on them and punch them in the face. She was neglectful to the entire family and regularly cheated on her husband. She also publicly emasculated her husband at every chance she could. She blamed all of them for nd had many and would sit on them and beat them. She would torture them by placing their hands in an open stove flame in order to get answers she wanted. She even went as far as breaking my wife's arm when she was about 7 years old.

her-protector (11) 05 Oct 2008 09:17 PM

I was in the process of adding / editing the last paragraph above when I accidentally hit the Add Comment button.

I just wanted to add that this woman has abused the sanctity of motherhood her entire life. She has used and abused everyone she has ever come in contact with. I just wanted to close with one of her most famous quotes she used to tell her children after beating them. QUOTE: "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out, and no court in the land will convict me!"

Beth McHugh (13211) 06 Oct 2008 02:55 PM

Hi her-protector, what a lucky woman your wife is to have a person like you on her side. Hopefully now that your MIL's true character is visible to all, your wife and you will grow closer from the incident and finally cut the ties between you and this abusive mother. Thanks for sharing your story. Best wishes, Beth

liberty28 (50) 13 Oct 2008 04:36 AM

her-protector, I hope your wife has a full recovery and is able to show you how grateful she is for all your help.

LittleLori (6) 16 Oct 2008 10:20 AM

My mother is N or so Ive been told for years by my counselor but I didnt want to read any of the stuff she recommended to me....until now. I didnt want to see my mother in a "bad light" or face the fact that she will never love me the way other moms love their children. Last week my mother and I got in a pretty heated discussion over the phone because I started sticking up for myself when it came to some people in the religion I was raised in and the fact that they have done some very wrong things to me. (one man gropped me at work) She emailed me later and said that I had really hurt her feelings talking negatively about her "spiritual" brothers. And that she finds it hard to believe me about it or the fact that my brother molested me as a child because shes sure they would have been caught by now. I was devastated and still am. I dont want to be around her and I dont even know how to go about smoothing this one over but the worst part is I dont want to keep my son away from his grandmother. Shes the only one he has and she is very nice to him while he is over there. What do I do? I can no longer afford my councelor and I feel so alone and overwhelmed by this.

Beth McHugh (13211) 16 Oct 2008 09:50 PM

Hi Lori, it is devastating to not have your mother acknowledge your sexual assaults, but it is even harder to acknowledge to yourself that, if your mother indeed suffers from NPD, that she isn't capable of loving you in the way you need and deserve. One of the ways you can help yourself is to read up on NPD from reputable sources. Knowing exactly what you are dealing with is essential if you are to successfully protect yourself from ongoing harm from your mother. She will have a lesser effect on your son than she will on you as her daughter, but you still need to keep watch on how she interacts with him as some damage can still be done. But as long as he has you to provide a primary source of love he will not experience the pain of having a NPD mother. It is also hard when you don't want to see your mother and yet you want your son to do so, so there will be potential conflict and certainly psychological stress at each meeting. So understanding is the first step, acceptance of reality is the next (and hardest ) step for you to encounter. It can be difficult to do this at least intially without the aid of a counselor but try to remember what your counselor had told you in the past about how to deal with your mother and go from there. Hope this helps, best wishes, Beth

echo46 (5) 18 Oct 2008 11:49 AM

Hi everyone, thanks everyone, reading about your experiences helped me a lot in admitting my NPD mother will never change and in my long effort to detach myself from her, since I am 41 now and she is 80 and a true monster. Amazing how much our experiences as children of NPD mothers are similar! I felt bad about myself all my life, suffered chronic depression, fought to stay out of depression, and everytime visited her - guess what? - got back into depression. I have recently come to the decision that I should completely separate myself from her and my coward father. Unfortunately, I also find myself in a situation best resolved by asking for the money they do have, do not use or need, and have long-promised me. Please help me with an answer to this:Is there any successful way of getting money out of this NPD mother or am I just setting myself up for one last farewell disappointment? I am already very grateful to you Beth and to all my brothers and sisters-in-suffering and I wish you all the strength and courage to break from the evil prisons into which we were tricked and forced.

Beth McHugh (13211) 18 Oct 2008 02:31 PM

Hi echo, it's great that you have clearly identified that contact with mother equals depression for you. It is also important for you to realize that the reason you have felt bad about yourself all your life are to do with the messages you absorbed as a child from your parents. But that doesn't mean that these messages were true! Here is an area for you to work on in the future -- looking at the false beliefs you still carry about yourself which originate from early messages and examining whether or not there is any basis in fact concerning them. As to extracting money out of your mother, well, you can try, but you would need to be prepared as to how you were going to approach the issue and most importantly, how you would deal with possible rejection. Best wishes, Beth

getitat61 (42) 19 Oct 2008 09:39 AM

Hi everyone - I can't tell you what a relief it is to finally understand my 85 year old mother - she is a narcissist!!! I am 61 and only realized the extent of her behavior when I entered therapy 6 months ago.....about a month ago I started to explore Borderline Personality Disorder (based on a passing comment from my therapist regarding her behavior since she said she could not be sure since she does not know her) and stummbled on Narcissistic behavior - BINGO! I am an only child/daughter and it has been a living hell - especially since her husband died 1 year ago. I too (like many of you) tried to do the right thing especially in her old age - but she is relentless She claims she wants to stay in her house until the day she dies but the reality is she wants to live me (she says she will NEVER go to AL or nursing home) and has been on a campaign to accomplish that goal for the past year - including calling the police when I didn't return one of her frantic calls immediately!

After yet another "health crisis" (her doctor has told her she needs depression medication and therapy) I am finally able to draw the boundry that says if you want me in your life you will need to be an assisted living facility. My husband of 40 years no too understand the extent of her mental illness and it's long reaching effects on me and has taken over all communication with her until she is in assisted living. We both agree that we want her to be taken care of but I can no longer be part of the drama and emotional roller coaster. She says she will go but if history is an indicator of the future she will lead us down the path of all the steps of going and at the 11th hour back out. My husband has told her she needs to call the realtors and list her house if she is sincere (she was a realtor so she knows the process) - she is capable but has chosen NOT to do it so far.

At my therapist's suggestion I am currently staying in a home we have in FL to try to cope with all that has happened for my entire life........I felt all the terrible things I have been told - I am selfish, cold, bad, uncaring....the list and assaults go on and on. I have lots of family and friends who understand (I found an article on The Characteristics of a Narcissistic Mother and I gave it to those in my life that are important to me and they all said I could have written it!!) and are supporting in my hope to get my mother taken care of ......just not by me.

Thank you again for this wonderful site....for the first time in my life I don't think I am crazy or ALONE!

Beth McHugh (13211) 19 Oct 2008 01:46 PM

Hi getitat61, it is wonderful news that you have finally discovered what has been driving your mother's behavior all these years and great that you have been setting boundaries that she must adhere to. Yes, she will give you the run around getting her into the home, and even when she is there, she will still try to manipulate from a distance, because there really is no such thing as distance for a narcissist until you successfully detach yourself from her emotionally. This involves alternating phases of anger and grief as you go through the acceptable process of what it means to have a narcissistic mother. I wish you well in your journey! Best wishes, Beth

sc62049 (51) 22 Oct 2008 03:26 PM

Hi Beth, Its been awhile since you heard from me. I noticed a change in my personality. I used to do a lot of things for her because she needs the help. I know how a N. person is, but some where I believed that she would show a little love. I realize that there is no exception to their rule. No means No. She will cut off her hand before she would give in.My son gave me a appreciation party in her building. She pretended that she was sick. During a thirty minutes break some people went to visit her because said that she was upstairs pretending. They said grandma jumped out of the chair and hug my brother new girlfriend, talked about the olden days and laughing up a storm. My son walked in her house and told every that the program is going to start again in 10 minuter. My son said that she gave him a strange look then got mad. Someone who is very close to my grandma got her to come 10 minute to a 4hours event. She came there looking like she drink a bottle vinegar. A week later NOW, she sitting at home feeling depressed because she feels that people are talking and they are not listening to her. When people call to ask her how was the event she talks like she was there.

sc62049 (51) 22 Oct 2008 03:34 PM

i PUSH THE WRONG BUTTON Will return later, got company.

sc62049 (51) 22 Oct 2008 09:31 PM

I'm back. LAST WEEK, When I can from the doctor office, I was real sick. Grandma called and I told her that my chest hurts and I feel faint. She got a rush and started talking about all her problems. Each time I had to stop her. She went to one thing to another. I hung up the telephone. When I meet her face to face. I Said," Sorry I hung up on you but I felt that you didn't care about my health. She looked at me with a straight face.

She will walk in her own mess before she will make you feel good about yourself. This week I'm going into the hospital. I refused to let her take me though her drama which is HAVING ALL THE ATTENTION FOCUS ON HER.. I DECIDED NOT ANSWER THE PHONE because the scenic never change. She will make herself sick----sick for attention. I just needed to vent.

Beth McHugh (13211) 22 Oct 2008 10:55 PM

Hi sc62049, vent away! It does sound like you are putting up some healthy boundaries to mimimize the harm caused by your grandma. So that is great. Best wishes, Beth

modernsky (5) 30 Oct 2008 05:10 AM

I have been dealing with a mother with traits of NPD for years. It was just within the last 6 months that my counselor labeled her as narcissistic and I have begun to have a deeper understanding of her and our relationship. Sometimes I want to cut off the relationship completely and have even had thoughts (gulp) that I will be relieved when she passes and I won't have to deal with her anymore--not thoughts and feelings that I am proud of, but I have to admit they're within me. I think the difference between my mother and a full-fledged NPD person is that I can see underneath her bravado a really deep self-loathing. That being said, she does display many of the symptoms of NPD--she only sees life in terms of herself and expects others to do the same, she gets infuriated if she does not get her way, she has little empathy for others, she is strongly opinionated and puts down people who do not live, think, feel the way she does. Needless to say, as her daughter this has been a defining relationship of my life and a great source of anger and pain. I have never felt accepted by her or truly seen. As an adult, I have moved far away from her and kept my distance as best I can. Visiting her is an exhausting experience and one that can take weeks to recover from. My main problem now is that I am pregnant and she feels she has in in-road into my life. She is constantly giving me her opinions on how I should raise the child and making it known that she is the most important person in this situation. My husband and I recently asked her to wait several days before coming out to visit after the baby is born because we want time together, just the three of us, before we let the world in. She had an absolute fit. She accused us of starting a war and verbally abused and berated both of us. When I spoke of boundaries, she became very agitated and angry. At the end of the conversation, she ended our relationship and said she would never come see her grandchild. With all the other emotions this brought up, I must admit that relief was among them. Since then she has called and apologized for her outburst, but she is still angry and she called tonight and started in on me again--I don't call her enough, I don't treat her right,etc. I am upset with myself because tonight I really got hooked in to her diatribe and ended up raising my voice, defending myself and venting my unhappiness about this relationship. I feel bad because I have found that if I maintain my cool and distance, I feel better and the emotional turmoil ends up landing back on her. Tonight, I just blew it. I am 34 weeks pregnant and quite frankly, I just don't need this in my life right now. Whenever I let my emotions get the best of me with her, it does little or nothing to resolve anything. What I really want is for her to BACK OFF!! Does this sound like a case of NPD? Even a mild one? Any suggestions for not getting hooked into her demanding world? Thanks for this space--I feel better just getting this off my chest.

Beth McHugh (13211) 01 Nov 2008 04:41 PM

Hi Modernsky, you are completely within your rights to want to spend time with your husband and new baby -- just a special time for you three to bond. As a new grandmother, your mother would naturally want to see the new baby, yet a mature person can hold out and see the other side of the coin. Of course, if you adored your mother you might even want her at the birth! You certainly don't need this stress at this time, yet after the baby comes you will be tired so it is important to have a plan as to how you will deal with your mother in the coming weeks and months. Can your husband help you out in speaking to her? You are correct in seeing your mother has a deep self-loathing, all narcissists do, yet they must keep that out of their consciousness because it is too painful, obviously, for them to look at. Thus when you set boundaries, your mother will become enraged because her world is, temporarily at least, out of her control. This is unbearable. At some point you will have to deal with your relationship with your mother and detach from her emotionally. This involves a process of grieving and can take quite a while. Perhaps being 34 weeks pregnant is not the time to do it. You need to rest and prepare for the birth. If you would like to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com when you are feeling like you have the head space to work on the issue, we could go from there. Best wishes for the birth! Beth

sc62049 (51) 01 Nov 2008 05:19 PM

Hi Beth

chienbizarre (15) 16 Nov 2008 05:58 AM

Hello, I've just run into this article. Hi Beth, perhaps I could seek your advice?

I've just discovered that I have a Narcissistic mother recently. I grew up with her alone, no siblings nor relatives, my parents are divorced. It has been exactly how you would explain the relationship between a narcissistic mother and a child, so I'll spare the details. It was at times like hell. I was a talented and capable child, outgoing and social. But in high school I developed some sort of sociophobia/agoraphobia. I have a fear of going outside. It includes from going shopping to getting jobs, or even getting mail. It was the worst in university and i could not go to classes. I've gone to numerous counselors and psychiatrists.

Now I'm 30, and though i don't waste time in regretting what's already happened, I see that I missed many opportunities and chances, at times prevented manipulatively and directly by my mother. Now, what I have been struggling with for what seems like eternity is my phobia. My personality itself is the complete opposite and I'm one of the most outgoing and social person. I live abroad away from mother normally, and have friends all over the world. They would never imagine what kind of problem I have. But everyday, I suffer from this vague fear about going outside, and at times after hours of debating I step out of the front door, or some days end up staying indoors. I get into a self-hating mood and procrastinate forever. But at the same time I am dying to go out, be free and GET THINGS DONE than anything. It torments me because I feel that this quality is blocking my future, and most of all, it contradicts my free will. Yet I just cannot get rid of this problem in anyway. I understand that this was the result of the abnormal environment I was put in by my mother.

Do you perhaps have a suggestion to how I can manage and overcome this? To find out about this whole thing was a huge turning point in my life. Now I have to work on reconstructing my own life. Thank you in advance for anything you can tell me.

Beth McHugh (13211) 16 Nov 2008 02:07 PM

Hi chienbizarre, somehow the control your mother exerted over you made you feel trapped and powerless on some level and has been translated into a fear of leaving the safety of home. Try looking at the parallels between the words (either overt or covert) that your mother instilled in you and your fears of what will happen if you go out. Was there a favorite catchphrase of your mother's that you can link into this phenomena? On some level you are still believing in some fear she has instilled in you. This is assuming there is no other reason for your specific phobia development, as the same phenomenon can arise from postpartum depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, to name just two. Best wishes, Beth

chienbizarre (15) 17 Nov 2008 02:25 AM

Yes, there are numerous different things she has said to me that aided my constructing this fear. It's hard to pinpoint, but one of the things is that she is a professional astrologer. She would say things like I should be careful today for so-and-so reasons and I would be vaguely afraid. Also she did not approve my sense of fashion either (along with other things), and made me embarrassed of going outside without wearing what she picked for me (although I now have a reputation as a unique and stylish).

I know fortunetelling is not necessarily something I should be afraid of, whether I believe it or not, and I know many people appreciate my unique sense of style and personality. Also I now see that I am not as ugly as I believed till 5 years ago, and I am rather considered pretty and very popular among people in general. I've lived in several different countries abroad alone for years and people see me as adventurous and courageous. However, although it's better than becoming vain, I just cannot get rid of the idea that I'm unattractive, boring, an incapable and dependent baby. I KNOW what I experienced growing up is not valid at all anymore, but although i understand in my head how absurd it is, I seem not to be able to untangle myself from it. With this, despite all the positive experience I have as an adult, I have succeeded in building nothing useful to my own life.

I only have a problem with "going out of the house", Once I am outside I'm completely fine. I hope that if I keep having positive experience the fear will someday be reduced, but it has not shown improvement for many years. I wonder if there is a "trick" to switching the way I feel? I know it's a sensitive thing, and not like everyone has the same answer. But perhaps there are examples to how people overcome these things that I might be able to learn from?

Thank you so much for your reply, Beth. right now I'm looking for any hints that may pull me out of this rut. I can't let this destroy my life. I have to get my life straight.

Beth McHugh (13211) 17 Nov 2008 01:15 PM

Hi chienbizarre, if you are not having difficulties once you actually leave the house then you are at least not experiencing agoraphobic difficulties. I would encourage you to start a journal and write about the feelings you have when thinking of leaving the house and see where that leads you. There is no "trick" to getting over these types of things, simply watching your thoughts and examining your beliefs will get you off to a start. You will find that there is a belief that is causing you to have these feelings. Once you discover what that is you will be in a better position to break this pattern you are in. Best wishes, Beth

chienbizarre (15) 17 Nov 2008 07:35 PM

I see, thank you very much for your advice. I used to have agoraphobic fears, but I've worked really hard to recover to this point. I have a hard time leaving the house, and perceiving myself as how I really am and have more confidence.

I will try the journal. I write regularly, but I've never done so watching my problem closely. I hope I will come in terms with this and end the pain some day.

Thank you again! :)

Beth McHugh (13211) 18 Nov 2008 12:43 AM

Try the journaling, you will be amazed at the insights you come up with over time. Good luck! Beth

TraceyWeb (5) 21 Nov 2008 08:20 PM

Hi, I found this article and have been reading through the blog entries for hours! I'm amazed at how many children of narcissistic mothers there are out there! I, too, am a survivor of maternal narcissism. Actually, both my parents are narcissists. They married very young (my mom was pregnant with me at 16), and they stayed married for 35 incredibly miserable years. I am 42 years old, and I have one sister who's a few years younger than me. It is only in the last couple/few years that I've become familiar with narcissism and it has been quite a journey since. I was physically abused by my father from quite a young age, and my mother stood by and never did a thing about it. Of course, I always felt sorry for her because she was married to him, never really fully understanding what a horrible thing it was to just stand by and watch your little girl get pounded on by a grown man. Anyways, basically to make a long story short, after many years of marriage, they parted ways and it was only then that you could really see my mother for what she was worth. My father took both me and my sister to court to see our kids (when we weren't even withholding them from him) ; he just wanted a legal document saying that he had the power. That blew up in his face, as the judge saw through it. It was a victory, yet so terribly sad at the same time. Anyways, I'm getting off topic again. Well, slowly, in the time since they (my parents) split up, my mother is so openly, visibly a narcissist it's frightening. She always was, but it was so hidden behind my father's rage that you couldn't recognize it. 6 years ago I had to cut my father out of my life. I just couldn't take it anymore. They've never spoken again since their split. She spent my entire life belittling me and trying to compete with me. I never really understood it at the time, but I do as an adult. She was only 16 years older than me, and it was like she wanted to deprive me of all the things that she'd never gotten to do. Both her and my father worked overtime at making me feel fat and ugly. If I had a pimple, they'd have a hey-day. I was the brunt of all the jokes. I couldn't even possibly even touch upon the evils that I've faced off, so I won't try. I haven't spoken to my mother in almost a year. It started because she lied to my sister and I about a trip she took with her "new" family. And it was like the floodgates had opened. Because everything just all of a sudden made sense. Her goal in life is to protect herself, and it doesn't matter who'll get hurt as long as her needs are fulfilled. Both my sister and I have spent a lot of time reading up about narcissism and gaslighting and it has been so helpful to be able to see that it isn't us, it's her, or rather "them" (meaning my mom and my dad). Early in our lives, my sister was the golden child and I was the scapegoat, and then that all turned, and I was golden and she was the scapegoat. All very, very confusing. Anyways, all I can say is that I went through this period of mourning. Mourning is the only word I can think of to describe it. Then acceptance. I will never change her and I have stopped trying. I'm 42 years old and I'm not wasting anymore of my life beating myself up over the fact that I will never measure up. Neither will my sister, and through this horrible experience has come one really good, pure thing. My sister and I have become very close and honest, and we have bonded in a strong way. We have each other and I'm grateful for that. I'm happiest having no contact with either one of my parents. I feel free and happy. I know I'll probably never speak to my father again. My mother, I'm not so sure. Right now I'm very peaceful not dealing with her, but I'm not afraid anymore, because she's sick. BUT, and this is a big BUT.....I will never let them off the hook for what they've done to me; the years of my life they've stolen from me. I've accepted what's done, but it's up to me now to look after and protect my own happiness. I have this protective circle around me that is iron-clad. I won't be a victim at their hands ever again. Tracey PS - Beth, I think it's wonderful that you put so much time and effort into responding to the people who post to this site. It's very generous and caring of you. I can only speak for myself, but when you've been surrounded by selfishness your whole life, someone like you is a breath of fresh air. Thanks so much for caring about people like myself. 

Beth McHugh (13211) 22 Nov 2008 03:23 PM

Hi Tracy, despite all you have gone through, it sounds like you are making headway in your progress to protect yourself from the harm your parents have caused you. There is not a high percentage of narcissistic parents, but when they are your parents, they can cause untold problems, often into succeeding generations until someone (like yourself) says enough is enough. Congratulations on your journey so far and I hope you will continue to move forward and find even greater peace. Thanks for your nice comments, too. It's always good to get appreciate feedback and to feel that you have made a difference in someone's life. Best wishes, Beth

headintheclouds (10) 26 Nov 2008 01:57 PM

Hi. I am really worried that I may be a narcissist. I think my mother may be a narcissist. I have always had a really difficult reltionship with her and never really known why. Our relationship has always felt like a mystery to me. I knew something was wrong but I wasn't sure what.. I knew I wanted to be closer to her. I have gone through my adult life (i'm 30) feeling worthless, lonely and lost. I have no real sense of who I am. I was definately the scapegoat and my younger sister the golden child. My step father verbally and physically abused me as a teenager and my mother did nothing. I mainly live in my head... which is often full of fantisies of how wonderful I could be and my life could be when the opposite is true. I feel miserable, I have never really achieved anything.. I never finish anything. I have never let anyone into my heart and I feel isolated. At work I sometimes, perhaps intentionally, choose people who I dont like and am always sniping at the and finding fault whilst I get along fine with everyone else. For a while I thought I maybe had ADD as I find it really difficult to focus on anything and am constantly dreaming. Do you think I could be a narcissist? Can a narcissist be healed? I dont belive my mother is evil, maybe very sick. I dont even think she realised what she was doing most of the time - even though it is clear she wanted to crush my spirit. I know she feels guitly about something but she says she cant change what happened and I think she belives that since I'm now and adult it is half my responsibility to mend our relationship. Until recently I felt it was half my responsibility.. maybe this is why I feel so much guilt all the time?

Beth McHugh (13211) 28 Nov 2008 02:37 PM

Hi headintheclouds, it is not uncommon for adult children of narcissists to question whether they are narcissists themselves. They recognize certain behaviors in their parent and when they see selfish behaviors of their own, they ask "Am I a narcissist too?" The answer is almost invariably "no". A narcissist has little ability to objectively look at their own behavior for several reasons, therefore they never question their own motives and actions. For you to be questioning the possibility of your own narcissism suggests to me that you are not a narcissist. You are likely oversensitized to selfish behaviors because of your mother and worry when you see it in yourself. Despite the problems you may experience due to your upbringing, rest assured that narcissism is not one of them! You feel guilt a lot of the time because narcissists are very skilled at imparting guilt onto others, because they cannot tolerate being imperfect. Best wishes, Beth

headintheclouds (10) 29 Nov 2008 05:13 AM

Thankyou for responding Beth. It is a relief to hear. I am not sure if my mother is a narcissist, since she has just suggested that we go to counselling together. She definately resented me as a child and a teenager - without ever saying so directly and she never wanted to be close to me but now she says she does I know that she does feel bad about my upbringing. Though she does fit the description of a narcissist, perhaps she was just plain resentful!

Beth McHugh (13211) 30 Nov 2008 04:07 PM

Hi Headintheclouds, it does sound more hopeful in terms of NPD if your mother is instigating counseling. You might find out unknown things from her past that have caused her to act the way she did. I hope things work out well for you both. Best wishes, Beth.

pumba (6) 01 Dec 2008 02:36 PM

I came upon this site while trying to find a few books to help me out. I have been reading ever since. My psychiatrist labeled my mother a "Narcissistic Teenager" many years ago. We go in and out of fights/not talking, and now happens to be one of the "not talking" phases. The unfortunate thing in this whole situation is my father. He is held prisoner by her. Why? He had just given up. He is 78 and has said he hopes he doesn't make it 79. He said he has no reason to even get up in the morning. He and my mother married after my mother's first marriage. They are 13 years apart in age. My father worked long hours and therefore was able to get away from her until his retirement in 1994. The past 14 years have been hell for him. He has epilepsy and does not drive so the only way to get out is for her to drive. They have talked about divorce , but I know it will never happen, he feels it is just too late in the game.

My mother started in therapy when I was still in grade school. I went with her to each and every appointment and sat in the waiting room. I then heard her entire conversation with the psychiatrist on the way home. I didn't know any better...but still thought it was weird. At that point in my life...all I knew was just to keep her happy. Stay home on Friday nights, stay home on New Years Eve. Be a daughter and also a husband since my dad was working and I was an only child. When I was 16, I went to Weight Watchers with my mom...and that was the beginning of my eating disorder. Compulsive overeating. I ended up at OA then as an outpatient at a nearby hospital for eating disorders.

I then went to college and finally saw that I had feelings of my own. Of course my mother didn't like that. We fought constantly. Mostly just running in circles. I however was finally out of the triangle connecting her and my father and starting to feel my own feelings. I continued therapy in college through the services at school. I went an entire summer not speaking to her because she didn't like my boyfriend because he " didn't look her in the eye" . I am so glad I asserted my independence.

After college my eating disorder went into not eating at all....after a guy and I split up. I was so nauseous all the time. I wanted to eat...just couldn't. That led to me finding a psychiatrist who put me on meds. He is the one who termed my mother as a Narcissistic Teenager and helped me identify all that had happened in my life.

We ended up at a point where I said I would not continue anything unless we got counseling together...and I even paid for it. I was so interesting to see how she is with a psychiatrist. She tells selective things. I had to bring up the things of importance. The therapist suggested that she see him by herself and she said no. Each and every session ended wit him saying that SHE needed to work on something.... But she refused to believe only she needed to work on things. A few years later we were at a different therapist who really seemed like she had no idea what to do with her. The sessions were great for me....but again, I believe a narcissist runs in circles so that is all it was.. A running in circles that cost money.

This latest bout is because she called me a liar. I am sure many people can identify with the fact that a narcissist cannot handle the truth (I always feel like Jack Nicholson in the movie "A Few Good Men when I say that) I never lied and if I did it was because I didn't want her to get mad at me and not talk to me. Well this time she ( as always) thinks she is holding the upper hand. I started calling my dad each Tuesday .... When she was out bowling. He could not call me and have her find out. So he would ring me twice and I would call him back. We had wonderful conversations, sad, but truthful. Then she found out by caller ID that I had been talking to him. She reamed him out and he lied to her to shut her up. So now I can only talk to him when he calls me. He then will call another phone number after he hangs up with me in case she hits redial and would see that it was me.

I have asked my father to come and live with me. He says he appreciates it.... But I think he doesn't want to be an imposition to my husband and m son. He has many ,many dr appointments in the surrounding area where he lives now. I would just like to have some quality time with him before it is his time to go. We asked if we could pick him up to come to our house for Thanksgiving and he said he would love to but just would have to put up with so much abuse from her when he got home. My father is a retired Marine and was a 3 stripe Buck Sergeant Machine Gunner on the front lines of the Korean War. He then managed 400 employees . He is not a spineless man....but it just goes to show how crippling a narcissist can and will be to anybody and everybody.

I mostly feel sorry for my mother. Actually it moves from anger towards her, to feeling sorry for her to then feeling apathetic. In his latest bout I have given her 2 chances to see my son and both times she is a cold fish to me. The latest being when I invited her and my father to come see my son here at my house. She did not say a word to me. Surprising? No. ... but I did it to see my dad.... And I think it was the wrong decision to have her in my house. I felt like a piece of dirt when she left here. And how dare I let her make me feel that way in my own house. Even after all of my therapy , all of the analyzing ....and trying to understand it ...there are still times when you want to act normal... and you try to do something a normal person would to the narcissistic .... And that doesn't work.

Beth, I thank you for this site. You have given so many so much. I thank each of you for submitting. One of the first things I learned was that "feeling that you are not alone" helps so much. We may all need a reminder of things. We all need to vent and fee acknowledged. If you are dealing with a narcissist, you are NOT alone.... And I tell you ...Please....Do what is best for you...not for the narcissist.

Shezherfavorite (5) 01 Dec 2008 08:40 PM

I am glad to have found this site, and read the articles. I found many many things in the stories above that reminded me of my life with my mother and my husband. It felt like love to me, so I ended up married to a man who was just like my narcissist Mother! They adored each other! Figure THAT out. Husband is deceased, oddly, sadlly missed for the all grief he gave me when he was alive. Mother is aging, and just wrote me out of her will (which I don't really care about) because I finally told her I was tired of her crap. Final straw was constantly carping over my husband's funeral- she wouldn't have planned it the way it was. When I told her, with my heart breaking, how much this was hurting me, she said, "I am entitled to my opinion." Not sorry that she hurt my feelings. No. Entitled to her opinion. Something wrong there.

Spent years wondering why my husband didn't love me. Now, it is so clear. Gotta make the rest of my life count now!

And what I am taking from all this, is.....

jaleeah24 (5) 07 Dec 2008 05:55 PM

hi Beth. My family thought it was me that had a problem with my grandmother. My son gave me a dinner party which was in my grandmother apartment building. At the last minutes grandma decided not to come. Many tried to get her to come downstairs. The more she refused. Since there was going to be entertainment, my son had a thirty minutes break. Some peopple went upstairs to see if grandma was really sick. She gave a show that show that their was nothing wrong with her. Asister in law who share the same ways, was able to get grandma to the entertiment. Everybody was able to see that she really didn't want to be there. she stay for fifteen minutes. The next day all hell broke loose. She was calling everybody every at leST FIFTEEN TIMES A DAY. sAY AT SOME ONE WAS STEALING OUT HER HOUSE. She really got mad when no one would believe her. She really tried to get everybody to worry over her problems. When no one would worry then the problem became bigger. One man broke into her house, then two men, okay three men. When that didn't work she turn on her self. WOW, That was new. Thank you for making me more aware of this behavior. It so sad that they call tic for tacks, love. There a reson why they do things. My grandmother told me that I have change. She right. I have a life, now.

kitty1964 (10) 18 Dec 2008 08:11 AM

Hi everyone, I too am so happy to have found this site. I'm 44, a divorced mum of three teenaged sons, and all my life I have lurched from one disaster to another - alcoholism (now over, thank goodness), anorexia, (under control at the moment), 2 disastrous marriages, rape, depression, suicide attempts.... I could go on, but it's too depressing! I had come to understand that my mother was different, in fact, my very first memory, aged six, is being repulsed by my mother when I went to her for comfort when I was feeling sad. I soon came to understand that I had to hide any negative feelings around her for protection. I soon came to understand as well, that nothing I ever did would ever be good enough. I was always a studious child, working hard, and getting good grades. Oh what a shame it was that I wasn't musical/sporty/good at drama/dancing. When aged 17, I started a sexual relationship with my serious boyfriend, practising safe-sex, she called me a whore and a drunken slut, and said no man would ever want me after that as I was damaged goods. My eldest son is 18, if he acts the way I did, I would be so proud that he was mature enough to act so responsibly towards himself and his partner. Just listening in my head to the words she used to call me; she didn't scream or yell, just that calm, rational tone, she was right, and I was wrong, and always would be. Nobody who loves their children could call them those filthy names. But for such a long time I believed them, after all, she was my mother! Everybody said how wonderful she was, she was so respected and so perfect, there must have been something wrong with me. Light finally started to dawn, when I got my degree in under incredibly difficult conditions at the age of 43 years, and my mother still openly favoured my alcoholic, violent brother. I used to believe that I was wrong, that she did value me, as everyone outside the family used to tell me that she praised me to the skies to outsiders. But now I know it's just part of the problem, she can only see me as a way of making herself look good. The day after she died, I felt as if a mountain had been lifted off my shoulders; I couldn't stop smiling. But now I'm still having to work through the anger and the grief. I've been in therapy for 6 months, and we are only scratching the surface of what that woman has done. It is really interesting to read how others have experienced their father's part in all this. I used to think he was a victim too, but he always put my mother first when he was alive, and is still doing it now. I swing between accepting my mother's N as an illness, and her having been just plain evil. I think she had a difficult childhood herself, but I cannot understand why she woul dhave inflicted such unhappiness on her child(ren)? What is running through my mind is that, yes, I had an unhappy childhood, with a mother who was incapable of showing any affection to her children, but I have changed this with my own family. My sons are bright, balanced, happy and confident in who they are. They also know where they belong, and they know that they will always have me on their side. If I can do it, why couldn't she? Can anyone help? Thanks for listening, Kitty.

writtenout (5) 23 Dec 2008 08:35 PM

Thank you all for speaking the words that I've tried to share with others, only to have them tell me I was wrong. I knew I wasn't crazy! My mother passed away last month and I feel no guilt anymore. She wrote me out of her will two weeks before she passes away, leaving everything to my half brother, who she enabled his whole life. He's now worth $750,000, with no wife or family to support, while my husband and I struggle to pay off a mortgage, put our son through college and save for retirement. Where's the justice? Has anyone ever tried to contest a will or sue an estate based on the fact that one's parent has this disorder? I appreciate any help you can offer. Our family attorney has referred us to an estate attorney who I'll have to tell the whole story too, including the fact that I was sexually abused by my my mother's father when I was 8 and found out two years ago that she knew what he was capable of when she allowed him to sleep in my bed when visited to do some carpentry work. I have a wonderful psychiatrist who has finally been helping me through this nightmare. Thanks again for any information anyone has. Peace to you all. e

ricarceh (20) 26 Dec 2008 02:40 AM

My mother is a narcissist, I was assaulted a few years ago, and it was a very traumatic experience for me, and the next day that I called her, the first thing she said to me, "Yes yes, but have you asked God for forgiveness for your sins?" without even asking if I was okay, with no concern as to my well being or the fact that i did nothing wrong and someone else harmed her child, she instead made me feel like I was sinning when I was the victim in the situation.

ricarceh (20) 26 Dec 2008 02:43 AM

One time I was crying to tears right in front of her eyes, asking her don't you understand how much you hurt me when you act like that, and she just snapped and said you're being too sensitive, what's wrong with you and just walked away without any remorse, she was in fact acting like I was pestering her, when I was right in front of her eyes crying a storm.

ricarceh (20) 26 Dec 2008 02:48 AM

I was in the middle of dealing with the assault case with the police, it took place in another state, and right in the middle of it, right when I needed her the most, she told me that she was gonna leave because she had to get back to work, I said I need you right now I can't do this by myself you have a phd mom, you can just get a job here in a snap, she said you'll be fine, you're strong enough to handle it by yourself in that voice of hers, if someone assaulted and raped my child like what happened to me, I'd stop everything in my life and do everything in my power to help them and be with them every second, she had other things to do and her own things to focus on, she just viewed what happened to me as another one of her multi-tasking chores, a good mother would've stopped everything to help their child, mine didn't, i was raped and assaulted but it was too much of a bother for her

ricarceh (20) 26 Dec 2008 02:52 AM

if you grow up with a narcissistic parent, you repeat those patterns subconsciously throughout your teens and 20s like i did and get involved with narcissitic friends and boyfriends who use you, and since you're so used to making someone else feel like the centre of attention all the time, it fits perfectly until the day it destroys you, and it all goes back to my mother never giving me love as a child, so i grew up with no self confidence and allowed myself to get involved with egotistical narcissists just like her, only it damaged me and i've been raped and assaulted by them and i'm still getting over it day by day even though it's been close to 6 years ago, it still feels like yesterday, the police dismissed my case due to lack of evidence or witnesses, and i feel hopeless like there's no justice in this world

winter1214 (10) 26 Dec 2008 08:50 AM

I'm 29 and I've done a lot of work in therapy since I was 25 trying to separate myself from my narcissistic parents. I knew growing up that someone was really wrong with my family, but I internalized a lot of it thinking it was my fault (which is somewhat narcissistic, but I was a kid!!). My parents also went through a lot of substance abuse which lead me to ACoA (Adult Children of Alcoholics), which has helped me tremendously. Today, I'm in recovery from growing up in a diseased, addicted home. I'm learning to be an adult and take care of myself.

My dad died earlier this year, and while it's been hard to deal with his estate & house & everything he left behind (most of which is in horrible condition, including the house), it's been a relief to not have him in my life anymore. I knew when he was alive that he could never me for who I was & not merely as some sort of extension of him. He couldn't see past his own nose. So to not have him here still not seeing me, is extremely liberating. Because now I can just BE. I'm not his mirror anymore. I'm not attached to him anymore & I don't have to take care of him anymore.

But I am still tring so hard to separate from my mom. While she has many wonderful qualities & has a beautiful soul, she's also been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. She currently has a very heavy prescription painkiller addiction. She's on disability and lies in bed all day. She won't make attempts to take care of herself. My whole life I've taken care of her & I'm done. She humiliated me last night at Christmas dinner. I feel like just a joke to my parents. They have no respect for me as a human in my own right. It's all about them. What I'm tired of the most is the emotional incest - meaning they abuse me & cross boundaries emotionally & take advantage of my love for them. I am so done. I'm on a mini-vacation now but after the holidays I am moving out - I already have my own place set up. I actually moved out in October but my mom guilted me into still staying with her. Well, that's done & over with. I'm going to set boundaries & limits with her. She'll have to get over it - this is my life we're talking about. Sorry I blabbed so long!!! Thanks for this site & for giving people a place to vent!! It's good to know I'm not alone. = )

winter1214 (10) 26 Dec 2008 08:59 AM

Also, I meant to say this before - my mom acts like I'm great as long as she's happy but she starts manipulating me & I stand up to her she then sort of demonizes me & acts like I'm the BAD GUY & she's this victim. She never takes responsibility for her actions. Never evaluates her own behavior. She's always the victim. She admitted to me that when she was young & cute she could "hustle" men to get what she wanted & needed but now that she's aging & has lost her looks she is in destitude & isolation. This is a woman who is only a few credits away from a master's degree in criminal justice. She is also pretty much ready to spit nails when she looks at me or when other people in my family look at me & say nice things or think I'm pretty. I just got a degree from a major university & she was great during my graduation party - because it reflected back on her. But when it comes to something that is only mine she gets jealous & doesn't understand why SHE can't have it too. OMG this relationship is sooo toxic. I can't believe I am living with her. I can't believe I haven't taken a job on another continent. Unfortunately I have a great job offer in town and have to stay & settle my dad's estate matters (my parents are divorced). So, this is going to be an exercise in setting boundaries & detaching with love = )

kitty1964 (10) 26 Dec 2008 11:41 AM

Hi Ricarceh and Winter,

So much of what you write is exactly what I am experiencing! Ricarceh, I told my mother about my rape a long time after the event, she brushed it off, and then I heard that she was telling other people about it, making out she was devastated at what had happened, like she was the one hurt by it. WTF??!!! I hope you are beginning to get some healing, the memory of rape never goes away. Mine was twenty years ago, but you're right, it does feel like yesterday.

Winter, congrats on your degree! I smiled to myself when you described how your mother behaved during your grad party, as if she were the reason for it all. And you talking about how she is always the victim, what annoys me is that nothing in their life is ever their fault. She always used to look at me as if I were an unexploded bomb, or a dangerous animal at large, and of course, everything that went wrong in her life, if it wasn't my fault, she would expect me to sort it. She even expected me to cure her cancer, even though she did nothing to help herself.

The day after she died, I couldn't stop smiling. I had to wear shades during her funeral to hide the fact I wasn't crying! Joking aside, even death doesn't take away the damage a N mother does, her legacy is still deep and painful.

I don't know if I will ever feel better myself, all I can do is carry on being a good mum to my kids, at the end of the day, I can end this poison here and now.

Happy New Year everyone.

Kitty.

wordsarenotforhurting (5) 26 Dec 2008 01:01 PM

I don't know where to begin. I am a 54-year-old woman who has just figured out that my mother is a narcissist. It is such a huge breakthrough for me. She has a mental illness and it has a name! I'm not going crazy!!

Two days ago, on Christmas Eve, my sister-in-law was talking about her mother's step-mother. She used the word "sociopath" to describe the step-mother. Being a librarian, I decided to read up on the characteristics of a sociopath. I thought that might be what was wrong with my mother. It didn't describe my mother but I continued to read and google and finally came across an article that described my childhood to a T. Here is the website http://www.geocities.com/zpg1957/narcissists.htm I don't know who Chris is but she is my new BFF.

This article has been enormously cathartic for me. It has provided me with a huge breakthrough. I just cried feeling such a huge sense of relief that my mother actually has a mental health illness and it has a name. This article described my upbringing with my mother to a T. It's sad and wonderful at the same time. I know now that it isn't me. She is a very sick puppy. A huge weight has been lifted off my shoulder. It explains so much-all the meanness, screaming, trouble-making, hurtfulness, sabatoge that was a huge part of my life. About four years ago, I cut off all contact with my parents. My father is a bully-a verbally abusive male. I couldn't take the craziness anymore. Every time I was with them I felt like I needed a therapy session. They didn't make any sense to me. Since then, my siblings (3 brothers; the 4th one died from alcoholism) have been distant with me. I was made to feel like I was a bad daughter, the black sheep. But I knew that for my own mental health, I had to stay away from them. Well, after today, I know I did the right thing. I feel vindicated. I know that I will never be able to be around my parents and that is OK. I won't have regrets when they die. It's a matter of self-survival. I only hope my brothers can survive the misery my parents spew out. My mother has destroyed three marriages. Mine has survived because I love how happy and normal my husband's family is. My mother-in-law was the dream mother I never had. My husband's family made me see that families can be happy and parents can be supportive. They were my role models, my saving grace. If you are still reading this, thank you. Thank you for hearing the small child in me who was treated so shabbily. Thank you for listening to the adult woman who feels like she has been reborn. Thank you for knowing what this hell has been like. It's over and I have survived!!!

getitat61 (42) 27 Dec 2008 08:03 PM

Hi Wordsarenotforhurting - I too came across the Narcissitic Mother article because my therapist mentioned that my mother might have some type of borderline personality disorder - it described my mother to a "T". I gave the article to few close family and friends and they said I could have written it. I highly recommend this article.....it made it all a lot clearer....it is still NOT easy dealing with my 85 year old mother but at least I know I am not crazy!!

Cara-Jo (5) 02 Jan 2009 11:13 AM

I need help! I'm not quite sure how long this comment will be but I will do my best to explain everything so I receive the correct advice. I have been in an on & off relationship for 4 years, he is 39 and says he will always take care of his mom until the day he dies. I recently googled what a narcissist person was after mutual friends of ours pointed that out to me. After reading what I now know what my boyfriend is, I don't know how to deal this. I'm a single mom of 4 boys, whom aren't my boyfriends kids. I was very close to his mother. Tp make a long story short, she hates me along with his brother. She felt threaten by me that I was trying to take him away. During the 2 years of being close with her, she has made comments like, she will either keep us apart or break us up-that her son is perfect-gave me $50 to do a strip dance for him on his birthday-but HE has told her everything about us. Where we're at today, they both bought a family business together, they talk all the time. She has made him the "father" of his 25 year old twin brothers and is the "husband" of her. I'm not invited to functions because of her, he won't mention my name in front of her. We split for 3months & just recently got back together. He is definitely a narcissist person. How do I approach this to him? He will flip. I love him enough to bring this to his attention so it can be identified. His mom has made such demands on him, it's ruined us. They both have good sides to them but the other sides are scary. I don't know what to do, I feel if I don't try to help him, she will never go away & he will always be stuck in her misery. Thank you Cara-Jo

Beth McHugh (13211) 05 Jan 2009 04:04 PM

Hi pumba, I'm glad you found the site useful and dealing with a narcissistic mother is certainly one of life's great challenges since it occupies your entire lifespan and for much of it you do not know what is going on. Boundaries are very important when dealing with narcissists as is always trying o face the truth of the situation. It is sad that your father is trapped in this sitution yet this is his responsibiity not yours. Realising that your mother cannot and will not change and actually accepting that is a hard one. Acceptance of what seems all wrong in a mother is very hard to deal with. Narcissists are very damaged people and have a deep dislike of themselves underneath all hteir behaviors but they will project that dislike onto others. This is why your mother can often make you feel worthless, she is deflecting her own feelings onto you. Hang onto the truth that you are valuable, and set frim boundaries and try not to get caught up in the circular logic of the NPD sufferer. And keep venting! Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 05 Jan 2009 04:07 PM

Hi Shezherfavorite, Your mother's behavior regarding your farher's funeral is typical of NPD behavior where she does not see you, only herself. Having htis knowledge now of what your mother is like will allow you to move on into the future -- and a better one. Good luck!

Beth McHugh (13211) 05 Jan 2009 04:10 PM

Hi jaleeah, thanks for sharing the story of your grandmother, she certainly was trying to manipulate her family on the night of the party. As long as you are aware of these behaviors you will be able to adjust your own behavior accordingly. Try not to take it on personally, as peopl like your grandmother just want attention. She may no have NPD but just need more love and attention and this is her way of getting it. Could that be the case or do you think it is more seriuos than just feeling lonely on her part?

Beth McHugh (13211) 11 Jan 2009 12:28 AM

Hi Cara-Jo, is your partner experiencing any difficulties with his mother, because if he is happy with the status quo, then nothing will change. He has go to want to ange, as no-one can make another person change, we can only change ourselves. If he is truly a narcissist, then he will not react in a positive way to any revelation of yours. Have you asked him how he feels about his relationship with his mother. It sounds a bit like you are on the outer and mother and son are close to each other. I could be reading this wrong though. Best wishes Beth

Lulea (10) 13 Jan 2009 06:25 PM

I am at my wit's end trying to deal with both a narcisstic mother and sister. At the moment I don't earn a lot of money yet and my mother is in relatively good health, so my 'obligations' towards her are minimal but I feel like I am balancing on a see-saw and one day it will tip.

Let me start from the beginning. As a typical narcisstic parent, my mother favoured me over my older sister as soon as I was born. For the first 5 years, she spoiled me rotten, while my sister was cast to the side. But as soon as I started school my mother must've felt 'betrayed' by me and started treating me like dirt. Throughout my childhood I was bullied, belittled or ignored by my mother. My sister, who was now her favourite, would do anything to keep me in my place. When my mother's friends' kids teased me, my sister would join in. If I told my mother about things they'd done (one that comes to mind is one girl smearing dogshit on my leg), she'd completely ignore me, because she didn't want to fall out of favour with her friends.

My childhood was peppered with my mother's absences as she started taking off overseas more and more. When my father was posted to Germany for work for 6 months, my mother did not even wait till he came back before going off herself. She found some illegal immigrant and installed her in our house as babysitter and cook, and then ran off until way after my father came back.

When I became a teenager she was only there about 6 months of the year. During 11th Grade my mother forced my father into a divorced. My father developed depression as a result of the divorce and I was left holding the fort in 12th grade, as my mother ran off overseas and my sister denied all responsibility and ignored us all.

Fast forward ten years and things have gotten a lot better for me. However, both my mother and sister live off welfare. My mother has almost never worked in her life and I know never will because she is just too lazy. My sis in the last 8 years has only held a job for 1 year. They both have a strong sense of entitlement, as if working is only something meant for other people. My mother's way of earning money is wrangling it out of other people, or gambling. I hate how my father and I are expected to always pay more and give them money because we actually work.

My only solution is to hold them at arm's length but I don't know how long I can hold out. My mother is convinced that I will look after her in her old age. How can I NOT do this with a narcisstic mother who thinks she's owed everything in the world? She even says that my partner and I should buy a big house with room for her! I don't feel I owe her anything after what she's done to me and our family. How can I still maintain a semi-decent relationship with her (I can handle having a meal with her about once a month) without all the obligations she tries to push on to me to be responsible for her life?

Beth McHugh (13211) 15 Jan 2009 05:41 PM

Hi Lulea, setting firm boundaries is the key to sanity in dealing with NPDs but even then it is never easy. Having the meal once a month sounds like a good boundary to stick to. No matter what you do she will try to manipulate you if you keep giving in so the thing to try hard to do is not to give in. This comes at a price however, because you run the risk of rejection by her. Therapy would help if you find it hard to deal with down the track. You will need to give up the hope of her changing or of being the mother you deserved. You will also have to make the decision how much , if any, contact you have with her. If you study her ways like a science project you will become familiar with the way she works and that oo may help you to see that it's not you, it's her and therfoe learn to expect the unreasonable behaviors that she will exhibit as part of the condition. Hope this helps, Beht

getitat61 (42) 15 Jan 2009 05:48 PM

Hi Beth - I have a question....I wrote back in October that I had finally come to realize that my 85 yr old mother was a narcissist. It has helped explain many, many things and as you said I have experienced a lot of anger and grief as I continue my journey.

Those emotiions don't surprise me; however, an emotion that does surprise me is the guilt I feel when my mother is not on one of her emotional rants and/or nasty moods but rather is more subdued and reasonable....it makes me feel a little "crazy". Life with her has always been a roller coaster but I guess I hoped that the knowledge of what she is - a narcissist - would help even out the ride with her for me. I do still have many, many negative thoughts as she continues her manipulation (as you predicted) but when she seems vulnerable as demostrated in a recent hospital stay (another manipulation?) the guilt is quick to rear it's ugly head! Is this a "normal" part of the process of coming to terms with the knowledge of what lies at the heart of who she is??? It seems that while the information has opened my eyes it has also made me have some mixed feelings knowing that she is sick...... Is there something I can do differently to keep the guilt at bay while trying to work through all of this?? Mind you, when I am angry I could care less about any of this - any thoughts from you or others about these feeling would be a great interest and help to me!

Beth McHugh (13211) 15 Jan 2009 07:46 PM

Hi Get it at 61, when your mother is genuinely ill it will become difficult becaue on the one hand, you want to be humane and on the other you don't want to be trapped back into it all. This is all normal stuff though, so don't be hard on yourself. Try to establish what you are prepared to do so as to minimize the guilt and yet set those boundaries so that you don't lose yourself. If you feel yourself becoming angry, that is your indicator that it's gone too far. Best wishes, Beth

TheWolfInsideHer (10) 22 Jan 2009 12:23 PM

Hi again, Beth. I've been reading through these stories, and it's truly horrendous the damage these women can inflict on their children. But...so many strong survivors!

My NM is in hospital now after a stroke, and not expected to last the week. I've been to see her but really, as other family members have thankfully pointed out, there's nothing much I can do now (she's not going to regain consciousness, so there is not going to be any big deathbed 'reconciliation'...even if that were possible), so we're just sitting tight and waiting.

What's getting to me is what comes after. I'm anticipating how you cope with this kind of situation with rgeard to bereavement, when people have had a very different view of someone than the one you've had. I don't think I'm going to live up to the usual grieving daughter image, but in a way I've already done my mourning - not even for the loss of the person I once knew through ill health, but for the 'loss' of a relationship I never had. (And it wasn't a relationship. You can't call it a relationship when only one person's needs are ever being considered.)

I'd be interested to know if you have any advice for someone in this kind of awkward situation, Beth, or if anyone else here has experience to share?

Beth McHugh (13211) 22 Jan 2009 03:36 PM

Hi Wolf, this is not an uncommon situation and you can only be true to yourself and not pretend to others that you are distraught. Sounds like you have said goodbye to your mother a long time ago and her actually death is just a formality. However, some extra grief may occur so be prepared for it. It is related to the final reality that you will never get the mother you wanted. If you find you need help down the track, contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

time4me (5) 24 Jan 2009 03:06 PM

Hi Beth, I'm 44 and last June ended my 22 year marriage, since then I have done some serious soul searching. For years I thought I was going crazy, or maybe I'm just a whiner! " It's not really that bad is it ", he would say. So I would tell myself, things could be much worse. I live in a beautiful house, there is money to pay the bills, drive new cars and buy nice things for the kids. It was all a facade. Inside that beautiful house was chaos. "I" took care of the house, the kids, the business he owns, as well, I have my own home based business. I dutifully juggled all the balls, so he could be the big shot. By choice, he was always out, away from our home and kids, trying to impress someone. At home he was a ticking time bomb, set off by the smallest thing. If I attempted to express my unhappy feelings I was told " listen to yourself, no wonder I act the way I do, you're always [CENSORED]in! " Just days ago I was finally able to put a name to the hell my children and I have been living, " Narcissism ". What a whirlwind of emotions the last couple of days have been for me. It started innocently by looking up the definition on the web. I was overwhelmed to read not only the story of my married life, but also my childhood. Sadly, both my mother and husband are Narcissists! I was relieved to see that the torment my children and I have lived with actually has a name, but saddened to see that it's unlikely these people will ever know the depths of the damage they are capable of and have done already. I have read article after article, page after page about this personality disorder, each one representing a huge piece of my life. Now what comes next? One of my greatest fears is that this viscious cycle of abuse will contine into the adult lives my daughter, 18 and son, 16 years old. I have disassociated myself from my mother for almost 2 years now, which has brought me some relief ( but so much guilt ). My husband is another story.... He's trying every trick in the book to make me believe he gets what he's done wrong and he knows he can make me and the kids happy if I give him another chance. ( I don't buy any of it ). Meanwhile treating himself to Mexican vacations and expensive toys because he's so stressed out!! The mind games are exhausting...... My heart goes out to all who have experienced the wrath of a Narcissist.

Beth McHugh (13211) 26 Jan 2009 04:37 PM

Hi Time4e, sounds like you are starting to set those all important boundaries between yourself and your mother. This is great. For continuing peace you will have to do the same with our husband. Try not to worry about your children at this stage, you cannot do everything at once. Reclaiming your life within your marriage is the first step for you. Know that you know what you are dealing with you can observe the pattern of his behavior much more readily. Although he won't change having htis knowledge will help you to come to grips with the situation. Best wishes, Beth

abouttoblow (6) 03 Feb 2009 03:47 PM

Hi Beth:

Both my mother and my sister have NPD. My sister has a daughter who is 13. I will call her X. My daughter is 12. I will call her Y. My mother was constantly telling Granddaughter Y that she should be more like Granddaughter X. (ie: Y is taking a dance class, you should take a dance class. Y is taking piano, you should take piano.) Granddaughter Y is to polite to tell her Grandmother "you are hurting my feelings". About two years ago, I had to tell my mom to knock it off. She might do well to find out what Granddaughter X liked to do, instead of telling her what she should do. I pointed out that if you are constantly telling someone they should be more like someone else, it is easy for them to come to the conclusion that you think they are not good enough the way they are. She stopped being so blatant about it and but continues with the "X you should.....X why don't you..... Never any praise. Like congratulations on your all "A". Your hair looks nice today. I really like that shirt on you.

Anyway, on to my current problem. My sister and I are not close. I can not tolerate her hot and cold and acting like she is better then everyone else. She lies and manipulates and is very greedy. I haven't encouraged a relationship between my daughter and my sister or niece. My sister makes no effort to be an aunt to my daughter, but my mother uses any opportunity to take my daughter to my sister's house. The problem is when my daughter returns home from spending a few hours with the three of them (my mother, my sister, my 13 yr old niece), her cup is 1/2 empty. She came back yesterday thinking her clothes weren't new enough or cute enough, (cleaned out her closet) her bedroom needed updating, she wasn't skinny enough, we needed to go buy her a $250 Brighton Purse (it's not her birthday or anything). This has been an on going problem. We don't seem to have this issue when she goes to her other friend's and families' homes. Therefore, I don't believe my daughter has insecurities issues beyond that of any 12 yr old. I can only imagine that after two hours of hearing how great they are and how they have the coolest, greatest stuff, my daughter feels like poor little orphan Annie. I thinking of telling my sister and/or mother, "No she can't come over, I don't know what you say to her when she is over there but she returns home with (her cup 1/2 empty) low self esteem." "If they would like to come over to my house for a visit that would be great." My sister seldom comes over because she can only talk about her great possessions; it is not very effective for her show and tell. I have talked to my daughter and explained that an expensive purse doesn't change the person you are or make people think more of you. She says she understands. I don't think I should allow her to be manipulated by my mother and sister.

Skyden (5) 03 Feb 2009 09:06 PM

Hi Beth,

I just found this site on NMs and while I think my mom has this issue, there are definite parts of the Narcisstic Mother that she does not have. I would like to get your opinion on this. - She tries to put others down in a back handed way, while making herself look better - She has always made me feel badly about my weight- remarks like "That will make you fat" or " you don't need that" or "That was when (you) had one chin." Needless to say, I am in therapy for an ED. - She can go from 0 to 60 in no time flat- really pissed off at essentially nothing - She is verbally abusive to my father, my brother and I - She seems displeased with me and my choices- nothing is good enough- if I say I am going to nursing school, she would say, why not med school. - She would often tell me my ailment "was nothing" such if I was sick or felt bad - She was physically abusive - She yelled A LOT - She would make jokes and mock my brother and I - My brother and I both seem to have similiar self esteem issues. He moved away 20 years ago and sees her twice a year at best

She does not however... - Say poor me, take care of me - Seem to have a preference for my brother over me- we both got it from her

She is... - She is very independent - She is a hard worker - She has a strong love of her family (her parents, grandparents, etc.)

This entire situation saddens me greatly b.c I cannot imagine the idea of never having had a mother in the classic sense. I know it is possible, but it is almost like at least I had something instead of nothing at all. But I am scared b.c she cares for my children a lot, and loves to be around them. I do not want them poisoned by the same stuff I grew up with.

Can you offer your opinion?

Lulea (10) 08 Feb 2009 06:22 PM

Hi Beth, thanks for your response to my first post. I'm trying hard to let go of the idea of a 'mother' I deserved. It's easy to do that now I'm an adult and I don't need her, but it's very very difficult to let go of all the childhood hurt and trauma she inflicted on me. Whenever I think of my childhood I think of the emotional abuse and the way she totally destroyed my soul. I think of all the lost opportunities I had due to being a shy, withdrawn empty shell of a child. She systematically destroyed me between the ages of about 5 to 16. So although she is no way near as bad now as she used to be, in my dealings with her I bring the past into the present and am influenced by the way she used to be.

I don't know whether the right thing would simply to forgive her in my own mind (since she doesn't have a clue what she has done and would probably deny all wrongdoing). In some ways I don't want to to forgive her because she doesn't deserve forgiveness. She stole a huge chunk of the most important years of my life and it only through my own hardwork that I've learnt to become a 'proper' person again. She thinks all my success is due to her and loves to brag to everyone under the sun about me. I really want to scream at her that everything I've achieved was despite her, not because of her.

My question is: how can I learn to deal with all my childhood grief without actually having to forgive her? Or is forgiveness necessary to move on?

joyfulbride (6) 11 Feb 2009 08:58 PM

Hi Beth

I'm a 34 yo bride to be in 7 weeks' time. I have known for a while that my mother has NPD as it was diagnosed by my therapist last year who had a few sessions with mum as a patient (mum went to my therapist to help me with my problems as a daughter who doesn't love her mother)

..What has drawn me to this blog is the fact that last week my mother had a narcissistic rage episode where she announced that she will not be coming to my wedding - the reasons, apart from the whole "you don't love me, respect me" bs I've been hearing all my life, was triggered by the fact that she invited some people to our wedding without asking me or my fiance. We made it clear to her that she would need to uninvite them, giving her and her partner plenty of reason on the grounds that it is a small and intimate wedding where all guest numbers are confirmed.

Of course, my defiance has made things worse..she has now disowned me (which has happened numerous times in my life).

I am a fairly rational and truth seeking individual with a fiance who has the same values. My fiance actually confronted my mother yesterday for an explanation for her behaivour in hurting him personally, asking her for a personal apology...needless to say she escalated the confrontation to jumping up and down, sobbing, shouting that he doesn't understand how bad a daughter I am etc etc, and went as far as calling the police, my sister, and her partner to go to her rescue.

I am very numb to the whole situation and am seeking help from my therapist to deal with my issues of having given her so much of my personal power over the years (in a way I feel I've created the monster). I am also coming to accept that she will not be coming to my wedding. However, what I would like to seek your advice on is how do I protect my relationship with my sister knowing that she will be copping a lot of abuse from my mother about my and my husband to be's "bad behaivour"...I guess I am OK at losing my mother but don't want to lose my sister to the madness.

PS. Mum's partner has only been with her for 1.5 years (she's been divorced 3 times and he is now husband no 4)- he doesn't seem to have a perspective on what's happening to stop the abuse towards me or my fiance..even to the extent of calling me and my fiance to lecture us on love and respect and that he feels justified in supporting mum's decision to not come to the wedding.

Appreciate your feedback and advice. joyfulbride

Beth McHugh (13211) 16 Feb 2009 04:09 PM

Hi joyfullbride, congratulations on your wedding and also on holding your ground with your mother regarding the guest list. Her behavior is typical NPD and good boundaries are important here. It's also helpful that your fiance can see what is going on. Be aware that you have not created a monster -- your mother needs to take personal responsibility for her behaviors, not you. In regard to your sister, I understand that you don't want to lose her but we cannot control the actions of others and she will make her own mind up about whose "side" she is on. Sure, you can calmly explain the reasons for your wedding guest decision, she may or may not agree. Hopefully she will be able to see that causing all this ruction is not mature behavior. If your sister is copping abuse from your mother than you can offer your support to talk over things with her. Without specifics I can't really give you examples, but it sounds like you have come to grips with the situation as much as you can at the moment and are holding your ground well. Yes, and your mother inviting friends over on what was to be your mother-daughter day was a power play on her part. Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 16 Feb 2009 04:54 PM

Hi Abouttoblow, have you asked our daughter if she wants to continue viisting her cousin and aunt? Do you think she is aware that when she comes back form their place she feels differently than when she visits another friend? Ask her why she thinks she feels less happy after a family visits and why she thinks that is. Also ask her how importatn does she think it is to have new clothes rather than other life alternatives, such as close friends and life talents. Although she is still young she will have some wisdom of her own if you try talking into her about the situation. She may surprise you with a level of maturity you didn't expect!

Beth McHugh (13211) 16 Feb 2009 05:01 PM

Hi Lulea, sometimes some things are too hard to forgive and it puts pressure on a person to "have" to forgive. I know many people won;t agree with me on this, but I will say that to get past this you will need to learn to "accept" what your mother is. There can be no healing withing it. It is very hard to truly accept that your mother cannot and will not ever love you, but that is your task. Learn as much as you can about the disorder to the point where you can almost predict her behavior. You are not a lessor person because she could not love you, embrace the wonderful person that you are despite the childhood deprivation and accept, accept accept. If you have trouble doing is, and it is not easy, you might like to consider therapy to get you through that phase. Letting go of wanting your mothe rto love you is so important to your future freedom. Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 16 Feb 2009 05:06 PM

Hi Skyden, It's hard for me to say if your mother truly has NPD but she does definitely say hurtful things that your impressionable children do not need to hear. It is important to set firm boundaries on what you will and will not tolerate from her, including how she treats your children. You have the power now to say how the relationship will be and if she values the relationship she will respect your wishes. If you get a tantrum and manipulation you will know to increase those boundaries to protect both yourself and your children. Best wishes, Beth

Lovedogs01 (15) 16 Feb 2009 08:30 PM

I have read characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers list from geocities.com, and have looked into other studys, in which fit my experiences with my mother. All though, my mother would never be diagnosed for anything, because there is nothing wrong with her, it's everybody else who is at fault and to blame. I sufferd an abundance of years, of abuse, by the hands of my mother and from the voice that comes out of her mouth. The first time I ever even mentioned of what had to come out about my life, was when I was twenty six years old, after what some would consider to be a horrible and tramatic work accident, where my pubic sympysis was left over lapping from an over 1000 lbs. horse, who had fallen on top of me. Well, that was the best thing that ever happend to me, because all I did was throw myself into work. I worked three jobs right after high school. Had not dreams to marry, cause as I had been told, no one would love me or could ever live with me, many time over by my mother. After this accident, and spending 8 days in the hospital, I could not work anymore and what made it worse is while I was in the hospital, someone called my mother and told her. The last person in the world that I wanted near me when I was down and hurt. She came to where I was, staying in a hotel room because the house I had rented a room in, I could not make it up the stairs to get to my room. I was stuck in a small hotel room, full of stitches from the surgery, afraid to go to sleep because I was still having body reactions from the meds they gave me and all with my beast of a mother, there with me. It was horrible, the whole two days she was there, she did not help me, she picked arguments, and yes, I found myself injured, trying to heal, not knowing what to do because I could not get away from this woman who was fighting with me, arguing, yelling and I had to get her out of there somehow. So I called a girlfriends coworker of mine, who told me just to take more meds. Well, then I called my step father, who was of no help, as usual. All he said was, "You know how your mother is". God help me, I left the pay phone, hobbling back to the hotel room on crutches, found the phone book and called a limo service to take my mother to the airport. I only about one hundred and fifty bucks to my name, but I spent fifty of it, to get her the hell away from me. After she left, I was not supposed to drive, but while looking in the phone book, I found a counseling center and I hobbled out to my car, crutches and all and drove there. I went into the building and told the lady at the counter, I needed to see someone now and I would not take no for an answer.

I walked into that room with a young counselor, who God bless her, she got it all from me. Tears welted and I blurted out twenty six years of what I keeped inside all those years, because I knew if I told someone, my mother would kill me.

So, that was 15 years ago. I've seen counselors throughout the years, attended groups and finally separated myself from my down right evil, Hitler Controlling, completely vindictive, absolutely abusive mother, seven years ago.

Although, it's not been an easy task in the least. You see, I saved my moneys, attended school again and changed my career, seven years ago, when I started my separation from mother dearest, as I call her. Since then, I started my own small business, being self employed with an open public business number. Yep, she calls it, does not ask me how I'm doing, just blurts out, after she gets my step father to talk to me first, "When are you coming to see us!" Mind you, it was not a question, but a demand. I figured out a way to move and not have my address found, so I don't get those horrible, gut wrenching letters anymore, I just have to screen my phone.

I've sent her a certified letter stating that I wish of no more contact from her and why. But that did not matter to her. Now, she just tells family members and anyone who listens to her that I am mentally ill, she loves me and is concerned. This woman is in no way concerned about me. She is pissed because I pulled out of the control and probably misses being able to yell, scream, belittle and abuse someone. You see, I mentioned family counceling once to her, and she went into a rage, yelling, screaming that I was the one who need to attend counceling. It is a hopeless battle.

I was glad to read that others here have been able to find someone good to marry and have children. I have not, I am scared to have children or get married, due to the horrible things my mother would definatly try to do. And I've never felt comfortable trying to explain my mother to a new relationship. She is a Narcissistic mother, as she is brilliant at painting herself pretty to everyone who does not live inside her home. No one would believe me or think something bad about me. All I have to show about her are some of the sent letter that I did start saving, but I was so hurt from many of the past ones, that tore them up and threw them out.

I am 41 yrs. old and still, this horrible abuse, it still controlls my life, because no one will make her stop and there is nothing out there legally, to stop her. She has freedom to turn my nerves inside out and no one can tell me she did not know what she was doing. I've seen her completely turn from yelling, screaming to mrs. nice, in a heartbeat, when someone from the outside would come by. To be a kid and watch that, there is no words for it.

Lovedogs01 (15) 16 Feb 2009 08:41 PM

PS. forgot, I am her only child, thank God for that, cause I would not want any other to endure what I have in this life of mine. My step father, he pulled her off of me once, when she was about to beat the hell out of me with green gallon bucket. But even he, expects me to deal with my mother, because she's my mother, after all these years. This is why it took me so long to separate myself, because I had to do it, alone, with no other family support. It's tough, but I have no regrets, cause at least, I have given myself some little bit of peace.

Beth McHugh (13211) 17 Feb 2009 05:57 PM

Hi Lovesdogs, you need to congratulate yourself from extracting yourself from the clutches of your mother and doing it so successfully. She really has no power over you anymore,only that which you might occasionally still give her. As you have achieved so much, do not now be afraid to go out in the world and make a wonderful life for yourself including getting a partner if that is your wish. Good luck! Beth

Lovedogs01 (15) 18 Feb 2009 08:54 PM

Thank you Beth for the kind words. It's been the hardest challenge in my life, and I've grabbed onto a lot of challenging opportunity's. I have a saying about having a mother like this: one can walk away with courage, live life to their greatest ability, but one thing that is hardest to except--is the fact that these types of mothers--are never able or willing to be accounted for the extremity of pain, suffering, agony and humiliation brought on by their own will to do so. We children of these mothers are always left with no justice or at least a, Sincere--I'm sorry. Now that is frustrating. Also, it's easier to let it all go, if these types of mothers would let us let it go, but they never do. I may live over eleven hours away from my mother dearest, and want to be left alone by her, but I no better, I'm always looking over my shoulder for the next nutty thing she does. She's gotten other people to call me, wrote a letter to one of my best friends--who thank God, did not respond and boy, I bet that really fired my mother up. She just keeps digging, nothing better to do, cause well, she's never worked, pretty much made doing what she does, controlling the people who are in her life, her job.

I really do understand the pain of all who are on this forum and know that everyone in here has to be super strong people who's had to deal with, handled and survived this kind of mother. All I know it this one thing, to survive and keep thriving, one must absolutely, stay away from these mothers, at all cost. It's not worth what she can do to a mind and she certainly does not deserve or should be given the rights to do that to her own children. I took my mothers rights away and it's the best thing that I've ever done, for my very own life, although, I should have done it a lot sooner. Hard to break that kind of control though.

Beth McHugh (13211) 19 Feb 2009 04:28 PM

Lovedogs, you have done so well.Be proud of your yourself. Best wishes, Beth

helenelle (21) 23 Feb 2009 01:34 PM

My thanks to all of you who have added your stories here; I have just drank all of them in, in one sitting, having been amazed to stumble on this site after all these years.... I wanted to offer a slice or two of my own experience which may serve some.

I have been openly dealing with my problems with my mother for years now, long before I knew about N or any internet blogs existed. I just ran out of any other option (that my brain could come up with), so that I was finally left with 'I'll just have to leave... (wot?!)'.

I did first try the rational 'lets start again as adults and see what friendship we might create from now, I'm an adult (and not your dependant/responsibillity anymore) approach. I instinctively felt this would not succeed; it would just give her another opening to 'kill', but felt I had to do this, so that I would not have to live on feeling (even more) guilty that I hadn't tried the one last thing I could think of. #

The catch was that 'if she did not want to then, okay, I would accept her choice, but then I would have to give up now, because I had nothing else left to suggest'... An ultimatum (- boy, I really didn't not know about N!) its true, but not one I wanted to 'play', it was just where I had got to: die (within); live (without).

To keep this shortest, that was that. Until her mother got cancer about a year later. She used leverage of my grandmother wanting to see me before she died, to get me to go to her house (where GM was), and... so I had to choose to do it all again, a couple of years later.

The deeper reason I accepted the bait, and ate it for 2 extra years, was to keep a link open with my sister. I knew I would lose her, along with mother. Slowly, during that intervening time, my relationship with her turned; mother played us off generally, but I have no specific evidence for that time. Only then could I decide to send Mother a polite, but brief note, wishing her well without me.

I got phone calls from her contacts/allies telling me to go back to her: "shes your mother" (oh, I wished...); "its christmas...". I am amazed now how calm I handled those in the earliest days, but, none of those people have contacted me again, after they failed to sway me. That will be 20 years ago later this year, and I have never regretted doing it, though, I have suffered all of the emotional conflicts and double damnations this promises adult children of N parents.

It is not easy, and I don't think there is a 'right way' forward; it really is a free, adult choice you come to make for yourself, in your way, your time, for your situation.

One thing I would say is, don't judge the 'rightness' of your decision by the strength or turmoil of either your feelings (that if you had done the right thing then surely your feelings would be serene now), or, her reaction (this is about you after all...!).

Moments of self doubt, guilt and sadness, loss are actually the starting of your ability to finally, freely let the true and rightful feelings come to the surface, and that I believe is the healthy healing process underway. Confusing, but the unavoidable, natural pathway to healing.

Namaste, Helen.

Like all the advice given here, I too say that each rela

Beth McHugh (13211) 23 Feb 2009 04:03 PM

Thanks for sharing your story, Helenelle

selfresponsible (50) 28 Feb 2009 03:17 PM

Hello, Everybody! This is my first post. I have been reading all these heart rending stories written by truly strong people, and I am proud to be among you. I am 52 years old and have known since I was a very small child that something was very wrong with my mother; I made a commitment to myself then that someday I would escape. I had no choice, though, but to endure her abusiveness until I was old enough to get out of the house. Even though I am sure she is a classic pathological narcissist, she did do some very good and loving things for us as children, and on a consistent basis, all the way up until I reached my mid-teens. It's just that for each good she did, we paid dearly with a cruelty that was easily as affecting, so much so that the balance ended up deep in the negative. I knew if I did not save myself by cutting her off, I would end up a sub-human worm. I have worked long and hard all my life, and have had great victory in healing and self-growth and finding my own voice and power, but I still have a long way to go, and probably always will have work to do on myself concerning this. I divorced "the mother" physically and emotionally by being out of touch most of the time, off and on, from the time my father divorced her when I was 20. I have sometimes gone several years without contact, interspersed with several years of letters or making phone calls on birthdays or holidays. She never contacts me (whew!). I always contact her if I feel ready. She is on her best behavior when I contact her and we do have a pleasant conversation every time, but I know from other times I have visited for short periods that she is the same person she always was, just unable to get away with it because my boundaries and limits are so strong.

Of course, we all could tell long, complicated stories about our lives as ACON's, but the question I am struggling with now is: What do you do about eldercare for a Narcissistic parent? What are YOUR legal rights and obligations?

I have read many books and articles on Narcissistic parents and I have a wonderful therapist I've been seeing for several years, who is also a licensed family therapist and has experience with how elderly parents try to manipulate and use their adult children and how nasty and destructive they can get. She seldom gives advice at all, but she has strongly encouraged me to trust my instincts, protect myself, and tell my mother I refuse to accept her 'power of attorney' that she recently announced in a letter she'd decided to assign me.

I live 1000 miles away from my mother and am financially struggling to fulfill my own responsibilities for my own needs. My life has been an ongoing struggle to give myself some level of comfort and security and financial well being and hope for the future of living a happy healthy life on my terms. I also know that in order to continue to grow and heal and have a life worth living for myself, after all the damage and life-stealing she did to me as a child, (and with which I am still struggling), I will never be able to burden myself with the heavy weight of having to "be there for her". But, of course, I torture myself about it, fascillating between "yes, I can" and "no, I must not". Neither of my other siblings (2 brothers) are able, emotionally or financially, to take responsibility for her, either. They were also abused. In awesome answer to my prayers, she has always had neighbors and community organizations there for her when she has been in need, and she has been in some pretty serious age-related crises in the last decade. I, however, have stayed away, talking to her friends and neighbors, doctors and social workers over the phone, and only going to visit when I knew she was out of the woods and would not be clinging, abusing, and demanding my life-force or emotional health.

I am afraid that if I accept power of attorney for her it will open a flood gate of expectations and demands from her and her community that I will not be able to save myself from, and that I will end up draining my own resources to the point of destroying myself, or crippling myself. I also am very very very reticent about being dragged into her emotional vortex again. And then, of course, I torture myself with "Oh, give her a break. It won't be so bad or so complicated. Just handle it over the phone or fly down there once every two years to sign something." But my self-protector alarm goes off with "Oh, yeah!? At's NEVER been uncomplicated with your mother. SAVE YOURSELF!"

Any insight into what "power of attorney" worst case senarios to consider?

Thank you so very much!

Selfresponsible

Grizelda (241) 28 Feb 2009 10:16 PM

I am so touched and strengthened by your stories, selfresponsible, Helenelle, Lovedogs, and EVERYONE who's shared -- and I'll be grateful FOREVER for the brilliant advice you've given, Beth! (On another of your threads I talked about my situation.) I had the idea that I would send a letter to my N-mom telling her that I need "boundaries" and "limits" because she threw tantrums every time I refused to do whatever she demanded - and I couldn't take it anymore. I told her she could come have dinner at my house once a month (instead of once a week as in the past) and if she wanted me to do something else for, I would write it down, and in 24 hours or less, I'd give her my answer - or my suggestion for an alternative way for whatever it was to get accomplish. She had escalated into asking me to go buy stamps for her, go make copies at Kinkos (when her assisted living place had a copier for everyone to use ! - she didn't want anyone to see what she was copying) - take her to the beauty parlor weekly (so she could have her hair done twice because the AL would only do it once), take her shopping (though the AL took theme very week), take her to all her doctors' appointments (though the AL provided that as part of her rent! some of the other daughters took their moms to doctors visits so she didn't want to be embarrassed by asking) -- oh I could go on all the livelong day.

Here's one example of one of our biggest recent fights -- she bought a colorful "mail bag" she demanded that I hang in my closet to keep her mail (she has most of her mail sent to my house because she doesn't want the AL workers to see what kind of mail she gets!) Anyway, my coats are jammed full with coats and I told her I wanted to use a private shelf in my house to put her mail on instead. She ranted and railed -- I stood firm though it was very difficult - then she cut off communication with me for 6 weeks, opened new bank accounts and closed all the old ones where she'd put me as a joint user (which I'd never wanted in the first place), rented a box at the post office. Well, finally she relented - though she never apologized - and then, I had the new "duty" of checking her post office box at least weekly and saving her mail for her! (another errand - even though I'm homeschooling a disabled child and can't leave him alone - so I've had to drag him along to all errands.)

Also, she's been resentful (well, she hates my guts!) because of what happened 6 years ago: She sent me a letter telling me I had to sell my house and get a larger one so she could move in - then I was to lie to her two longterm care insurance companies (one policy of which she'd only held for 1 year) -- anyway, she said I had to tell them I bathed her and fed her so we could defraud the companies together and get the $3000 payment sent to us (to pay for this new house I was to buy for her and my family - hubby + 2 sons.) She's perfectly healthy btw. Anyhow, I said no -- got the silent treatment for 6 months! and then she finally decided she's talk to me again -- but ever since, the seething resentment is HORRID! She reminds me so much of the little girl in the Exorcist when the devil was in control of her -- my whole family can mimic the venomous sound she makes when she's talking about the many people she despises, me most of all since all these refusals of mine.

Anyway, I sent the letter with the limits, and she wrote back demanding that I return the $10,000 of my stepfather's life insurance proceeds that she got in 1991 -- and my hubby and I both CLEARLY remember that she repeatedly told us it was a gift! (she got $150,000 and my first child was just turned 2 at the time.) Well, my husband wrote her a check for $1000 and wrote on the check that it was the first payment on the $10,000). That was a mistake but she was also claiming she'd given us $20,000 more that we have NO RECOLLECTION OF WHATSOEVER!!! and he was afraid she'd demand more.

He probably shouldn't have done that -- she lied and finagled the insurance company into paying her assisted living by lying to a doctor till the dr. gave her a diagnosis of "dementia" -- yet she's learned how to play contract bridge since this happened and twice a week, attends organized bridge games !!! (another couple chaufferages she expects me to provide.)

Oh dear -- I needed to get some things off my chest and I could go on and on. Well one more and I'll try to stop -- a family reunion in 2005: she called me the night before and said she was taking hot dogs and what would I take? I told her I had a sheet cake mix and my younger (disabled) son and I would make that and take it, which we did. When I got there, she had bought a cake herself and had it already sliced and put on saucers which she was forcing everyone to take, bragging that it was the best strawberry cake ever. We got there later - so everybody already had her cake which she'd pressed on them. She gave me a little smug glare at one point that I will NEVER FORGET to my dying day. What hurts me most is my 12 year old disabled son (he only has one eye and limited vision in the other - he was a micropreemie) had helped make that cake and was proud of it!

Whew I feel better and I'm sorry if I've bored you. I wanted to tell the last poster what I found out: I got this from a post that I googled to find - you could probably find it too: "No, you have to 'legal' obligation towards your mother. A couple of people have mentioned power of attorney: power of attorney gives you the 'authority' to act for someone if you 'choose' to, not normally an affirmative obligation to do so. A 'legal guardianship', on the other hand, does create an obligation to take care of the person, but you don't mention that that's the case. Why does your brother think he has the right to force you to let your mother live with you?"

Grizelda (241) 28 Feb 2009 10:36 PM

Oh mercy I made SO many typos. My son has one eye with limited vision (20/100) and his other eye is fake. And I should have said my CLOSET was packed full with coats so the mailbag would have been a pain to get to everyday. And her longterm policies pay $3000 PER MONTH (which is what she said we could use to pay for the house we'd all share.) She gets that now w/her fake diagnosis of "dementia" even though her memory's fantastic! (better than mine and she's 80 and I'm 53)

And finally the first part of the quote in my last paragraph should have been: "No, you have NO 'legal' obligation..."

selfresponsible (50) 01 Mar 2009 04:26 PM

Grizelda,

Thank you so much for Googling and sharing the informaton concerning the power of attorney. It's a relief to know that I am not legally obligated by it. I am very alarmed about what a guardianship would entail, legally, though. I had heard it could be very problematic. Even if I do accept power of attorney, which I doubt I will, I can breathe easier knowing I'm not signing my life away.

Your stories of your mother are also extremely helpful to me because they are graphic examples of what my mother could do to me even if she is in a living environment where most of her legitimate needs are already met. I guess that just because you've made sure they are safe and provided for in a way that should not require constant sacrifice and errand-running on your part, narcissistic mothers are quite capable of thinking up ways to have their children waiting on them hand and foot, anyway. I say you should tell her "No, Mom! You already have everything you need at the assisted living home. MY life counts for something, too!" Whether she likes it or not, too bad for her! A parent who is mooching off the good nature of their adult child does not HAVE the right to anything and everything exactly as she likes it. That's part of old age and depending on others. When people are children depending on their parents for everything, even in healthy homes, THEY don't get anything they want and exactly as they want it. Their PARENTS call the shots because THEY'RE taking the responsibility and footing the bill. That's the way it SHOULD be! In your mother's case, she doesn't even NEED to depend on you. She's just taking ADVANTAGE of you. I have a 96-year-old friend who said "Don't let your mother think that you are there for her for everything because she will sure take advantage of you if she thinks you're available."

So, anyway, thanks for your response about the power of attorney, and thanks for the colorful and informative horror stories about your "momster".

Selfresponsible

selfresponsible (50) 01 Mar 2009 04:36 PM

Oh, Grizelda, I forgot to say that my brother has not tried to force me to accept my mother living with me. You might be confusing me with another poster. My brother is so supportive of any decision I make about our mother, because he's had problems with her all his life too. In fact, he's the one who called Social Services on her when she was in big trouble and simply would not cooperate with his trying to help. I did say, though, that both my brothers are as unwilling to become enslaved by my mother as I am, and as unwilling to take responsibility for her as I am.

Selfresponsible

Grizelda (241) 02 Mar 2009 02:20 AM

Sorry, selfresponsible! That stuff about the brother was from the quote by the anonymous poster who explained the difference between power of attorney and legal guardianship. I should have removed that part of his/her post but I didn't think to do it -- I just put the whole post there. Somebody's brother had told them if they didn't take their mother (and pick her up at the airport), that he'd call the police on them, even though he'd never asked permission to send her.

helenelle (21) 07 Mar 2009 03:59 AM

A wave hello to everyone.

I came on-board to check for new posts, and saw the InterFlora advert for Mothers Day topping the comments. (at least in UK - sorry, not sure if the US is a different day and/or with different ads).

I actually clicked on it, as I wanted to be certain it wasn't a post-ironic joke, something with a crushing punchline on the inside. Sadly, no.

Since going no contact, I have always tried to keep my head down around this time, to avoid those innocent attempts at conversation with coworkers mostly, based on what I was going to be doing for mothers day. My fear of being shamed (bad daughter), inflaming my anger at ever and always being blamed. And silenced.

For me, M Day was waaaay more stressful than Christmas.

To top it off, every so often, Mothers Day even coincides with my birthday (not this year!), which which always 'taking it just too far...'.

After 19 of these, I had got into my own shrug of the thing, so rather unexpectedly today, having sort of ..tripped up into their ad, I noticed that all their pictures of flowers, and sentiments, had no meaning. I was just an odd anthropologist observing some pagan ritual from a remove. They were just pictures of bunches of flowers (and much better ones elsewhere at that!). Thanks Interflora, I guess.

So time heals then.

My favorite quote: The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. (Elie Wiesel)

I carry a residual level of anxiety though. A fear of normal people. A fear of their one-track outlook; the way they react to anyone who does not produce the pat, correct response. Fear of their project shame. Shame of my own hatred: of having to deal ...every year; so never really free.

So I'm still 'depressed' by the touch of it. Thanks Interflora, I guess.

Radiating solidarity, Helen.

standingintheshadow (5) 10 Mar 2009 11:23 PM

So I have just given birth to my third child in 4 years. I have a 4 year old autistic son, a two year old daughter and a brand new baby girl. I am an only child. My mother lives with my father on the east coast and I live and work out west with my loving husband. We just bough our first home and are well on our way to successful careers and continuing to love and support our children. When I was 16 (maybe earlier), I felt my sails start to drift away from my mother. I was into a social scene that she didn't approve of, but I still got straight A's and maintained a pretty successful social circle. I went to college and finished in 3 years. I was always an overachiever. I dated a guy who was clearly a bi-polar alcoholic, I lived with him after college for 3 years, and then eventually got up the nerve to leave him and move west, looking for a better life, a clear mind and new friends to help move my life forward. I feel that most of my life, I have connected more with my my father than my mother. I think this may be the root of her jealousy. However, our "relationship" has now come to a head. i love her very much but am at my wits end. Two years ago my son was diagnosed with PDD-NOS. My mother was convinced (by anecdotal evidence and Jenny McCarthy) that my son was just celiac or could be "cured" with a GFCF diet. My husband and I, while digging into medial evidence and all we could find that was documented evidence about autism, eventually took a stand against her un-educated opinions. however in Oct of 2007, she and my husband had a conversation that has changed things between she and I and she and he forever. She "coincidentally" met a woman on the plane ride out to CA that was celiac. After arriving at our house, it was all she could talk about. These hokey sites online that would "cure" our son, and she was so confused why my husband and i weren't jumping at the opportunity to read all she was reading and do what all of these (in our minds "desperate") parents were doing for their autistic children. My husband finally stood up to her. He felt she had finally crossed the line with our family. Our son was not a guinea pig, and we deserved the respect to make up our own minds and choose the doctors, therapy, and MEDICAL advice we saw fit. She went home after that trip with a vision of my husband as this "over-analytical" person. My husband, a highly educated man, was insulted and alerted me to his feeling on the morning she was leaving. Brokenhearted and confused, I chose not to confront her. Instead, I followed up a few days later with an email to my husband, my mother AND my father. I let my heart our. About how I have felt like I have been overpressured, judged and talked down at my entire life. Now, in my 30s with an autistic son and a newborn baby (my first daughter), I let her stay in my home freely and she STILL was making me feel like she had a SAY in my life and now my child's life.

I am so at a loss. She is coming again in a month and, although I look forward to seeing her, I am anxious. We flew east to spend a week with her and Dad at Christmas. I left feeling so melancholy. I miss my dad terribly, but sometimes I wish he were able to visit out west independently of my mother instead of the other way around. However, due to their jobs, I see my mom whenever she has the time to come. I am her only child with a very full, tense but exciting life of my own. Although I am a highly educated professional, with a writing degree and very successful in my teaching career, I am struggling for words that will get through to my mother. I have struggled my entire life. And I will again struggle this visit.

I think about this everyday. Although she is over 3000 miles away, she is the biggest stress of my life. I live in a long cast shadow that I fell will follow me until her death someday....and maybe beyond. I don't know what to say anymore to her beyond small talk and funny family gossip from the east coast. We can talk about real things. I find her tactics (when the conversation gets "tough" for her) are one of 3: DENY - "Well, I had nothing to do with that", IGNORE - "Just drop it" or I get silence and crying and walking away, EXCUSE - "Well, that's because of (insert another reason other than personal responsibility here). She attributes her lack of communication skills to not going to college. She has been a cigarette smoker and drinker since she was a teen and yelled at me a lot as a young girl. I lived in fear of her demeanor. While I have no firm recollection of physical abuse, I can vividly recall the mental abuse grow and expand over the years. If asked, I would bet she would deny all of this, and say "Well Dad and I did the best we could."

I have concluded that my mother does not know the meaning of mutual respect. I have worked so hard my whole life to not address stress, tough times/situations, and tension with other in one of the 3 ways my mother does. I must evolve if I am to continue to love, support and care for my own children and family. Living in CA, I have developed a strong sense of empathy for others. I am a better listener with the help of my husband and his everlasting good-natured spirit. But I cannot and may never understand the mind of my undiagnosed narcissistic mother.

Any advice, thoughts, comments or questions are appreciated. I stumbled upon this blog just tonight. I am looking forward to sharing stories and reading the trials and tribulations of other like myself. I feel like I can breathe a bit more in this forum. Thank you for that. :)

Grizelda (241) 10 Mar 2009 11:55 PM

I hope Beth is able to answer your post, standingintheshadow, but even just reading over all her blogs and answers to other people has helped me so much. My problems with my N-mom reared their head again with the birth of my first son - it's like she felt determined to 'take over' and claim at least partial ownership of him. My mother had been overbearing and somewhat physically abusive (she slapped me a lot - it took me years to realize that being slapped as hard as she could manage for mistakes like dropping a glass of milk IS abuse -- I guess I thought you had to have broken bones and end up in hospital) but I'm off subject.

She didn't really bully me from when I left home for good at 17 (to go to college) till my first son (1989) and there have been countless arguments since. If he coughed while she visited, it was something I had done wrong - or hadn't done. I didn't keep him warm enough, didn't take him to the doctor often enough - oh I don't know, always blaming me. She was furious that I wouldn't put him in those hard shoes toddlers wore in the 1950s and she'd NEVER look at a modern book of baby-care - she just *knew* everything somehow, certainly more than stupid me - and I'm an only child who lived with her grandmother till 6 - honestly, my mother with no college would be barking orders at a brain surgeon during the surgery if she could get in there. Oh dear, I'm an extremely poor substitute for Beth!!

Anyway, recently my mom moved to our city and lives in an Assisted Living and I just thought it was bad before, when she made her occasional visit to point out all my maternal failings. Now, not only can I never disagree with her, but as her age and health are bothering her, she's hypochondriac and just lives to dream up frivolous things for me to do - just to maintain her 'power' I guess. Not as much fussing about my boys but more general griping about everything and trying to take my time and suck up my life's energy. It wouldn't be as bad if I didn't have a 16-year-old son who's got several handicaps (he was a 1 lb. 12 oz./792 gram "micropreemie" with low vision, low motor ability - we're still working with buttoning and tying, somewhat garbled speech, just a whole list of issues.) Just as I'm struggling with him, as his friends start driving and getting girlfriends etc. and he's still stuck at home feeling hopeless -- then she decides she'll learn to play bridge (and I'm to take her twice a week), and she needs an extra hair salon appointment (they only do her hair once at AL), and we should get her to church and then pick her up every Sunday and bring her to our house for dinner, --- oh it goes on and on.

She throws tantrums when I say anything other than "Yes, Ma'am" with a salute, even when her junk is just for her FUN and I need the time to do homeschooling and walks (my son would get no exercise at ALL if I didn't do it with him) -- oh I never know how to be concise enough, so I apologize for all the details, but I decided I couldn't go on living in a vice -- with her barked commands and then tantrums if I didn't immediately drop everything and comply -- and on the other side -- I'm so worried about my son and trying to figure out how to help him transition to adulthood with his multitude of challgenges, physical, social, and educational. Sometimes she seems to care about him - but she has this uncanny ability to just not think about him when SHE wants something - and interrupting our work 3 times a week is NOTHING, not when SHE wants something.

Short story has been made waaaaay too long but I sent her a list of "limits" -- 1 dinner w/our family per month -- and one other time, she could ask me for a favor (take her to a bridge game or something). [the AL takes them shopping, to restaurants monthly, has bingo games, takes them to church, etc, there's a reg nurse there 24hrs, all meals, it's really great] Anyway, after my letter, she went ballistic! In 1991 when my stepfather died, she gave us $10,000 of her $150,000 insurance plus her retirement settlement -- and she brought that up and said in a nasty way, "Since you have it so great and I'm over here pinching pennies, you should pay that money back!" Hubby and I both CLEARLY remember it was a gift. She ranted and railed like my asking for limits was the most horrible thing a human can do.

I decided "No Contact." THEN she went to her doctor and I think she even asked for a re-catheterization of her heart and a new stent! I can't know that but the week AFTER he told her he'd redo it, the was playing bridge twice that week. I thought surely she's grandstanding or just asked for the newer drug-eluding kind because she could force me back to being her slave. Well, I didn't go. She hired LPNs to sit with her and hubby handled a few details - and gave his number to doctors/nurses. Now I feel horrible but I swear I think she did this on purpose - as the next step after demanding the "gift" back. I feel like Max von Sydow's character in 7th Seal playing chess with the devil! (well he played with Death) but my nightmare game feels like it's with the devil.

She'll win I guess, after badmouthing, shaming me to everyone in a 100-mile radius (luckily I'm mostly a recluse but sheesh, the first time in my pitiful life I actually try to stand up for myself and she comes up w/a health emergency right after having all her checkups and being fine in December!

Well,I haven't helped you much -- but reading like crazy from Beth, "Anna Valerious" (which has helped me so much!), Kathy Krajco (ditto), Joanna Ashmun ('Now We are 6' and her other essays) -- HAS helped me, and I even think I'll be able to stay on track but I'm terrified now. Terrified that I'll have to face her again since the limits letter, the rejection, and then demand for a money gift to be returned!, and then the damned heart "emergency" -- I think she's going to defeat me, but I'm trying to stand firm, and IF she somehow does win, I swear I'll never act like a little downtrodden kitten around her again. I'm tired of using PRECIOUS energy that my disabled son needs so badly on her whimsical damned hair appointments and bridge games.

And I still have hope for No Contact. If you haven't, please consider reading those ladies blogs, especially Anna Valerious. She's got one on "deathbeds and funerals" - saying you should stand fast if you go NC even then! Everybody's case is different, but if your husband is on your side, and esp. in your case, your mom is so far (ours is in the same town!), you might could pull off clear, stringent limits - and enforce them no matter how much screaming ensued. And if that blew up in your face, like in my case, there's a whole lot of "No Contact" advice in the blogs too. GOOD LUCK! Please keep us updated! And maybe Beth can get back to us -- I hope nothing bad has happened to her -- with all the fire/flooding issues in Oz of late! We love you Beth and we MISS YOU!

Grizelda (241) 11 Mar 2009 12:06 AM

I didn't explain myself very well -- my mother got $150,000 from both my stepfather's insurance and her retirement package -- and she made a HUGE deal about GIVING us $10,000 to help with our new son (just turned 2.) And when I sent her the "limits" letter, the first thing she did was demand the gift back -- disinheriting me from my stepfather completely but so what I guess -- he did leave it all to her. As an aside, my mother had 4 siblings - was angry at 3 of them for not helping her mother as much as she says they should have - so mom forced grandma to disinherit the 3 sibs my mom hated! And grandma did it! Same grandma who watched my mom hit me for nothing -- for being clumsy or something - and she just hung her head down and didn't criticize mom. I actually think that's WHY my mom is an NPD, because HER mum could never say NO to anyone. (I was reading about Peter Sellers, supposedly an NPD, and his mother coddled him as well -- I think that's a far more likely cause than trauma in childhood as Vaknin believes, but I guess two people is not much to go on -- but I've known a handful of playground bullies whose mothers could never discipline so I still think it may be the cause.)

Beth McHugh (13211) 12 Mar 2009 04:34 PM

Hi Standing in the shadows, denial is the key word for narcissists who can never be held accountable for anything as it is too detrimental to their fragile egos. And despite your educational success, you find that you cannot really get though to your mother -- this too is normal. This condition is not logical therefore it doesn't respond to the most beautifully constructed logical arguments, in fact if you present them with one, they will change the subject or sulk depending on their mood. Or more likely attack you with something out of the blue. The way to get round this problem is to accept your mother as she is and then go through the necessary grieving process that accompanied all successful detachments from narcissist mothers. This sounds easy but it can be very difficult and painful. Perseverance is the key plus not buying in to too uch of what your mother says. Again the latter can be difficult too. As I have said in articles on this subject, emotional detachment from an NPD mother can be traumatic but ultimately freeing. Best wishes, Beth

selfresponsible (50) 14 Mar 2009 11:15 AM

Grizelda,

How very very angry it makes me feel to hear the tactics your mother uses against you! Her winning is NOT inevitable! YOU can win. In my opinion, it is a matter of life and death, and your first obligation is to protect your own life (which includes it's quality). I know everyone's spirituality is individual, but I pray a lot for protection and wisdom and courage. I always have found that to be very effective. I believe that a benevolent higher power also recognizes our right to happiness and our protection from terrorists, whether familial or otherwise. You must not assume that she will win! Please, please do not do that. I am SSSOOOO proud of you for setting limits with her. That is AWESOME! And her reaction is typical. Don't let her medical conditions, whether real or contrived, force you into slavehood. She is SURROUNDED by professionals who can do a much more thorough job than you ever could, and from a neutral perspective so she can't push their buttons so effectively as she can yours, since she created those buttons over years of abuse when you were chained to your tormentor as a dependent child. Your SON needs you a lot more than she does, and much more legitimately, and HE IS INNOCENT. She is NOT. And YOU need you.

I have read so many books on how to take care of abusive parents. Most of them put a short part in there about how you don't HAVE to take care of parents who are or were abusive to you, but they quickly move on to the premise of the book - that since you've decided to take care of abusive parents, anyway, here's the way to do it. They always make comments about how it will make you a stronger person and how compassionate and mature you are for doing it. YUCK! Why doesn't SOMEBODY write a book emphasizing that we are NOT obligated to take care of our parents??!! ESPECIALLY abusive ones!!!! Where is THAT book??!! I am convinced it is just as valid as all the books on eldercare, whether of abusive or non-abusive parents.

Selfresponsible

selfresponsible (50) 14 Mar 2009 12:15 PM

Grizelda,

You wrote in your last comment that you had been reading some helpful material. You mentioned the names "Valerious, Krajco, and Ashmun. I looked all around this website and could not find these essays. Where did you find the reading material?

Selfresponsible

Grizelda (241) 14 Mar 2009 06:38 PM

Here are a couple links and I hope they work, Self! I'll come back to answer your post after I post these links and try them to see if they work:

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/

http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/

Grizelda (241) 14 Mar 2009 06:58 PM

Well, you can't click on my links but if you copy and paste them (or just type them in that big box thing at the top of the screen - I have no idea what it's called, lol) they work - at least they did on my computer.

So many pieces have come together for - all due to these brave wonderful people - including Beth! I would never ever EVER had the courage to even think I had the "right" to go No Contact had I not read that very advice, from multiple sources, that sounded so intelligent and professional and objective. Never. So I'll spend the rest of my life feeling grateful about that!

And I wish YOU well, selfresponsible! Isn't it a precious GIFT that people have figured this syndrome, this almost unbearable situation out! My first epiphany was Sam Vaknin's book! It costs a fortune at Amazon ($50!) but I think he's absolutely brilliant and I think the EARLIEST person who really really GOT this and explained it. I will never forget reading that book in 2005 and for the first time, seeing my past for what it was -- abusive. I figured I was just a mess due to the isolation and no daddy or sibs etc etc... It was HER. I think I've even figured out why she was like she is -- HER mother could never say no. Not to her, not to me, not to anyone I don't think. I'm tending to think THAT's where this mess comes from. There were two bullies in my son's preschool and elem. school classes and I got to know both their mothers -- and their mothers could not admit their sons were ever WRONG. I was at a soccer game once and watched one of these mothers WATCH her son push my son down! (My son was 4 and he wasn't hurt at all -- but what was so fascinating was the mother clearly wasn't about to do anything! Had my son done that I'd have been appalled and also very worried about him, not to mention his victim -- when you go around pushing other boys down just because it's fun and you can, one of these days, a kid's gonna get his revenge by beating you up!) I also read about Narcissist Peter Sellers and his mother who was extremely coddling.)

Well, I've digressed -- and I've been kicking myself for "spilling my guts" so much on this board -- it's the only one I've ever posted about this subject, and I really believe, that in the space of two months, I've hit rock bottom and I have a resolution. It's funny that the worst thing I did was write a letter, tell my mother that because of her tantrums, I needed a day to think about all her future requests (oh and limit other visits.) Her furious reactions and medical crisis have backed me into a corner, which I think is what she intended - but perhaps what she didn't intend is that now she's forced me to go "no contact." I'm sure not facing her NOW, when before, of course I would have considered trying the limits since they were MY idea.

I promise not to be so self-centered, well narcissistic (yikes!) myself on this board in the future -- but I'm eternally grateful to you, self, and all the posters here, and especially to Beth and the other bloggers/writers I've mentioned. BTW, Kathy Krajco's blog is:

http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com

Sheesh, I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting all these links -- and I'll be keeping up with you, self, and with everybody -- and not running on and on and on at the mouth in future. I really think the hardest part is behind me -- and the most important part, by far, was just REALIZING what the hell was going on!

Beth McHugh (13211) 15 Mar 2009 05:08 PM

I am in the process of writing a book on dealing with narcissistic parents, hopefully it will be out early next year! Beth

selfresponsible (50) 28 Mar 2009 03:03 PM

Grizelda,

Thank you so much for sharing the websites you put in your posts! I'm sorry I haven't responded sooner. I've been very busy and away from the site for awhile.

Please don't apologize for going on and on. I don't think you're being self-centered at all! Everything you've said has been interesting and valid, and it's all important for you to be able to say and be heard. I think you're doing really well.

Hang in there, have courage and keep believing in YOUR right to your OWN well-being and happiness. I have to remind myself of that every single day, but it's TRUE!

Selfresponsible

Beth McHugh (13211) 29 Mar 2009 04:52 PM

Yes, Grizelda, do not apologize! This forum is for people to share their experience and know that they are not the oly ones going through this painful process. Best wishes, Beth

cbreeze (20) 31 Mar 2009 03:18 PM

I'm an only child who has been struggling with a mother exactly like this for all of my 35 years. I had no answers for her behavior except what she told me, which was her bitterness and anger and mistreatment of me was my fault. Even after visiting a UCLA psychologist (forced to do as a teen because she was convinced I was crazy - he said she had power issues and wasn't being a parent. We stopped going) I had no idea that this is what was wrong with my mother. Thank you so much for this site. I'm crying right now, I never thought I could put a finger on what was going on. I never thought anyone else was going through any of this, yet here is a page full of stories I could have told myself. I've always felt so alone. My family is full of loving, close relationships, and they don't understand what I went through with her, all by myself and 1,800 miles away from any other family. My dad left before I was born, and was never mentioned. I still don't know where he is. I hid all of my pain behind humor, and my friends would joke that Bill Cosby might be my dad. They had no idea that this was my ultimate dream, that there was someone out there that would love me and take me away from all of the garbage I went through on a daily basis. I can't count how many times I was called stupid, how many times she went out of her way to compliment my friends, then stare at me and roll her eyes, smirk, and walk away. I was hit with everything in the house. The lies crippled me. She treats our relationship like a battle to be won in the eyes of family opinion, thinking she's winning because I'm not even aware we're supposed to be in a fight. I just want a Mom. Everyone has one but me. I just want someone to tell me I'm OK just like I am. I just don't want to be on an island, I don't want to be such a loser because it's all my fault. I picked guys who were just like her and I never even realized it until now. Now my ex treats me the same way, everyone really, and my kids have to live that because they have a dad just like my mother. I can't see the keyboard anymore.

My family has always been put on a pedastal because all of my cousins were so much better than me in her eyes. It took me forever to see that they are just people too. I'm still not sure I do. They don't get it. They say, "She's your mother", "You're all she has", "You know how she is, just ignore it", "The Bible says honor your mother", all while believing the literally thousands of lies she's told them about me over the years. She's so fake in front of them. She hugs me (never happened in my life until she followed me across the country a couple of years ago), says hello, offers me help with my kids, is a perfectly normal person. When no one is around except my children, she says NOTHING to me unless she's demanding I fix something in her house. She doesn't speak to 2 of her 3 sisters. It's been most of my life that's been going on. She's never been married (my fault, I'm told), was a teacher for 40 years (poor kids) and never even enjoyed it, and refused to pay for more than a semester of college for me. I graduated from high school at 16, and she wouldn't release her financial information so I could apply for financial aid. She's told the whole family I flunked out. Total lie.

I have no self esteem. I'm ugly, I never get my hair done, my clothes have holes and aren't the right size. I have a heart condition despite enjoying being active, never smoking, not drinking, and not being overweight. I get physically ill when she leaves a voicemail on my phone, which she only addresses to my 13-year-old daughter. She gives me the finger behind my back in front of my children, when I've said nothing at all. My daughter has been put in the awful position of having to defend me in my absence because she's caught grandma telling lies and continuing her smear campaign against mommy. When I had to call 911 to get my ex out of my house after he broke in through the back door while I was pregnant, she went out of her way to call the detective (who had never contacted her, since it had nothing to do with her, and I hadn't said a word to her). She told the detective I lied, that he was at her house the whole time (the officer saw him in his car on the corner waiting for the police to leave). She's given her great nieces and nephews tens of thousands of dollars, but wouldn't loan me $400 for two weeks to fix the furnace in the winter while her only two grandchildren and I froze. And nope, there's no history of me borrowing money from her and not paying it back, I've only borrowed three times, paid back on time each time, and all were over a decade ago. She's now suing them for the money she gave them, and mad at me for not being mad at them. They've done more for my children than she has.

She drinks a lot. She's ... she just sucks. I don't want to be that person that hates their mother. My father abandoned me and I don't even hate him. I don't hate anyone. But it's a struggle not to hate her. I've been struggling for too many years, it's making me too weak. I can't even be happy. I hate myself for thinking I may not cry if I'm blessed enough to outlive her. What kind of evil person thinks that about their own mother?

I'm so sick of crying. No one likes her, but everyone decides I'm being selfish if I try to get some space from her, because I'm her only child. I'm all she has. I can't shoulder it all anymore. I don't have the tools, I don't have the skills to protect myself. I can't keep waking up at 4 thinking of all the things I'd like to say to her. I can't keep crying and worrying my own daughter. I don't know what to do. She makes me feel like such garbage, so worthless - I'm only still here because if I wasn't she may get my children, and I cannot willingly let that happen. I want to be around for better reasons, like I love my life, love myself. I never stand up to anyone because I was raised to "look down and shut up, stupid". When I wanted to go to a sleepover, I was a lesbian. When I was invited to go to Sweden, I was trying to run away. Really? To Sweden?? When I did well in school, I was a cheater. When I didn't, I was stupid.

OK, closing the vent. No one cares anyway. It's awesome that you have this site. Thank you for doing this. I wish I was the type to drink or do drugs, prescription or illegal. This site made me feel a little better though, thank you so much. I hope and pray for everyone dealing with a family situation like this, even though everyone in my family expects me to be eternally grateful and nothing less for having a mother at all. I wish they understood that I really don't.

Grizelda (241) 02 Apr 2009 12:47 AM

I'm thrilled to hear about your book, Beth - and I'll be sure to get it as soon as possible! And thank you and selfresponsible for the reassurance. And to dear CBreeze - please know that many of us here DO CARE and we DO HEAR YOU and we WANT to hear your story and your experience and we wish you all the luck in the world (though I think sometimes we just have to MAKE our own luck.)

There's a passage in Joanna Ashmun's writings (in the "Aftermath" section) that I return to often:

"This stuff is hard to talk about in the first place because it's weird, shameful, and horrifying, and then insult is added to injury when we're dismissed as overreacting (how many times have we heard "You're just too sensitive"?), deluded or malicious, as inventing stories, exaggerating, imagining things, misinterpreting -- it goes on and on. The fact is that there is next to nothing anyone can do to modify a narcissist's behavior and the only useful advice I ever got (first from my non-narcissistic parent, later repeated by my Jungian analyst) was 'Get out and stay out.'"

Haven't we all been there? Where do you BEGIN to try to explain to someone who's never been in the nightmare we're in? Even some therapists just cannot relate - because it's, well, as Joanna said, practically unfathomable, even by those of us who've lived it every day of our lives.

But another quote helps sustain me from Anna Valerious' blog -- actually it's a post by someone responding to Anna, and paying tribute to her, in the comments to her Thanksgiving essay:

"I love your blog, and I feel so sad for the little girl that you were that had to deal with so much. You seem like such a strong and good person, so I guess it's true that through fire the finest steel is tempered. You've been forged in the fires of Hades - a toxic and evil mother - and come out the other side a stronger person."

Those of us who've lived through this, and still have the capacity to trust and to love, who still want to live life without hurting other people, well, I think that's practically a miracle and we need to stop and honor ourselves and LOVE ourselves, even when there's no one else around to do it. And if we ARE lucky enough to have found people to love and who love us, then maybe we should even be at least a teensy bit grateful for our experiences because they make us perhaps just that little bit more GRATEFUL than most people, because we know how precious love and compassion are -- and we'll never take either for granted, coming from ANY one in our lives, and there's a precious gift indeed.

Please have courage and hope, everyone. There's always something good to be found in life, if we stand up for ourselves and move forward with hope and with love for people who deserve it (and that's most people!) Never give up because it's worth fighting for! And if are courageous and lucky and get free and move on with a peaceful, loving heart, it's a very sweet reward indeed!

Grizelda (241) 02 Apr 2009 01:00 AM

I feel guilty CBreeze that I didn't try to help you, other than quoting other people. But I think Joanna's comment that the only useful advice she ever got was get out and stay out.

It's hard!! I've done it, and I'm an only child myself. Though for me, my mother's alienated or never gotten close to anybody in her family -- and she kept me isolated from them so I hardly know them -- so perhaps I have an easier row to hoe than most people.

But if you must, "divorce" multiple people in your family - and make your life SAFE for you and your children. I hope that's possible for you -- I realize there are financial concerns and just all sorts of other issues that get in people's way and they simply can't do it. In that case, you really REALLY have my heart. Sam Vaknin says mimic the Narcissist and you'll scare them (if they yell, yell back; if they criticize, criticize back...) That is, if you can't get away from them, which is always always the best advice, I think. Or figure out how to distance yourself from this person and just look at them as a guinea pig in a weird science experiment (isn't that your advice, Beth?) Oh I've read so much it runs together, but perhaps you can distance your mind and feelings from her even if you can't distance your body.

What I've had to do is dig deep - and get determined to find some COURAGE. I'm a wimp who can't handle confrontation to save my life! One trick before 'no contact' I tried was to keep a notebook very near and when my NMom said hurtful things, I'd immediately write them down -- so I could bring them up to her later, if need be. Not that ever had the courage to do that. Oh, another trick, when a hurtful thing is said, say "What did you say? I want to make sure I understand what you said?" And then get your notebook and write it down -- and that might make her curtail the hurtful comments? (I never managed that either!) I just had to leave. I had come to a point where I had to run or die, so I went No Contact, but again, I understand that not everyone can. And I shouldn't be "counseling" here anyway -- that's Beth job that she does so beautifully. But I couldn't go to sleep thinking about your post and predicament and wanted to at least TRY to help! God Bless You!

whatisnormal (81) 02 Apr 2009 09:53 AM

Hi, Beth. I am 36 and have recently discovered (w/in last 2 weeks) my mom most likely suffers from NPD. Even though I haven't always known what to call it, I have known for a while that my mom has emotional problems; until recently I just referred to her as having a child's mind with the body and all the legal rights of an adult. So basically I grieved the normal "mother-daughter" relationship quite some time ago...I just didn't know the clinical term for its cause of death.

My concerns kind of echo those of CBREEZE regarding my own familial and financial responsibilities. I completely get boundaries, and I understand that legally my mom's financial problems and whatever messes she creates between now and the time she passes are not mine. I get this logically, but it's tough not to feel sorry for someone who is emotionally weaker than yourself and also who you come to realize didn't necessarily choose to be that way. The natural thing to want to do for someone weaker is to use your strength to lift them up to a better place than where they are right now. In reading about NPD, though, I now question whether a better place is even a possibility. CAN they get well?

I do understand my own emotional health, and by extension that of my family, is best served with as much distance from her as possible. Luckily I live a few hundred miles away from her. Still, like CBREEZE, I struggle with a couple of things. One is with keeping up a façade with the extended family, and community, that we have a normal mother-daughter relationship. On the one hand I just want to scream out to everyone "do you see what I see" in this woman? And then on the other hand, I am sensitive to the fact that generally all that really does is make everyone feel really weird. I think in my case, unless public outing is somehow beneficial to anyone (and I cannot see how it would be), a certain amount of discretion is what is necessary just to keep a bit of class and order in tact for everyone involved. I can see nothing to be gained by causing a scene...I certainly don't need any extra drama in my life...who does, right? And it isn't really fair of me to make others miserable because of what ultimately is my cross to bear. After all, I feel sure they have their own burdens.

While I struggle with a sense of duty towards my mom, my focus is first and foremost on MY family, i.e. my husband and young son. I am a bit fortunate for now that (a) I live out of state and (b) my mom's mom is still alive and well and exercises much authority over my mom (did I say much, I meant full). She is the only one my mom attempts to fool/please anymore (my mom basically knows my brother and I see through or at least do not believe in her fantasies, and we no longer bend to her manipulations). While I realize her mom is likely the person that made my mom what she is, as dysfunctional as it may seem, I can appreciate that at least she is able to bring a tiny bit of structure and rule to the table for my mom. My mom's mom is controlling, manipulative, emotionally fragile (so no one can call her on either of the aforementioned traits w/out being dubbed an evil, evil person in return), etc. She would never be a first choice care giver for someone you love, but she is the only one my mom really lives to please outside of herself. My mom does of course naturally hide things from her mom, the typical things that she knows will be criticized or viewed as unacceptable, but by far her mom has the most influence. Even though my mom isn't providing her mom with full disclosure of her behaviors for fear of losing her love and approval, she has to stay on track at least somewhat just to keep up pretenses. That I see as a good thing.

All these things being said, while I can see what's happening with my mom for what it is, can I really ignore that due to the NPD I have a mom who is a sitting duck financially, emotionally, physically, etc.? She's just an empty shell of a person, and so she is vulnerable to so many different types of predators...and many of them by now have her number (and by that I mean her phone number, debit card #, SS#, etc.). I cannot even count anymore the number of infomercial, snail mail and now internet scams she has fallen for over the years. It has become a bit of a tricky situation now because my dad died 4 years ago and she was fired from her job in Feb. 2007. In many ways she is more desperate now than she has ever been...and when she is desperate the level of "magical solutions to her problem of the day" activity goes through the roof. She turned 60 just after losing her job, so she was eligible for my dad's SSI benefits. She doesn't have a lot of extra money, but she has well enough to get by. I negotiated settlements and paid (from my pocket...they had no savings) most of her creditors after my dad died so she basically had no expenses outside of living. She still has COBRA health coverage until Aug. 2009. She receives unemployment. She has Type II Diabetes. She doesn't take care of herself (health wise) because I don't think she genuinely knows she has to do anything in order to be well...good health and fortune are supposed to fall into her lap through no effort of her own. I sort of think she thinks God is going to take care of her as long as she prays...as if her prayers are more like wish lists that He is obliged to fulfill.

At any rate, I am not surprised that she doesn't have a plan for health care when COBRA runs out, or that she just bought (w/out telling me since she knew I would all but forbid it) a new Kia for $14k at 21% int. over 6 years while unemployed, or that she is ignoring her diabetes (except when she receives doting attention from it) or the fact that she is in denial as to the fact the walls of her mobile home are about to fall down around her. This does not surprise me...this is who she is and what she does. What concerns me is what happens when all of these things come to an inevitable head and just catapult not so much her, but the rest of us, into this rather staggering more imminent reality? What do I do when the consequences of her actions/inactions fall down on me to handle? If she isn't my responsibility at that point, then whose? How do I come to her aide w/out sacrificing my own family's needs?

I fully envision a day in which she is sitting in her recliner watching tv and is suddenly surrounded by only the trees, birds and bees because her walls have fallen down around her. As long as she has this refuge where she can remain independent w/ no one around to hold her accountable, as long as she can be seen as "well" by her mom and peers, as long as she is out and about in new clothes, new car, etc. she doesn't really seem to care to address her basic foundation of poor health, financial or living conditions. But there will come a day when she has no where else to look but in the face of reality, won't there? When all of her fantasies come to an abrupt halt...when she has dug that financial hole again and is squarely on the losing side where her health is concerned?

What happens when someone w/ NPD hits the bottom? Does it usually lead to them take steps towards becoming well, or do they just bury their heads further into the sand (with something so obvious staring them in the face I don't see how they can...but my mom's level of denial never ceases to amaze me)? Is it better to let them hit bottom, or to use your "adult" foresight to intervene and try to help them heal and possibly grow up? CAN they grow up? Or is their whole life just one big sad saga seen through the immature eyes of a 6 year old? Have you ever seen anyone go from NPD to a fully in tact adult version of themselves? She currently takes Zoloft for depression...my guess is there is not a pill made to counteract an adult having the cognitive abilities of a child, is there? I hate the idea of pills at all, but with my mom they seem to be her best friend...if something is broken, give it a magical pill.

Thanks so much for taking time to read these posts...what a wonderful service. I was so glad to find this site...I don't actually know anyone in person that is dealing with this type of situation and I have found this to be a great outlet.

Grizelda (241) 02 Apr 2009 04:50 PM

I don't want to show-boat on here too much, but I especially wanted to respond to your post, whatisnormal. First, I'm really touched by your compassion and concern about your NMom - you must be a very good person.

The second thing that I wanted to address was your point about what to tell other people. When I first decided to go NC, I wrote an essay and decided I would keep it in my purse at all times, and if "put on the spot" I would pull out my essay to explain myself. There were numerous versions of the thing, accompanied by a sort of vague background nervousness about how it would when I finally had to "explain."

I keep going through adjustments to my plan, but last night I was thinking that it would be extremely poor form for me to be sharing details of my personal life with anyone that I wasn't extremely close to, like my nuclear family and a handful of very long term friends, who already know some of the story from knowing me for decades.

What I want now is the courage to say that my mother and I have issues that I'm not comfortable talking about but I decided not to have contact with her. Whew! (now can this "plan" work.) What I really want to do is move a long way away where there's no chance I'll run into mutual acquaintances and connections and therefore I won't have worry that I'll have to "explain" the situation to someone, like an assisted-living worker or administrator, etc. I just want all this to go away (like I have) -- but one step at a time. Every day I become more sure that I've done the right thing with NC -- and whatever I have to endure, even public censure, well, it's better than the hell I was in.

cbreeze (20) 04 Apr 2009 07:09 PM

Thanks so much, GRIZELDA, for your encouraging, enlightening, and kind words

Beth McHugh (13211) 05 Apr 2009 10:55 PM

Hi Whatisnormal, you have raised so many issues that I can't answer all of them in the context of this forum. But I suspect your mother may have a dual diagnosis, ie. she may have NDP plus another personality disorder as from what you describe she does not ft the typical pattern. No, sadly, she will not get well and as you area compassionate person you will have to learn to walk the delicate road between being humane for your mother's sake and saying "no" for your own. It is not easy but at least you know what you are dealing with. There can be many grief issues surrounding dealing with a narcissistic mother, if you need further help in dealing with the situation down the track you can contact me at http://yourconlinecounselor.com Best wishes, Beth

whatisnormal (81) 07 Apr 2009 08:41 AM

GRIZELDA, thanks so much for the kind words. I think I like your most recent approach...go for it! I don't feel you actually owe anyone details, unless your actions affect them directly. AL workers especially are getting paid to perform a service, not to pry. I have to say, I know I benefit greatly from the distance...I didn't move to get away from my mom, but since the move, I have identified many benefits, such as not being guilted into attending as many family functions with her side of the family. Over the years, she has sort of pimped her children out for her mom's amusement, partly almost as a sacrificial offering for which she would receive some sort of praise, and partly so that there was someone else for her mom to focus upon. Still, kids to either of them are clearly supposed to be perfect, cute little robots that don't actually act like real children. It's a great place to visit if you ignore these minor details. Thank goodness I moved! I wish you much luck!

Beth, thanks very much for your reply...it sounds like you are saying it's about to get really interesting. I will most likely take you up on the counseling site; isn't there currently a waiting list?

I have read so much on NPD since my original post that my head is spinning. I agree that she probably has something in addition to NPD, but the NPD seems to really fit in many instances (too many to list on a thread). While, as I mentioned, I have almost always known her to be not quite right, at the very least inappropriate, I never looked into it being anything deeper than immaturity...which seemed obviously a result of her mom's smothering oversight over the years. After my dad died, I did begin to look into personality disorders because her symptoms were "in my face" such that I could not ignore something bigger possibly being at play. I read about sociopath, antisocial, bipolar, borderline, but nothing has fit the bill as closely as NPD.

Before discovering NPD, I would become infuriated at her insane behaviors. The fact that she would engage in the same behavior that had already burned her, badly in some instances, and act surprised when it yielded the same nasty results over and over, was mind boggling to say the least. And I began to recognize the manipulations for what they were, which were hurtful and also made me quite angry. Now, I am a little ticked that I cannot really get ticked anymore...at her anyway. It's the disorder that is making her do it.

Additionally, after much reading and now having somewhat of an understanding of the disorder, a flood of childhood experiences have begun rushing to the surface, some long forgotten and some that I think of occasionally with a sense of "what was that anyway" but have never really tried to understand. It is actually annoying how much this is consuming me...I think my husband would agree! It is driving me nuts because for one, I like to put things into order and work them out to resolution...and this seems to not have one. My brain doesn't seem to get that, though...as it keeps trying to solve the puzzle.

Grizelda (241) 08 Apr 2009 10:13 PM

Wow, again I'm impressed at what a good person you are, whatisnormal. I think since learning about NPD and the astounding number of ways my mother's behavior matches the descriptions of NPD behavior in so many blogs, books, victim comments, etc., -- I am MORE ticked off !! I think all my life I kept trying to blame myself and excuse her -- but finding out it really WAS her, all along, well, the floodgates have opened up for me, with all the repressed hurt, anger and rage of my 53 years pouring out. Whew!

I did want to relate a very special and wonderful thing that happened to me last week. It was my husband's birthday and N-mom called him to arrange a dinner date with him and my two sons. Of course, I skipped it, having gone NC in Feb.

Anyway, after the dinner, I was talking to my older son, 20, and telling him I felt bad that he was caught in the middle of this mess and hated that he had to feel uncomfortable. He interrupted me and said, "Mom, please don't apologize. I think you did exactly what you should have done. Absolutely!" (This son had noticed the ugly way my mother talked to me and had mentioned it years before, much to my amazement! - I really thought no one ever "heard" it that way but me.)

Later, I called a good friend of mine and told her what my son had said. It turned out her mother had been bullied (by her mother's mother) and my friend said that she and her sisters had suffered a lot of pain, watching their mother be tortured. She said she wished her mother could have stood up to her own mother, but she died, having never done so, and that broke her heart.

I can't tell you what that meant to me. All the counseling in the world couldn't match the, well, I don't know the word -- exoneration? I felt so validated and more at peace than I've felt at any point during this nightmare. I hope everyone here finds PEACE in their struggle with NPD - I can't remember the source of this old adage, but I love it: "As long as you live, you must keep on learning HOW to live." It's never too late to reclaim your life and make it better.

selfresponsible (50) 10 Apr 2009 04:07 PM

Grizelda,

I feel such a delicious feeling of well-being when you relate your story of how exonerated you feel and how at peace, since you realized some children see and appreciate their parents' struggles with being ACON's. I feel peace just from reading your post.

And thank you so much for that quote about always needing to learn how to live, no matter how far along you go in life. I love it! It's a keeper! I've never heard it before, but I sure need to remember it!

Happy Holidays, Everybody

whatisnormal (81) 14 Apr 2009 06:47 AM

GRIZELDA, Thanks for sharing your story...how wonderful! It sounds like you have raised a very compassionate, mature young man! Receiving validation at all in these situations is invaluable, but when you can also have a sense of pride about the person providing it, wow. That has to make for a pretty special moment. Congratulations!

Psychologist2B (75) 14 Apr 2009 11:20 AM

Hi, I think this discussion is sooo helpful. I'm an only child, and my dad died in 2005. I have struggled with depression all of my adult life, as did my dad. Really, it has only been since my dad died that I have come to understand my mom has a strong narcissistic streak. I don't really know if she would qualify for a diagnosis. I'm studying to be a psychologist (I'm 46) and am careful about saying such things. However, it's as if she has "come out of the closet" since my dad's death. Who knows if she is actually worse because of aging and not giving a --- or if my own personal maturity (not to mention psychological education) makes me see everything more clearly. The has never been physical abuse, but lately I have realized that the worst sin in my family was to fail to read minds. I could easily be blindsided by wounding words that I did not expect at all. So I am constantly on guard, and feel so low if I have to listen to criticism that I was unprepared for. I don't make friends with women very well. IN reading this blog, I see people feeling embarrassed about not seeing the narcissism in their moms before. Well, I'm 46, and have been studying psychology for at least 8 years, and it has only been in the last couple of years that I have seen it. John Bowlby talked about, "knowing things you're not supposed to know, and feeling things you're not supposed to feel." Any time I differ from my mother, she spins it that I am in the wrong. I am just now realizing that is just crazy. And I'm realizing she is not likely to change. I had a big blow-up with her at Christmas, when she was anxious and a nervous wreck and ended up "jumping on me with both feet" for no apparent reason. My husband, kids, and I packed up and left ... and four months later she still says I was the one that threw a fit. Fortunately, this time my husband was in the next room and assured me I am not crazy, that I did absolutely nothing to provoke her. I have begun setting limits with her --- like when we left at Christmas. A couple of days ago we were just talking on the phone, and she unexpectedly slipped in a cutting remark. I was (as always) so taken off guard I didn't respond --- but later I did call back and tell her that she had hurt my feelings. She of course denied EVERY doing ANYTHING but being GOOD to me ALL of my life. I don't expect her to recognize her problem. I am just hoping that limit-setting will work so that I can continue to have some sort of relationship (although more at a distance than before). Do others that are in this situation think this is do-able?

Psychologist2B (75) 14 Apr 2009 01:52 PM

Oh --- my kids also see this problem. My oldest son, age 21, has virtually cut off contact with my mom(without every articulating why) and when the so-called "christmas incident" happened a few months ago, my second son (age 18) said when we left, "Well, mom, if you hadn't done it, I would have had to --- grandma and I were gonna have to have a smackdown!" Which made me laugh because we both knew having a "smackdown" with an old lady was ridiculous --- but it feels terrific that I have developed good relationships with my own kids where they can see such nonsense clearly.

Beth McHugh (13211) 14 Apr 2009 05:59 PM

Hi What is normal, yes, my books are closed but f you would like to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com we could look at when we could fit you in, if you decide to go that way. Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 14 Apr 2009 06:04 PM

To all recent commentors, thank you for telling your stories so that others can see that they are not alone. Having an NPD mother is a lonely experience but one that often doesn't take its full impact until we become adults and realise what is going on. There is always muh anger, greiving, depression, een anxity. There are issues of abandonment and low self esteem. But while you cannot change your parent it is possible to minimize the impact that your parent is continuing to have on you. Do not think that you are stuck in whatever rut you are, even the worse scenarios can be improved. It is also easier to do this while you parent still lives, although it is possible to deal with the harm that has been incurred. Once you are out of the tunnel of powerlessness, you will wonder ow you ever put up with it all. There is hope!

Grizelda (241) 14 Apr 2009 11:39 PM

Thank you so much, selfresponsible & whatisnormal - you've made me feel so good! And it's such a relief to be told, Beth, that's it's OFTEN the case that you can't figure out the nightmare you've been in all your life till many years later! It makes me feel less stupid about all this.

And I've spent so much time thinking about your question, Psychologist2B - and thanks for sharing your story, btw!! Anyway, I honestly think I'm such a total spineless WIMP that staying in contact with my NP would never work. I freeze, I stutter, I feel my blood pressure rising, but I can never manage to deal with confrontation - and my mother thrives on it; she's never more happy or more alive than when she's in a fight.

And so, I really think NC is the only solution for me. I'm trying so hard to understand what Beth says about the guilt and grief and stuff being terrible - and I do feel some guilt, but for me, I think it's mostly terror and embarrassment really - terror that I'll run into her again and embarrassment that someone will put me on the spot about the NC. I don't think it's right to "spill my guts" but I'm such an addict about getting people's approval, that I'm not sure I can stay calm and vague.

But you know, to me, that's NOTHING compared to the constant rage from being in near daily contact. Maybe time will change my mind, but right now, I believe the unsolved issues down inside me are things I can deal with - and in a way, I almost relish thinking about them because I've got 50+ years to sort of detach from and look at from a more objective, less emotional, "safe" place, and it feels so so GOOD to feel I've figured it out and escaped.

Being treated like dirt, and talked to like I was the lowliest most disgusting slave in the world, and having to look in my mother's face and see her contempt for me -- I just don't think I could EVER go back to that now that I've mostly figured out that it's not my fault and I don't deserve it. Whewwwww!

But I do look forward to hearing how things go for you in your attempt to come to terms with your mother without going "NC." Take care of yourself -- everybody! As Beth says, you are never stuck, not with all the help there is now, from her, here and elsewhere online, and in books and things, help that there never was before! We're all very lucky, actually. Generations before us didn't have all this, and my heart goes out to them.

Psychologist2B (75) 15 Apr 2009 06:48 AM

Grizelda, I just want to add a thought that may or may not help: I too have a tendency to "spill my guts" about everything. I believe this goes back to what I said in my original post --- in my family, the true sin was failing to read minds. Somehow I could cope with my mother's disapproval if I was going against her will on purpose. But I was constantly trying to avoid those unavoidable landmines, when without warning I would be targeted. I have felt so much shame if I received unexpected criticism. Which seems to me backwards --- if something is TRULY wrong, isn't it WORSE if it is on purpose? Isn't it more excusable if it was by accident? But when you live in a household full of invisible landmines, somehow you get trained to feel shame at the stuff you didn't know you did. Anyway, the way I coped for years is to "be upfront" about everything, especially things that might be considered a fault or weakness or mistake. It kept somebody from being able to blindside me with criticism. I am having to work on this too.

Grizelda (241) 15 Apr 2009 11:55 AM

That is so fascinating, Psych! I'm going to think about that. I'm embarrassingly "open" and find it almost unbearable to be criticized unless I've "owned" whatever the issue is.

My mom is the opposite. She lies and pretends constantly, and she gets furious if she's criticized. Well, we both do, but I hide it and after the anger fades, I feel ashamed and tend to believe whatever the criticism was, no matter what. She DENIES what the criticism was, no matter what.

It's like being around her taught me to be like her (be oversensitive) and yet respond in an opposite way (acceptance and deep shame - vs. complete denial.)

But yes yes yes on being FIRST to admit a flaw or fault, to prevent the agony of being criticized or disapproved of. That fear makes me avoid a lot of things to (does NPD bring about Avoidant Personality Disorder in relatives? Both me and my mom's younger brother and older sister seem to have Avoidant PD which almost seems like the opposite side of the coin? Oh, and my grandmother (my mother's mother) had that as well - plus she could never say "no" to my mom or to anyone.

Grizelda (241) 15 Apr 2009 12:13 PM

I know I go overboard posting here but I just had the weirdest thought which strikes me as maybe an epiphany, at least in my own family.

I read somewhere that they've figured out that shyness is genetic. What if families that have the gene for extreme shyness are more like to have (a) Narcissistic PD, because it's a defense mechanism for a person who tends to embarrassment and shame; and (b) Avoidant PD, because, well, it's another way of dealing with the same extreme trait?

Beth McHugh (13211) 16 Apr 2009 06:10 PM

There is no known connection between shyness and NPD. Extreme shyness can be genetic but it is in no way related to narcissism which is a personality disorder. Avoidance PD also ha a much different set of criteria to NPD. Hope this helps. Best wishes, Beth

whatisnormal (81) 16 Apr 2009 08:22 PM

Hi Psychologist2B. I can certainly relate to the notion of seeming to go from "something is wrong with my mom but I don't know what" to "whoah, my mom appears to seriously have a full blown personality disorder" after my dad died. Though I was aware of certain character flaws in my mom all during my life, I didn't have to personally deal with them as though they were my direct responsibility until after my dad passed away. I initially attributed most of her seemingly "worse" behaviors to the fact that we are all individuals before we merge our lives with our marital partners...it stands to reason that once one partner passes that the other would revert back to their "prior" selves to a certain extent...they would possibly fall back into all of the things that maybe they had repressed about themselves during the marriage for the sake of compromise. Now that I am re-evaluating things through the lens of NPD, I can see that she is exactly the same now as when she was with my dad...it just looks different from the front row, as opposed to from the balcony. It is simply more obvious to me now because he isn't around to buffer or deflect. I remember in the months following our dad's death, I remarked to my brother that our mom was becoming the worst possible version of herself...in a sense it seemed she had gone wild. I believed that to be true at the time, but now I can look back and see that she was and still is the same, and really I am the one that has changed because I am looking at everything from a different vantage point. All that being said, I also don't discount the fact that she probably is getting or will get worse with age...there are also new factors in play as well, such as her dad also having passed away since then and her mom exerting more control over her life. It's kind of strange...her mom seems to provide her w/ NS, enabling her to the nth degree, but she is also her puppet master and at times her toughest critic. There are so many odd layers to my mom's behaviors that I don't think I could live long enough to sort them all out...I think I will just have to be satisfied knowing there are issues and living my life outside of those issues to the best of my ability. I think that is all any of us can do. My natural tendency is to want to know "why" and so I have kept myself up at night, almost tortured, trying to solve some million dollar math question...math is not my strong point by the way. Now I think to myself, so what if I never learn the why...what would I do with it if I had it? What "could" I do? Nothing. So, I no longer need the why...just the how, as in how to best move forward. I think the why has kept me running in place instead of moving forward.

Beth McHugh (13211) 16 Apr 2009 08:28 PM

When the non-NPD partner dies there is often no checks and balances in the home anymore and the unbalanced behaviors can now go largely unchecked. Hence it all appears to get worse.

Psychologist2B (75) 18 Apr 2009 06:46 PM

I think that's exactly what happened in my mother's case. My dad was a strong personality too but not narcissistic. I think he kept her in check, which certainly kept my childhood from being as horrific as my cousins' (my mom's older sister is such a lifelong, blatant narcissist that the whole family sees it, though they don't use the N word). I personally am interested in the "whys" of this problem because it helps me from a professional standpoint. But, from a personal standpoint, it really doesn't matter. I can't step out of myself and stop being hurt by the narcissistic behaviors. And, I have already spent a lot of time and effort excusing her behavior or absorbing the blame or pain. Somehow whether or not I understand the "why," I still have to accept that "it is what it is" and do what I have to do to be healthy and whole.

Beth McHugh (13211) 21 Apr 2009 05:41 PM

Hi Psych2B, yes, the "why" is not as important as the acceptance. Until you accept you will always be susceptible to the pain your mother dishes out. If you need personal help in getting there you can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

cbreeze (20) 22 Apr 2009 07:12 PM

I've been going with no contact for about 2 weeks now, and I must say that even with tremendous other stress in my life (ex issues, teen, toddler, full-time college, finances, etc.), I've felt about 20 pounds lighter. This space prompted her to grill my daughter at a family event I didn't attend about hoping she gets to see her again before she dies and various other guilt trips she tried to put my middle school daughter through. Thankfully my daughter sees through it without me saying a word. I've reinforced that my decision is not hers, and that I will always support her having a relationship with any family member that's not a danger to her.

I can relate to many saying they felt kind of stupid for not recognizing the disorder earlier. When I told my closest friends of the no contact and finding this site, they all started with the same astonishment that I hadn't known she was narcissistic.

I can totally relate to the invisible land mines too, which turned me into a virtual mute in my mid to late teens.

Every time I visit this site I'm astounded at how I can see myself in everyone's feelings and stories. It helps me every time.

I wish I knew why I have to be alone in this, with no brothers or sisters, no father or stepfather, and an extended family full of people who are afraid to speak up for themselves or me.

Thanks to this site though, I'm truckin' along in my no contact, feeling no guilt, and after a very long time finally thinking I might be deserving of a good, happy life.

Grizelda (241) 23 Apr 2009 10:55 PM

I'm so sorry about what happened to your daughter, CBreeze! I can't help but believe that our children are "safer" because we stopped sweeping everything under a rug.

I found out about NPD several years ago and didn't make any changes WHATSOEVER at the time, so even though I did know, it still took several years to decide to do major. However, without this site and several others, I don't think I would have had the courage to even think about setting limits, let alone NC. It never dawned on me that I had the right, if that makes any sense. Well, that's not really it, because I knew people, even in my own extended family, who'd avoided their parents, even for long stretches.

I think this site and the others and the books made me feel like I could still respect myself and do this. Without them, I would have felt too guilty, feeling I'd broken some sort of taboo and therefore wasn't a good person. The sites and just as important, the comments by fellow victims like YOU and everyone here, made me look upon NC as a reasonable step - almost one that I owed myself, because I have a right to be treated with respect, even by my mother. Kathy Krajco has a section in her book devoted to how you're treating yourself IF you let someone abuse you - and it's just as wrong as if you watch any OTHER human being abused and choose to do nothing. We matter! I think sometimes children of Narcissists get grilled into them so early that they DON'T matter -- it's just so hard to get over that deeply ingrained belief. But what I took from Kathy's book was that you're doing something truly WRONG if you stand aside, so to speak, and watch YOURSELF be abused and mistreated.

whatisnormal (81) 25 Apr 2009 09:15 AM

Congratulations CBREEZE! What a treat for yourself. It is not an easy thing to do, going NC, but even through its difficulty it sounds as though you are already recognizing some positives. Embrace all the good stuff you are feeling right now; don't forget it so that in the future you may draw strength from it in the event things get tougher with your NM down the line.

As you say, there are so many other stresses in just life itself. To top it all off by having a NM, well, that just tips the scale to a whole other level of chaos that few can imagine. I am coming to realize there is not a way to actually balance my own real life issues along side the fantastic life issues of my NM. You have to actually choose one reality over the other. Either you play her game at the expense of participating in your own life (over in the real world), or you draw a line in the sand and just let her "be" over in her make believe world. This doesn't all of a sudden make it an easy thing to deal with, but it does bring fourth a means to move forward beyond the mess. I like the concept you put out in your post, GRIZELDA, about being a participant in your own abuse. Yeah, when you put it like that, get me out of here, right?

It is an awesome thing I am reading about in the families of many in this thread...despite the lack of nurturing mothers in our own childhoods, our children all seem to be turning out to be feeling, compassionate people. I think that springs a great deal of hope and validation for us all. It means we have not only survived but we are thriving in spite of everything....

I haven't chosen t go NC at this point...but I have to say that since my mom's revelation of the car purchase (my breaking point), I have had very little contact with her. It seems to be producing more sane days than not, actually! She bent my brother's ear some weeks ago about the matter...immediately after he told her that his house had burned to the ground that morning. It shouldn't surprise me that on the day his house burned down that she was spilling her problems on him. He kind of chuckled when he told me about it...what else can you do in such a moment and in response to such oddly inappropriate behavior? It seems now we just shake our heads and lightly refer to her as "a piece of work" despite our wishing that we could actually be shocked by her outrageous behaviors. Unfortunately or not, this is now just what we call normal (for her).

At any rate, I too find so much comfort in coming to this site to check in on every one's stories, especially the progress and success stories. It really does empower me to keep going in my own personal situation.

Psychologist2B (75) 27 Apr 2009 11:49 AM

I have found this discussion really helpful, and also I find it very interesting that there is such a wide spectrum of experiences, kind of according to how severe your mom's behavior was/is and also what the rest of your family was like. Also, I find it curious that some people knew all their lives that "something was not right" with their moms, and others (like me) had to get a lot of years and experience behind them before they realized it. Most of my life I thought something was wrong with me (hence, chronic depression). I was always trying to be good enough because I thought I was the problem. She thought she was always right, therefore I swallowed her reality hook line and sinker. Fortunately for me, she was never abusive. She also swung between understanding me and being oblivious to my needs. She always has been extremely anxious but oblivious to her own anxiety. Most of my life I had a needle phobia, which I knew dated to when I was three years old. I remember it clearly --- I had to go to get blood drawn one week, and it took 6 nurses to hold me down. Then I had to have blood drawn the very next week, and they wrapped me in a sheet to do it (common practice in the 60s). I didn't know why the blood was drawn until a few years ago --- I had complained of being dizzy and my mother got anxious that I had diabetes because my grandmother did. There was only one episode of dizziness. My grandmother had Type II diabetes --- I was NOT overweight at 3 and it seems crazy to me that I would have been put through that. Most likely because my mother blew the whole thing out of proportion to the dr. I had to wear braces on my legs the first year of life --- "just in case" because my feet turned out a little. As with everybody else, these don't sound too bad until you realize this kind of stuff was a lifelong pattern. And when you combine this with my recent revelation that mom is narcissistic, it makes me feel that I was put through a lot because relieving my mom's anxiety always came first. Most recently, my eldest son told us his girlfriend was pregnant and they were getting married. I was very worried (as most parents would be) and although I told my mother what was going on, I didn't discuss it much with her. Whenever the subject came up though, she went on and on, catastrophizing the situation. The kids did get married, and we like our new daughter in law and think she and our son are good human beings that are going to be good parents, and overall things are working out. But anytime my mom brings the subject up, she drags up how it all happened and just makes me so anxious I'm almost sick. And she is apparently oblivious to what she is doing to me. I wish I could have had a mom that tried to make me feel better --- AND KNEW HOW TO MAKE ME FEEL BETTER. But I don't, so I am learning to depend on people other than my mom.

Beth McHugh (13211) 27 Apr 2009 04:53 PM

Hi Psych2B, it is important that you identify your mother's behavior as being pertinent to her and her only. Unfortunately adult children of NPDs have often learned to absorb and generalize the false beliefs of the parent onto other situations just as the parent did. This is all part of the recovery and separation process. Best wishes, Beth

selfresponsible (50) 02 May 2009 12:16 PM

Hello, Everyone,

My N Mom mentioned in a letter at the end of January that she was going to give me her Power of Attorney. I have not yet written her back because I needed to think about it, torture myself over it, revamp all the reasons why I shouldn't do it, talk a lot to my therapist about it, and pray about it. So now, it's almost Mothers' Day. I guess everybody knows where this is going. I only talk to her on major holidays and her birthday, and maybe once or twice in between, and our conversations stay polite, so I know she's looking forward to my call. But I have to tell her "no, I cannot accept your Power of Attorney". My excuse to her will be real: I live 1,000 miles away, am struggling financially myself, and cannot take on the care and management of someone else's life, especially when it costs me thousands of dollars in car rental, hotels, plane tickets, and lost time from work every time I go (which is extremely infrequently). I've seldom been able to bring myself to make such financial sacrifices when I know the visit will be a heavy burden emotionally to me also - not worth the trip.

Anyway, I cannot imagine putting her needs first, before even my simple freedom, happiness, and lack of taking responsibility for her. She would never appreciate the sacrifice, would feel entitled, and would, in short order once she realized I had mad a commitment to her, begin treating me like a slave. I cannot put myself through that again. Having to tolerate it the first 20 years of my life was a life-time enough for me.

But if I tell her it is because I deserve a life of joy and am not obligated to be her caretaker, as far as the fair rules of the Universe go, her outrage will be because I have "abandoned" her. She will give no second thought to my claim that my responsiblilty for my own happiness is valid and must come first. She won't even think my putting my own financial responsibilities to myself ahead of her needs to be valid.

The fact is, if I won the lottery and felt I could help her without any sacrifice of any kind (emotionally OR financially), I would still never take care of her in any primary caretaker kind of way. I would hire an eldercare manager. If my Mom would not cooperate with the eldercare manager I would call Adult Protective Services and have the State take over her care. I would never agree to any kind of legal connection with her, be it Power of Attorney or Guardianship. The court would have to appoint a legal guardian if it ever came to that. And last to be mentioned, but not least in power, I would pray for her well-being from a distance.

So I sent her her favorite candy, to arrive by Mother's Day. My plan is to sweeten the blow because, though I had hoped to tell her in a letter instead of over the phone (avoiding her hystrionics and attacking of me), I have waited too late to have it be in a letter, which would mean I would have to skip one of the only calls she ever gets from me each year, and I don't have the heart to do that. I will have to steel myself and mention in the conversation that I have been thinking seriously about her mentioning the Power of Attorney, and that I think she really should search around for someone she trusts who is in her city - someone who knows a lot more than I do about eldercare. I will say that I do not want her to be without the help she needs when the time comes, merely because she has been counting on me to be there when I cannot do it without severe financial hardship to myself, and will not put my personal obligations to my financial security on the line. This is my plan. My therapist supports me 100%. God Help Me!

Selfresponsible.

Grizelda (241) 04 May 2009 12:59 AM

Oh self, I do wish you peace and courage in dealing with this thorny issue. I don't know your mother - but with mine, I'd be assuming that she's planning something - perhaps to use the Power of Attorney to ask you to become more involved in her affairs, talking to doctors/lawyers for her, if she's in hospital, being in charge of talking to the doctors to help make decisions, other things I'm sure. You clearly aren't obligated to do anything you don't want to do - but SHE may tell you you are and she may tell everybody she deals with you have PoA and should be brought into the situation.

Is is possible to write a clear, calm letter explaining why you can't do it and suggesting alternatives? One of your brothers? Another relatives - a sister or brother? If she has a lawyer, he could do it?

Your reasons are very practical and good reasons for refusing - but even if they weren't, it's not a legal obligation that you take on this task, and it sounds like there are other candidates, not even as far away as you are.

I think it's ok to be pleasant on Mother's Day and put your refusal in writing, assertively and as politely as possible, perhaps listing your reasons if that would make you feel better. I'll be thinking about you and hoping that it turns out satisfactorily.

But you are right - if you tell her you deserve a life of joy and don't have to be her caretaker, she'll probably rage at the "put down". Still, wouldn't it be nice to be able to CALMLY say something like, "I understand how you feel and I'm sorry your upset, but it's my decision, knowing that I can't cope with the requirements due to time constraints and health consideration. Perhaps Brother would be able to do it?"

I'm sure I could never pull that off myself but I sure wish I could. Maybe someday, at least with hubby at my side, I'll be able to stand up for myself, without anger or crying or melting into the frightened worthless little wimp I've always been with her.

fraser (16) 04 May 2009 11:05 AM

i am a 48 year old woman, married with 2 boys. i have been fighting to make sense of this disorder that my mother has all my life. i have always been told i wasnt good enough, pretty enough, smart enough and the kicker skinny enough. i was also told it was me who had the problems and shipped off to doctors at a young age. if i ever questioned a comment i was told i am taking it the wrong way. as a child you dont know the difference. you think this is normal behavior but you soon find out through your own mental health issues that it is not. anyone that has a parent with this psycho personality will develope some kind of mental health issues. i was called crazy by my mom when i was a child. my dad was a coward in not wanting to deal with her. she sent all of us, 3 total to boarding school so she wouldnt have to deal with us and be able to continue her affair. i really do hate her and yes i wish she would die so i could have some peace. its very hard for me to believe in a higher being when his woman has been able to destroy so many lives. i dont care what her story is or why she is the way she is i want her to burn in hell for what she has done to me my brother and sister. she also drinks and has money so she holds that over our heads. yes, i feel that i should get paid for all the abuse and constant put downs. i have believe it or not been in therapy most of my adult life. the older she gets the worse it gets and the more i want her to die. i dont feel sorry for her at all. she is so unaware of anyone but herself. she told me that i was going to ruin my son because i wasnt sending him to a college of her choice, i have been told that i am a horrible mother and ungrateful for the wonderful life i was given by my parents. normally i can handle this crap okay but lately i have become more angry and overrun with negative conversation by her . she doesnt understand why none of us want to spend any time with her, thank god she lives in florida. i am scard to death of ending up like her, i look the most like her and when i look in the mirror i want to throw up. i dont think i will ever have peace. this is a no win situation they win its always about them...go figure

keldubs78 (20) 04 May 2009 11:45 AM

Hello. I'm very happy to have found this site. I am 30 years old and have come to realize that my mother suffers from NPD - my own therapist diagnosed her (through my descriptions).

Since I was an early teen, I began having a difficult relationship with her however, the problems have always been there but I was too young to understand. I think as I became a teenager and started to want to think for myself and she couldn't control every situation is when it started to get worse.

I am an only child which is so frustrating because I am the only target of her issues. Well, also my dad is which is another problem in itself.

As I have gotten older, gotten married and had a daughter myself, things have only gotten worse. Now, she perceives it that she has no control because I am living my own life and what's worse, she most of the time seems jealous of me.

In my mother's mind, everyone's life is better than hers. However, from an outsider's perspective she has a great life. She never had to work. My dad was a doctor so we always lived comfortably, although not extravagantly, so in her mind, everyone who had more material things has a better life.

She has destroyed almost all the relationships in her life by acting selfish, jealous and petty. She blames everything on her "horrible" childhood - which consisted of her parents "ignoring" her (according to her) because they favored 2 of the other children over the others. Everything negative in her life (which is pretty much everything according to her) is because of this childhood existence. I will not deny that my grandparents probably did favor some of the other kids - however, at some point, I don't believe this is an excuse to act out for the rest of your life.

I believe she only had one child as to avoid playing favorites like her parents did, however this has negatively impacted me because all of her negativity, criticism, and neurotocism is directed solely toward me. She would swear up and down and back and forth that she loves me but her actions show otherwise.

Everything is about her. Even things about me, are about her. Anything I do wrong is because SHE didn't teach me to do it properly - so I wind up having to console her while she is criticizing me at the same time.

She has never appreciated my dad who is a very kind-hearted, hard-working, just wants everyone to be ok kind of guy. He has stayed with her all these years even though she causes major stress to him daily.

Additionally, my mother was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis about 10 years ago which has added to both her mental and physical problems. I do feel horrible for her that she has this disease but in her mind, no one is ever concerned enough about her or understands what she is going through so everyone is against her.

Even worse, my dad was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease last summer. He is slowly going down hill mentally and physically as well and while she says she is empathic, she constantly makes comments that insinuate she is jealous anytime someone asks him how he's feeling.

Any time she has me alone (without my husband or father around) she lays a big guilt trip on me about anything and everything, her only joy in her life is seeing my daughter, my dad is never around, her friends and sister sees her grandkids several days a week (as opposed to her who usually sees my daughter once every week or two). It's always something. There's no pleasing her. Everything that is said is taken wrong and she gets defensive.

I have tried and have finally accepted through therapy that she will never change. By the way, she has depression and has been to a therapist on and off for 25 years but always ends up quitting (likely because she gets to a point where she refuses to actually work on herself and wants to blame every problem she has on someone or something else).

I am an adult now and I want to live my life in a happy, positive way. I love my father so much and can't stand to see her pick at him little by little while he's also battling an illness. Short of cutting her out of my life, I"m at my wits end for knowing how to deal with this aside from therapy.

She is extremely insecure which is the major source of the problem but she needs me to be a parental figure toward her rather than the other way around. Emotionally, I just cannot handle it. I am a mom myself and I need that to be my focus. Not mothering my own mom!

Beth McHugh (13211) 04 May 2009 06:13 PM

To have any hope of happiness in your own life while dealing with an NPD parent there are several steps to take. One is acceptance of the situation. Sounds easy but it isn't but you will never get any peace until you do. You will also need to go though a grieving period which can last for some time. However the rewards of going through this hell is freedom from the pain of hope and the pain of entrapment. Contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if you feel you need additional help. Best wishes, Beth

fraser (16) 05 May 2009 05:08 AM

i know you are right beth. i dont know which pain would be worse continuing down this dead end path or going through a grieving peroid. do adults of narcissistic parents get any relief when they pass? or are we screwed again with guilt ? i know she can never be the mother we need or needed growing up. i dont even consider her human. how much hell do we have to go through?i will contact you, thanks...s

whatisnormal (81) 05 May 2009 08:58 AM

KELDUBS78, your articulation of the initial conflict with your NM is a pretty close if not spot on description of how things progressed with my own mother. The odd behaviors were there when I was little, and I can identify them now looking back upon them (which is actually quite disturbing), but it was only when I became a teenager that the real sort of open conflict and bewildered head tilts on my part began...because as you stated she was no longer in control when I hit my teens and began forging my own separate identity. It makes me sad now for the little girl that I was, even though I didn't really know there was anything wrong at the time. It is especially bothersome now that I am a mother myself, and I see how much my son needs his mommy. I am very fortunate to have had a dad who was nothing like my mom...in fact the stark differences between my dad's side of the family and my mom's are blatantly obvious even to an outsider. For example, walk into my paternal grandmother's house and you can actually feel the love, warmth and acceptance on your skin. Alternately, walk into my maternal grandmother's house and while it is pristine and beautiful, it is also very cold and sterile, so much so that your body literally tenses up from the chill. That pretty much sums up who my mom and dad were...warm and giving vs. cold and uncomfortable to be around.

I am so sorry to hear about your dad's declining health. It is certainly a very tough thing to watch a dear parent, especially one you look to for the real core of your values, slowly slipping away from you. My dad passed away in 2004 after a 7 year battle with cancer...he was my best friend. He had been a very mentally and physically strong man, and to watch the cancer slowly take that all away from him was heart breaking.

I never understood how he ended up with my mom since they were nothing a like. He was a giver, a true servant to others. He had very high standards for himself and his family...he respected authority and rules and expected the same from his family. That's why I am stunned as to why he picked someone as irresponsible and selfish as my mom. I think she must have pretended to be what he was looking for in order to snag him...she had a 3 year old from a previous marriage and needed to get out of her mom's controlling house again.

My dad worked hard and sacrificed each day of his life for his family...he had perfect attendance even in the last few years he worked while fighting stage iv cancer. My mom called in sick if she had a cramp in her pinky toe or if she just had something else she wanted to do that day...eventually of course she was fired. Oddly she could make it to work without fail when given specific boundaries during probationary periods, i.e. if you call in sick between x and y, you will be fired. Predictably, she called in sick within one or two days after each probationary period had expired, though. Piece of work!! She still thinks she didn't deserve to be fired. To me it is 100% common sense...you don't show, you need to go. But she genuinely seems baffled and offended by it. That big mean store manager had it in for her, she'll tell you.

I sometimes wish I had figured the NPD out before my dad died because there are so many questions I would like to ask him, or at least someone who has observed her as closely as a family member would have over the years. My brother agrees that there is something wrong with her, but he is hesitant to attribute her behaviors to anything with a clinical name. I would love to talk to my dad's mom...but it would be awkward. My mom has basically divorced herself from my dad's side of the family since he died...it was almost as though she couldn't wait to get shed of them. They would do anything for her, but their warmth makes her uncomfortable, I think. Growing up, I recall that she always got a mysterious headache on the days we were having family gatherings on my dad's side. When she did show up to a gathering, I was expected to be her crutch by sticking by her side at all times. As I got older and did begin mingling, she would enter the house and sit in one spot until she thought she had put in enough time to leave...any one who wanted to talk to her should come to her, not the other way around. I guess she feared being rejected if she tried to walk around and insert herself into ongoing conversations. The gatherings on my dad's side were always a lot of fun...chaotic, loud, warm...plenty of laughter. On my mom's side, while I have very nice uncles and one aunt on that side, in the presence of my grandmother, there seems to have been silent rules put into place long, long ago that every one would sit like this, speak like this, eat and chew like this, etc. Very Stepfordesque. Very quiet and dull, except when my dad was still alive. It wasn't so bad visiting when he was along...he shook things up and made the gatherings tolerable. He brought laughter...I don't think my grandmother liked that so much. Still I always dreaded going to my maternal grandmother's house, even as a young child. It was just uncomfortable and a little confusing. I spent more time around my dad's parents than my mom's, so when I did go to see my mom's parents there was a bit of culture shock As I remember it, I used to ask fairly often "can I spend the night with Grandma tonight" referring of course to my dad's mother. That's what kids are supposed to do, right? On the flip side, I was "told" by my mother when I was spending the night with her mother...I don't recall ever asking to do so. I also recall that as a teenager and maybe even a little younger I started to notice something about myself when I would enter my maternal grandmother's home...in her presence my voice actually changed. I talked and had the mannerisms of a much younger child. I suppose subconsciously it felt sinful to be growing up in front of her. I can remember actually being so disgusted with myself for a very long time...the entire walk from the car to the front door I would just keep telling myself over and over to talk normally. But for the longest time, it was over the threshold and there it came, the sweet little voice of a cherub. Ugh! It was a very important accomplishment for me when I started speaking in a mature voice in her presence. That was the beginning of my freedom.

keldubs78 (20) 05 May 2009 11:07 AM

WHATISNORMAL - Thanks for sharing your story. I do see some similarities especially when you talk about your dad's side of the family vs. your mom's side. My maternal grandmother was very controlling and manipulative, however she softened some in her later years and I actually loved her and got along with her very well - however, I was one of the "favorite" grandchildren and some of my cousins received the wrath of her at times - probably similar to what my mom experienced as a child since she wasn't one of the favorites.

Holidays were never enjoyable when I was a child no matter which side of the family we went to because my mom acted like my dad's family has the plague and she also disliked going to see her own family because she despised her mother for what she allegedly did to her during childhood. However, it was always preferred to go to see them. We lived closer to my dad's family which my mother will resent to her grave. They almost divorced when I was very young because they moved from my mom's hometown to close to where my dad was from because he got offered a place in a practice that he couldn't really pass up. We were also still a 2 hour drive from her family so to give you an idea, it's not like they moved cross country. She still to this day mentions how she never wanted to move there and acts like that is one of the many injustices that has been done to her in her life. That was 25 years ago, by the way.

While she always acts like she has so many issues with her family - she hated her mom and was jealous of her sister, she can turn it around in a second by crying that she never gets to see HER family. She also doesn't seem to understand the concept that as time goes on, kids grow up and have their own kids and that doesn't leave a lot of time for devoting tons of time to your extended family. For example, it infuriates her that her sisters don't spend as much of an effort in trying to see my daughter (so their great-niece). While I love my aunts dearly, I totally understand that they also have kids who have their own kids - so their OWN grandkids are their priority. My mom takes it personally that they are not directly involved in HER grandchild's life.

My mother also has a problem with gift-giving. She must bring the perfect gift to everyone she goes to see (which seems nice) however, it turns into a problem if she perceives that the person doesn't like the gift or thank her enough. She will go on and on for days about how so and so didn't send a thank you note (yet). She takes EVERYTHING as a rejection. Every time she comes to visit us it's the same thing. She brings tons of clothes for my daughter and something nice for us - and while I always thank her, she will still go on and on about how she should have gotten the other thing she was going to, and if I don't like it, I can take it back. There was one incident shortly after my daughter was born in which my dad's sister (my aunt) who is not married and has no children of her own bought my daughter a few outfits and apparently I was much more "excited" about those clothes than the ones my mom got her so she said some snide comment and stormed off into her bedroom. She acts like a CHILD! What grown adult storms off into their room for something so insignificant (that is her perception and not even reality).

One last thing I'd like to point out that makes me so angry thinking back is when I was a child she would say things like, "I should have never had children" when she was upset - I now know that this was about HER insecurities and feelings of failure as a parent but as a child you interpret it as "You should have never been born." She used to yell and scream at me about minor things out of her own frustrations and mood swings. I was at her whim. And by the way, I was a model child! Very well behaved, got good grades, didn't rebel. She would also from time to time get extremely depressed and say things like, "everyone would be better off if I wasn't around." Translation to a child, "I'm going to commit suicide" which would send me into a tailspin crying and carrying on because of course I didn't want my mom to die! Now I look back at it and that was a convenient way for her to get my love and affection. By roping me into thinking she might kill herself, I was forced to show her my love and how devastated I would have been without her. TOTALLY SELFISH to do to a child.

The only non- NPD traits she seems to have is that she will admit to me and say she is sorry for how she treated me at times as a child. So, that seems to go against what is classic NPD but in a sense, I always feel that I am being baited into reassuring her that she wasn't a terrible mother so in a way it is still NPDish.

She also goes on and on about how she doesn't want to be a burden to my husband and me if my dad passes away before her. What I want to say is, you are a burden to us NOW by acting the way you do. Taking care of a nice, normally behaved elderly parent would be one thing and not something I would see as much of a burden as something I would like to do for my kind, loving parent who raised me but the thought of something happening to my dad first, leaving my mother behind for us to pick up the pieces will just be more than I can handle. She will be a disaster. What I want to do is shake her and say, "why can't you treat dad nicely and appreciate him now, while he's alive rather than worrying about what's going to happen after he's gone?" Again, she's not concerned about HIM. She's concerned about HERSELF after he's gone.

fraser (16) 05 May 2009 05:19 PM

i have looked through and read most of the bloggs people have written. what i have noticed is a common reply to those bloggs that have ouviously taken a day to write... are soft, smooth, and without hardly any real feeling or anger...."i got it all figured out" . i got news for you you dont and the fact that you think you do is a joke. i am not only refering to my time on this blog but others who are angry and in pain and dont get a response from anyone except for beth. there is a common thread here and it is to give to others what was not given to you or have you forgotton that little blurb? i can totally relate to those out there who are angry and you have every right to be and more. nobody will ever get this totally right. we have good peroids and bad peroids of life. i think it brave to write your true unscripted raw feelings and i stand not in judgement but in admiration. please lets totally ignore this one and go back and offer a kind word to someone else. just cause i dont show alot of compassion doesnt make me a bad person...it makes me a "real person" and a great person!!!!

cbreeze (20) 06 May 2009 08:28 AM

thanks for the encouragement, Whatisnormal! keldubs78, I can totally relate (except for the father part). You seem to have great understanding of your family dynamics, which i hope to have soon. I feel like a total narcissist by posting my issues here. I'm also starting to see scary parallels with how I react to issues with my daughter, who is a sweet, wonderful girl struggling with self-image issues (mainly hair and slower than the popular girls development) and underachievement academically. I'm so scared about treating her the same way.

Lately things around here have become much rougher. My "mother" decided to finally honor a 2 year old promise to take my daughter, now 13, on a cruise. First it was supposed to be during Spring Break, now it's for Summer. So she calls and speaks to my daughter, makes arrangements to pick her up and take her to the travel agent (twice), and books a cruise - without a word to me about when, where, how long, nothing. My daughter spends her summers across the country with her dad, and he could easily say "no cruise, come out here" and that would be the end of that, but my "mother" tells my daughter "Oh, you know your father's not going to get you".

The rough part came when she asked to speak to me last night after talking with my daughter. She told me something about her 2nd, unused car, and I told her that wasn't a priority for me right now as I had my own car issues and couldn't get to the store to get food for my kids. Instant attitude. Then she decided to lie and say the AAA travel agent told her my daughter absolutely couldn't cruise without a passport and told me to gather the papers so she could get her one. Yeah, right. I told her that children under 16 could in fact cruise with just their birth certificates. She then backpeddled and told the truth, and I told her I'd had the papers together for months from when she was supposed to take her over Spring break. Knowing I have no car, she says, "Well, why don't you just go to get her passport then?". Of course she insists on being there (excuse: AAA takes the picture for free. Um, the picture is about $7, and even if that was a problem - despite being far less than the passport itself - I have AAA too). The real deal is she wants my daughter's social, passport, birth certificate, etc. No idea why, thinking about it is stressful. Ok, the rough part (really this time). She gets an attitude because I know the process and have finally spoken up against her lies for the first time... omg, I think ever. She tells me to pick a day and time when I will go get the passport, because she's afraid they won't be able to go if it doesn't come back in time. I am trying to be reassuring by saying, "Even if it doesn't come back in time that won't cancel the trip, she'll just go with her birth certificate, you guys can still go". I get cussed out like there is no tomorrow. My daughter hears the whole thing instead of me, because after I said that she sighed loudly, tsked loudly with her tongue, and ordered me to just pick a day like she said. I said, I don't have a car, you and my daughter are the ones with the schedules to work around, and I'm tired of being talked to like I'm a piece of garbage by you. I just need 30 minutes notice to dress myself and my son and that'll be it. Here's T (my daughter). I hand my daughter the phone, who says, "hi, grandma..... Grandma? Grandma?! Hellloooo, grandma, it's me!" then she looks confused and hangs up.

What happened? My "mother" was so busy cursing me out she paid no attention to the fact that a 13 year old girl was the one listening. My daughter said, "Well, that was interesting", and when I asked what she meant she told me what happened. My "mother" slammed down the phone after her tirade. I apologized to my daughter, who offered me a hug and a smile. I was trying to do the right thing by letting her continue her relationship with her granddaughter, but now the thought of her losing control so often with my daughter being trapped on a boat with her for a week is making me physically ill (she won't allow any of my daughter's friends or any cousins to go unless they pay MORE than the amount of the cruise - like she's a nanny or something). I never asked what was said, and I hate my daughter is once again in the middle of this garbage. This morning I decided to not let her go. It's been booked (not that my "mother" bothered to check with me on dates, length of cruise, destination, etc.). I don't want her to lose money (not that that's an issue for her), and I don't want to overreact. I also don't want my daughter to be sad and miserable about it, mad at me about it, and/or feel she's suffering because of my issues. I don't know what to do. If she had bothered to respect my position as the mother, I could have let her know that we may be moving out of state the week before the date my daughter "thinks", but can't remember, the cruise starts. Go or not go, go or not go...

I realize my no contact doesn't seem to work without bleeding all over my daughter. I don't know what to do.

whatisnormal (81) 06 May 2009 11:15 AM

KELDUBS78, I am sorry to say that, at least in my own experience, once the grounded parent is gone, there is absolutely no shield, or perceived shield, left between the NM and you. Additionally there is that added resentment you will feel towards your NM for not making his final days about your dad instead of herself, not to mention the natural grief you will feel over his passing. I became pretty protective of my dad the more vulnerable he became from the cancer, and so like you I was sensitive to my mom's treatment of him. I don't think I was educated enough yet about what was actually going on with my mom but I do know that some of the behaviors she exhibited during his illness really annoyed and sometimes disgusted me.

Something that will always stick with me is how she used his hospital stays to go out to eat in what she perceived to be nice restaurants...they were chains, but in her mind they were fancy I guess because they had neon signs and dead animal heads hanging on the walls. My dad was never really interested in a restaurant that didn't have a buffet and salad bar, so I guess my mom was just taking the opportunity to "live it up" while she could. I always viewed meals while he was in the hospital as a way of sustaining myself really quickly so that I could get back to his bed side. It made me really anxious to be away from his room, let alone the hospital all together...but you could tell she was having a ball being away. It wasn't just the relief of being away from the cancer which I am sure is very stressful to deal with day to day...it was more like elation. She seemed to view it as an opportunity to pamper herself and maybe also to quench her thirsty curiosity about how "the other side" lived. I don't even know why I agreed to go, other than back then I still had a problem saying no.

It does get ugly. I am not sure what I would have done differently had I recognized the actual disorder at the time of my dad's passing. Back then, I was still trying to be the dutiful daughter, helping my mom with the administrative tasks of handling the estate and all of her creditors (I say "her" creditors because she hid most of the debt from my dad). It was a nightmare, but without the experience, I wouldn't have been able to come to the conclusions I have about her, and consequently certain aspects of my upbringing. It was a very stressful time without a doubt and I do wish you much luck as you deal with your father's illness and your mother's issues.

whatisnormal (81) 06 May 2009 12:08 PM

CBREEZE, hi! Wow, things seem, as your daughter put it, "interesting" in your life right now. I am so sorry you are having to deal with this. GRIZELDA is most likely the better one to comment having dealt with teenagers already, and having gone NC with her NM. However, here is an inexperienced outsider's perspective for what it is worth....

First off, I will start by saying that you seem like a very proud mom of a lovely young lady. Still, the teens years are such a tough time, especially for girls. That makes it a very tough time for the moms of those young girls!! I know you just want to protect your daughter and keep her well. It really sounds like you making great efforts to do that. She may not always be happy with your decisions...in fact it may even be a cosmic rule that teens always disagree with their parents' decisions. You may not get the thumbs up while she is still in her teens but she will appreciate your efforts when she is older, especially if she has children of her own someday.

I definitely agree that saying no to the cruise is appropriate. I would not trust your NM to take your daughter out in the open sea, especially now that you have raised the stakes for your NM by standing up for yourself. I would be skeptical of her motivation for suddenly wanting to take your daughter on a cruise.

As for whether your mom loses money on the deal, that is really on her. SHE will be met with the consequences of HER actions. It's ok to feel badly (just not for too long!) for her but I wouldn't try to help her avert the loss in any way. It's up to her to fix if it can be fixed at this point...if she loses money, it will be like the financial guru Dave Ramsey says, she will be paying her "stupid tax". It really wasn't a bright thing for her to do without checking with you first.

The decision to include your daughter in the NC is a tricky one. I logically can only see it working if there is no contact from either you or your daughter, but I haven't embarked on this stage of the game just yet, so I cannot comment from personal experience. I know I don't particularly want my son exposed to my mom in any great amount. I would never allow him to be alone with her...I know the impressions that were made on me as a child in my maternal grandmother's care, and I don't want to take even the slightest chance that the same experiences may be passed along to my son. Have you asked your daughter how she feels about spending time with your mom? Does she enjoy your "mom" or the things your mom does for her, as in material things? I think it is pretty typical of any teenager to be lured in by the material things..."things" are tough to resist at that age, esp. the things that can make you seem cooler to your peers. Material things were among the tools my mom's mom used on me while I was growing up.... I think that is one of the reasons she is so baffled by the way my brother and I don't want to be around her now. I guess in her mind she took me to Disney World when I was four and so now I either owe her something in return, or she just basically thought she bought me at that point and was genuinely shocked to one day find out that she doesn't own me (or my thoughts). I actually think she and my mom have each at certain points banged their heads against the wall trying to figure out my price.

Good luck, as I know it is likely to get even tougher for you in the days ahead. Hopefully the tide will turn soon, though, and you will continue to gain momentum in the right direction.

Oh, btw, the fact that you wrote you may be moving out of state was not lost on me...is that a strong possibility? If so, that may be more helpful than anything...you may be able to bow out a bit more gracefully and avoid at least some of the uncomfortable wrath and confrontation.

keldubs78 (20) 06 May 2009 12:26 PM

WHATISNORMAL - I am sorry about the loss of your father. I fully expect the situation to only get worse as time goes on. I pray that my mother goes before he does for a variety of reasons. The main one is so HE can have some peace in his life before he dies. I don't know how I am going to handle not only the grief over losing him (should he go first) but also the resentment I will feel toward her for her behavior not only toward the end but throughout their marriage and over my lifetime. The thought literally makes me sick. She has no ability to be independent and there will be no choice but to assist her through settling the estate. She won't know what to do and emotionally will be a wreck (again, because she will be mostly concerned about what she's going to do now not because she will be grieving my father or missing him).

I think the clarity I have about the situation comes through almost 2 years of therapy where my therapist has done a fantastic job of helping me figure out that my mother has NPD. I think I go back and forth between accepting that fact and at times wanting to defend her behavior (oddly enough). My mom has done an excellent job of knowing how to make me feel guilted into playing into her games.

Part of the problem is that her ways of manipulating are more subtle. They are comments here and there and just a general way she makes every situation uncomfortable without really even DOING anything - just by being her. She would NEVER go out to a nice dinner while my dad lie in the hospital because she is way too concerned about what others would think of her for doing something like that. She would find other ways of making it about her though all while sitting there and pretending to be a devoted wife. She would likely break down and make a big deal about how she can't handle the situation, leaving me to be the adult once again and help HER through the situation.

At times I contemplate cutting her out but I will not do that while my father is still around. She would only make his life more miserable because of it. My therapist thinks I need to let go of my protectiveness over him because he is an adult and has made the decision to stay in this marriage despite it all. I see that point however, I have not reached a point where I can do that especially because I am the only child and I feel that it all falls on me.

In any case, it's good to get this all written out and to read others' experiences with similar situations.

Psychologist2B (75) 06 May 2009 02:03 PM

CBreeze, going on what you have posted, it sure sounds like a wise decision to me to not let this cruise thing happen. You don't want to throw your daughter to the lions, and that may be what happens on an extended visit. Sometimes NMs view their granddaughters as extensions of themselves too, although sometimes that favor is reserved for the daughters. (My mother in law is a NM as well as my own, and actually my mother in law behaves much worse ... it's just that I don't care as much because she never built a relationship with me in the first place). My mother in law treats one of her granddaughters really badly too, but not all of them. So you have to look at the possibilities of how your daughter will be treated. In my case, my daughter doesn't want to be with my own mother because of her hypercritical treatment, but right now my mother in law (who lives 5 hours away from us) is her favored grandma, because she hasn't borne the brunt of the other grandma's narcissism (yet). This annoys me because I personally have taken a lot of garbage over the years from my mother in law too, but I guess it's a blessing she (so far) treats my daughter nicely. I have noticed that my kids though pick up on the narcissism eventually and loosen the ties of their own accord.

Beth McHugh (13211) 07 May 2009 06:18 PM

Just a quick note here on the importance of the non-NPD parent in a marriage. I will write a blog on this issue since it is an important one, but many adult children of NPD parents get blinded by the behaviors of the narcissist and do not see the contribution to the family dysfunction by the non NPD spouse. But more on this later! Best wishes, Beth

whatisnormal (81) 08 May 2009 08:59 AM

Thanks very much, Beth. I will look forward to reading. My parents actually had a pretty strained relationship most of the time, and I recognize that some of that is attributed to my dad. Having dealt with my mom though without him in the mix makes me wonder how even a total saint could have survived such a seemingly one sided marriage, esp. one where your MIL also has NPD. Perhaps though more of the dysfunction lies on his shoulders than I think.

I will say when I was younger, say pre-teen to a teen, I thought my dad was "the bad guy" because he implemented rules and standards. My mom rebells against rules and structure...she just want to do what she feels like when she feels like it. That kind of behavior is pretty appealing to an adolescent...you tend to prefer the less strict parent, and maybe even resent the parent that actually set curfews and the like (as an adult, I now appreciate having had such rules!)...now I know my mom wasn't necessarily less strict, she was unplugged because she really just didn't care. She instilled rules sometimes, but they were very inconsistent and odd, generally catering to some whim she was caught up in at the moment. But, mmm, she was so nasty about my reactions when she did spring a "new rule" into play.

As you may imagine my parents fought often, when they were both actually home at the same times. Sometimes they even invoked the silent treatment for long periods of times (months). I got to be the "go tell your mom" or "go tell your dad" go between on several occasions. I moved in with my dad's parents during my junior year of high school...I had to get away from being shocked awake every Saturday morning by the loud yelling at the other end of the house. It actually turned out to be a positive for my relationship with my dad, even though he was really hurt and mad at me for doing it...I stil don't even know why he let me do it. He could have easily yanked me back home. I ended up seeing him more at my grandma's house than I would have at home. He spent a lot of time with my grandpa helping work on cars in my grandpa's shop. I am not sure if he was spending time WITH his parents, or just AWAY from my mom.

I will look forward to reading your thoughts on the non-NPD spouse's role in the marriage...I think that's a new layer that I hadn't given much thought until now. I've definitely spent more time thinking about my mom, and before that thinking about her mom...my first revelations were of her mom's hold on her...thoughts about that really consumed me almost immediately after my dad died because her NM scooped her right up and, what felt like, away from me even before my dad's wake.

Grizelda (241) 08 May 2009 07:03 PM

Wow - there are so many new posts here and I've been mesmerized by each one. I needed new input - it all helps so much!! - esp. because I've been feeling weird/anxious as NC wears on (since Feb.) I find I'm having nightmares about not doing what people expect of me and then I have to face their disapproval (and my panic)! (not usually my mom in the dreams but other people, who I guess are "stand-ins") I'm always SO relieved to wake up to get free from being laid into for being "a bad person." (so many flash-backs of my mother's rage and manipulative tantrums)

I can't wait for your book, Beth - I've tried very hard to understand your major points about the necessity of grieving and getting past the anger. The conscious part of my brain keeps insisting that no matter the guilt, it's still SO SO much better than the indignant rage and really, the TERROR I've habitually felt when I was in contact w/NM. But it's hard to be a "bad girl" (read = disobedient to my bossy mother) after a lifetime of training. But at this point, I feel I've GOT to take advantage of this one chance to break free - or else give up any chance of a good life ever again - or at least till she dies.

I believe that I am constitutionally INCAPABLE of ever calmly dealing with her, standing up for myself, or working out "limits" with her. I'm pretty much a wimp with EVERYbody and I can never argue back, even when taken obvious advantage of -- but with her?!? It's ridiculous - and it's hopeless. Oh, and I KNOW she can't change. There wasn't another personality there BEFORE the greedy one who'll do anything to get her way - I think she's been this way since toddlerhood and there's no "better nature" under there.

Anyway, I wonder if my persistent wimp-hood comes from being a victim of a bully my whole life? Like in her case, can it even be done to change MY personality from toddlerhood, which is cowering and feeling horrifically ashamed when I don't do exactly what she says, and BE exactly who she wants me to be, lest hailfire and brimstone come flying at me from her face and mouth, and when I was a child, from her slapping my face and legs in rage?

Well, enough self-indulgent pity-potting, for the moment anyway -- I'd like to address everyone's posts but I'll start a new post because this would get ridiculously long otherwise! Speaking to CBreeze's point -- I too feel like an N myself, posting here, always about ME ME ME, and being haughty enough to offer advice when I know I'm not qualified - but otoh, it's so hard for me to not at least TRY to help when I read your posts, even though I know I don't have much to offer!

Grizelda (241) 08 May 2009 07:36 PM

CBREEZE -- Your daughter and the cruise!! Oh my what a mess. When I read your mother wanted extra payment for being a nanny - I thought, there's an N for you! - always greedy & looking for an angle to take advantage of. You know what? I think your mother should pay those young vibrant fun teen girls (assuming your daughter took a friend) for being wonderful COMPANIONS for a boring old lady on a cruise. Sheesh! And I think you're right to follow your instincts and not let her go, to be all alone with your NM on a ship - it's hard enough to get along with NICE people when you're together too much :) Oh, and your arguing back and her having a fit (about picking the day for the passport) reminds me SO much of my NM. I read that when they do that (or when they resort to name-calling and put-downs), you're actually getting to them!, but it's hard to take any solace from that when you're on the receiving end. I wish you COURAGE and STRENGTH in standing up to her - it's the right thing for YOU and your family, even when it's hard, imo.

KELDUB and WHATISNORMAL -- your points really RANG OUT for me about NM's giving you things but making such a ludicrously HUGE deal about it! The book "Emotional Vampires" has the quote: "Beware of vampires bearing gifts. They usually have big sticky strings attached." My mom is always very loudly/ostentatiously giving gifts and "favors" - wanting HUGE amounts of notice and gratitude, and then later, PAYBACK. She can catalog nearly every gift I've ever gotten from her (and she exaggerates them as well!) She often asks for things BACK. It's ridiculous! Anyway, needless to say, it's a way for her to say, "YOU OWE ME!" and thus, another way to CONTROL, imo.

KELDUB: I'm an only child too, and in some ways it's harder - but then, I don't have to face rejection from a sib who sides w/mom - and in my case, my mom isolated me so much from her whole family, I'm not really losing anybody else with NC, so there's one silver lining. Hope you have some, too! And about the envy! Oh mercy - whenever a person shows up, I swear my mom studies them for something to envy - then it's some snide comment later, "She was really showing off with that designer suit and fancy jewelry - she thinks she's better than everybody!" (and I'm always like, HUH? That lady was sweet!) etc etc. -- Oh another way I'm lucky, my gran was a wimp and my mom bullied her, just like me, and even convinced her to disinherit her sibs!! But having no dad or sibs, I'm so grateful for my gran as she's the only person who loved me growing up - but I can't imagine seeing this going back generations. I'm happy for all you who had loving dads and other close family members - but at least I had a loving grandma. Where would we have been with NO ONE to offer unconditional acceptance/love ??

FRASER - I'm so sorry for all you've gone through. I think a lot of us here can identify. I still have anger and rage crop up, I can't imagine it ever completely going away - but maybe I need it to stay FIRM about taking my life back! When it acts up, I hit the books and this site and others like it especially hard, and it eases up for a while. Good luck!!

PSYCH2B - I love your point about NM's seeing daughters esp. as extensions, and only sometimes granddaughters. My sons, 20 and 17, I think are probably home-free, esp. as they always tell me that they can't really have a conversation with my mother - she just can't really LISTEN to anyone. I know I should feel sorry for her, and maybe that'll come, but in the meantime, I think it protects my kids from her - they're young and don't have much inclination or time for sitting around an oldster anyway, and so, I'm lucky in that way. If they were little, her being their only living grandparent, it would have been hard to go NC, but now, I think they can handle it. She was always miles away when they were little, so never an frequent presence - and she had other people in her life so I wasn't the bullseye for her rage. Oh, and I truly think if the parents are on to the grandparents, and can explain what they think is going on (NPD), then the kids have a huge advantage that we didn't have, not knowing what the HELL was going on!

Take care everyone, and look after yourself! You all DO deserve respect and kind treatment from everyone, even your mothers. Everyone does! Good luck!! And thanks for sharing your stories - you've helped me more than you can know.

Psychologist2B (75) 09 May 2009 03:27 PM

I want to emphasize that as I participate in this blog, it is purely on a personal basis. Beth is the person that is truly knowledgeable on this subject. However, I am lucky in that I have access to a lot of professional literature aimed at therapists/psychologists/etc. that has helped me a lot. And the main thing that sticks out as how to tell you are NOT a narcissist yourself: You have the ability to reflect upon your own actions. Sometimes you may be selfish because you are part of the human race, but you have the ability to accept feedback and consider it if others tell you something negative about yourself. Most of the time children of narcissists seem to have not only the ability to consider it, but they automatically assume if somebody criticizes them, that other person is right! I'll be honest --- for years I probably acted like my NM in certain situations, because it had been drilled into my head that there was only one way to do things --- her way. It's not that I thought so much of myself, it's that I honestly had trouble considering ideas that she probably would not have approved of. The interesting thing is, as I moved into adulthood and still had this need to try to make only the moves Mom would approve of, I discovered that she didn't even know what the heck she thought about things. There are more examples of this than I can relate here. I adopted my daughter from an orphanage, she had intense emotional and behavioral problems, and this situation brought my mother's weirdnesses squarely to the forefront. She would tell me one thing one time, and another thing the next, about how to parent this emotionally disturbed child. Every thing she said, she said it like it was the gospel truth --- and didn't seem to remember that she was saying the opposite of what she said yesterday. Seeing her flip-flop so extremely when she had always presented herself as all-knowing --- that was the first time I clearly saw there was some weird stuff going on here.

All of this to say --- we all have opinions, we all are more or less self-centered, and we all can be wrong. Narcissists just don't see themselves realistically at all. They think they are perfect. Reading this blog has made me realize that there are many levels of severity, and therefore many levels of damage done to daughters and sons.

selfresponsible (50) 09 May 2009 04:12 PM

Grizelda:

Thanks so much for your carefully thought out response concerning my not accepting my NMom's Power of Attorney. Everything you've said strengthens my resolve as I prepare to tell her "no" sometime in the very near future. It strongly supports my own reasons when I hear someone else say them with conviction. My therapist is helping me a great deal in trusing my own perceptions and decisions, too. Thank you so so much for your words and thoughts. I have repeated them in my head many times since you wrote them. God Bless! And thank you everybody else for all your genius, brilliant posts! I can commiserate with every single one of you from deep down to my toes. You are all awesome! And for those of you who are moms - Happy Mom's Day! I'm sure you deserve it even more than any mom who never had to struggle with her own self-doubts because of her own hurtful mother. Love ya!

Grizelda (241) 10 May 2009 12:49 PM

Have we all made it through Mother's Day pretty much intact? Whewwww - I'd love to hear how some of you have handled it!

Thanks, self! You are SO sweet. I do hope you'll let us know how it turns out with your mom, esp. the PoA situation. Please take care of yourself as you walk over eggshells (or maybe I should say glass shards) as you try to cope with this mess. It wouldn't be easy for ANYBODY!

And psych! Reading what you said made me remember the shock of recognition when I first read this from Joanna Ashmun's site - from the "Traits" section (and also reminded me of her "Now We Are 6" essay):

"The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). When you ask them which one they mean, they'll deny ever saying the first one..."

Sometimes I think it sounds like NPD is a form of mental retardation, that includes emotional/moral retardation, where they just stopped developing somewhere between ages 3 and 6, and just aren't capable of advancing any further! (this is just me wondering, not diagnosing or anything - I just stand in AWE at all the things that others have figured out and lovingly shared with us fellow victims.) Nothing on earth could ever have helped me as much as the explanations and advice I've gotten from Beth and all of you here, and the others online and in books. We truly live in a lucky time!! Imagine the millions of other victims who NEVER had a chance to get an inkling that it wasn't their fault but it was their mother's!! (or father's or spouse's or sibling's or boss's, etc)

Beth McHugh (13211) 10 May 2009 06:00 PM

It is true that a person suffering from NPD looks like an adult, but has the emotional age of about a 4 year old, at best. Remembering this may help you in your dealings with narcissists. Age does not bring maturity in this case! Best wishes, Beth

Grizelda (241) 10 May 2009 11:51 PM

Oh dear - I feel like a sheepish defector and I haven't done anything YET - but my mother called and left me a message saying Happy Mother's Day and saying she loved me and wishes I could have been with my hubby & sons who took her out to lunch today.

Anyway, she'll prob. be furious that I didn't call her back (and prob. won't tomorrow) but I'm thinking of sending her this letter and giving "limits" at least one try (I wrote before asking for them and she threw a massive hissy fit and I've been NC since then - Feb.). Anyway, what do you guys think -- being the massive pleaser/worrier, I feel I have to do something tomorrow -- either get this in the mail by 6pm or call, for fear of being rude (yeah I know - told ya I was a massive WIMP!!!). Anyway here it is:

"I appreciate your friendly message on Mother's Day - thank you! And I hope you had a happy day, as well. I'm sorry but I'm just not ready to handle this situation in a phone call or visit. I'm still trying to work through it. I know it's rude and I'm sorry about that, but I'm very fragile right now.

There has to be a change in the "power ratios" of our relationship. I feel that you have often bullied me and won't take 'no' for an answer to any request without a fight or a tantrum, and I just can't handle the stress of it. I don't feel that I should have to do everything I'm ordered to do - or that I should have to argue to defend my right to disagree with you.

I think I was on the right track in demanding "limits" and "boundaries" - and to establish clear calm ways of deciding what I am willing to do without having to fight about it. It's what I've learned in talking to the psychologist, reading many books and online stuff.

Why isn't it enough? You told [my husband] you thought I'd be upset if [my 20-y-o son] did such a thing to me. I promise you I WOULDN'T. I would immediately be willing to consider that I had been unreasonable, had hurt and upset him, and I would be anxious to make his life better. I'd be hopeful that he would still be willing to let me be a part of his life, on HIS terms, whatever they were.

This is just what I need, for the sake of my health and my stress level - I need a feeling of control over my life - and I believe I deserve to have that. And so, before we move forward in any way, I need you to tell me if you're willing to go along with:

One get-together a month, at my house.

And one other thing per month, that you ask for at least a day ahead - a restaurant dinner, a chauffeuring to something, a concert, whatever -- that I have time to consider over night - and get back to you the next day with my decision, which might include an alternative suggestion or even a refusal.

I have hardly any energy, and I think this amount is about right for me to maintain my health and peace of mind. I also can't handle confrontations or having to make on-the-spot decisions - I panic, get upset, spend sleepless nights afterwards, etc.

Maybe we can resume a relationship, IF the stress can be reduced, and it just can't be reduced if I don't have a sense of CONTROL over my life.

Do take care - I wish you well - and I look forward to hearing your response."

I promise to check back in before mailing, in case anyone wants to advise me! (I'm also having my husband and two sons give their opinions first)

whatisnormal (81) 11 May 2009 08:04 AM

GRIZELDA, I don't think you are a wimp at all! What you are doing takes such courage...sometimes we have accomplished something really substantial but we fail to give ourselves credit. Maybe it is humility or maybe it is just because life is moving by us so quickly that we just don't recognize it as we buzz on to the next thing, but I do hope that you take some time to deliberately celebrate your accomplishments where your NM and decision to go NC are concerned. You sound to me to be quite a strong lady and the fact that you have come such a long way in your ordeal is undeniable!

Now on to the call from your NM and your question of responding or not. I personally would not respond at all for a few reasons. First I think it would under-mind the power you have taken for yourself, that you rightfully deserve. Secondly, it sounds as though you would be responding out of guilt or fear...guilt over not responding to someone who you feel has reached out to you (which I'm not certain NM's do w/out a self serving angle), and fear of being rude (or, i.e. a "bad" girl). A dear friend of mine advised me once that the strongest decisions are made out of faith rather than fear.

I think that by not responding you are not being rude, you are being consistent and true to what you have set out to do...it would only be rude if you weren't' acting out of self preservation. You aren't snubbing your NM, you are just not allowing her to pluck back the reins of control from your grip. I don't honestly think any normal person could perceive you as rude...you come across as a very sweet and enormously giving lady. You are very aware of others and their feelings...at least on this post, I have only observed you reaching out consistently with kindness.

Looking at this scenario from the backdrop of my own NM, I would actually see this as a manipulation and a ploy to "run the game" on her part...she forced you to have contact with her on Mother's Day. To me, that disrespects you and your ideas about how you have chosen to conduct your life.

There are so many emotions running about on Mother's Day esp. for daughters of NM's. I would probably say at the very least to give it a few days before you act upon anything, and see how you feel about responding in a week or two or three. There is no time line since you are already NC, and it's not really necessary to worry about etiquette, only your ultimate own well being. I think you are wise to seek the counsel of your husband and son...they know the details of your situation intimately. You may even want to play it out mentally in your mind first, as to what would happen down the road if you did send the note. You know your mom...you can probably predict any future actions on her part with flawless accuracy by now. History is a great predictor...at least with my NM. There are few mysteries about her patterns of behavior so far...her life generally plays out like a broken record, repeating itself over and over and over. It creates a whirlpool effect for those of us unfortunate to be caught up in her drama...I still have my big toe in the whirlpool, ok, maybe I am still in up to my ankle (ok, my knee?), but my goal is to eventually find my way out to calmer seas. I wish you much luck in making your decision...no matter which way you decide to go, your actions are valid because they are based upon YOUR thoughtfulness and desire to do what is right. You take care of YOURSELF, and you will be taking care of everyone involved!! Good luck!!!

Thanks to all who have sent well wishes to the moms on this post for Mother's Day. I hope you all had a wonderful day celebrating with your families. My family and I visited with my MIL...she sees her other grandchildren daily so her house has all of the makings of a fun grandma's house...sand table, swings, slides, toys, toys and more toys. My son had a blast which was wonderful to see.

I personally did not call my mom and she did not call me. I think for the most part my mom is satisfied as long as society thinks she has a close relationship with her children and grandchildren. The more she can do to fly under the radar where we all are concerned I think the better in her mind-she certainly does not want us to expect anything from her. That way, too, anything she does give is ALWAYS icing on the cake...so she is ALWAYS going above and beyond. It's not too tough to outdo yourself when your status quo is zilch. As long as she can get the attention from the title, she doesn't necessarily desire being bothered with any of its corresponding duties! I am pretty certain that we bore her to no end unless we are bailing her out from her then current mess...even then she is only plugged in minimally, and most certainly temporarily, in order to drain us of what she needs at that moment. I did send a card which was a struggle because they just don't make cards fitting for NM's.

On a happier, lighter note, my dad's mom did call last evening to wish me a happy Mother's Day...she beat me to the punch, as I had a particularly tough time getting the little one to sleep after such a stimulating day. She was so sweet, which is nothing at all unusual for her. She made me feel special and loved, just as she always has. We talked about my dad because it was also his birthday...he was actually born on Mother's Day. I know it must have been an especially tough day for her. But we had a nice time remembering, and I think we lifted each other up, probably in ways neither of us could even comprehend about the other. It was ultimately a perfect way to end a day that seems to hold such mixed meanings.

Psychologist2B (75) 11 May 2009 10:25 AM

How did I go this long without realizing how bad off she is? It's like once I recognized some narcissistic signs, the floodgates opened. Yikes! The longer it goes, the worse it seems. Did I really go my whole life without really challenging her?

Psychologist2B (75) 11 May 2009 10:26 AM

Clarifying my last post: I am not responding to anybody else's post, those were just musings about my own mom. I just had one of those twilight zone encounters with her.

Grizelda (241) 11 May 2009 11:43 AM

Thanks so much, WhatisNormal! I think I've at least calmed down to the point that I can take more time to figure out what to do. It's ridiculous to feel so terrified and put on the spot - but I realize ALL that is coming from ME - I have the right to think about what to do and take my time. It's probably the first step to conquer in getting out from under someone else's control. Mercy. I've forgotten my own supposedly new credo -- Guilt is better than Rage (or Terror.)

What a lovely day for you - that's wonderful! It sounds like you've reached the right balance with your NM, without guilt or confusion. I knew when my mother said she was moving to live in my city that it would be IMPOSSIBLE. I spent hours on the 'net, looking up ways to change my name and places to run off to, lol. I knew I wouldn't - I knew I couldn't! My family's here - I've got great friends - but as Anna Valerious said, any contact = pain and chaos in your life. Still, the contact before was so intermittent, I usually felt safe. Now, never. I have trouble with the guilt - and thus, the panic and the possible letter and an attempt at boundaries, that I never got to try because she threw the hissy fit and wild efforts to control things the last time I asked.

So yeah, I'm pretty dense to think anything good could come out of trying again. Anyway, hopefully I won't keep hogging this forum with my panic of the day, sheesh...

It was lovely to hear about your GREAT relationship with your MIL! It just seems such common sense -- even for a 6 year old!! -- to realize that if you're just nice to people instead of worrying about power and winning and all that -- life works out great. It's the simplest thing in the world to figure out, isn't it?? I guess I'll never really understand how this comes about and continues in anyone's life -- this fake childish adversarial life-destructive state of being.

And the floodgates are pretty astonishing, Psych2B. Part of me wonders how ANYbody figured it out though - I don't think in a million years it would have dawned on me to step outside the crucible and be objective about it - it's so relentless and ever-present and when you grow up in it, it just completely engulfs you! Whew - anyway, thanks again for the advice, whatisnormal - I'm going to slow down and regroup before I do anything!

skeletonmom (20) 11 May 2009 08:54 PM

I am a 39 year old wife and mother...and have finally had enough of my narcissistic mother. For several years I had held her at arms length, living states away so our family would not be immersed in her mind games and drama, keeping limited correspondance, etc.

After a soul searching discussion with my wonderful, understanding and loving hubby, I realized "what the heck am I actually holding on to?". Mom and I dont really have a relationship. She hasnt ever visited her 12 year old granddaughter since she was born, never calls her and Mom only calls/emails me to blab about herself. Plus, her behavior is becoming more erratic and weird, and honestly, I dont want to be responsible for it-I went thru enough of her hijinks when I was younger trying to raise my sister who was 13 years younger and take care of my Mom. And the hateful, hurtful messed up stuff she pulled on me the past 39 years...I no longer hurt from it...I am actually kinda numb and tired of it all.

It stops now. I am getting off this crazy demented clownmobile, and cutting her off for good. Life is too short-stick a fork in me-I'm done.

Just needed to get that off my chest. Reading many of the posts here has helped, too. I can relate to many of them and it just helps reinforce me making this life changing decision. Thanks, everyone!!!

PS-is it wrong for me to not feel any kinship for my mom anymore? I am certainly not emotionally upset about her and her behavior. Its more like logically realizing the situation and wanting to make a lasting change...and finally getting it thru my head that Mom never will...

Grizelda (241) 12 May 2009 09:47 AM

Never visiting her granddaughter?!?! Wow. I think you're doing the right thing - and of course, it isn't wrong to feel as you do. It's smart! Be glad your daughter didn't have to go through all you did.

Psychologist2B (75) 12 May 2009 01:50 PM

Skeletonmom, The only thing I can say in answer to your question, "Is it wrong not to feel any kinship with my mom?" is a saying we have among those of us who adopted children: Being Mom is not a title like "queen". Being Mom is a job. If you are somebody's "real Mom" you are the one that did the job, not the one that gave birth. So, just because a woman gave birth to you --- even if she never provided you with the grace of handing you over to another woman capable of being your "real Mom" --- doesn't make her real.

Also, I have to insert because my psychology education compels me ... feelings can't be wrong. They just are. You can't change them just by wishing them away. We can do bad things in response to our feelings but our feelings just are.

skeletonmom (20) 12 May 2009 08:29 PM

Grizelda, no my mom has NEVER visited her granddaughter. When I tried to get her to visit (this is when I lived in FL-she lives in MI) I even told her I would pay for tickets to fly, take a train, etc. She said her home is in MI and that she wouldnt leave it and that she was the kind of grandmother who would send her granddaughter stuff. She hasnt even really done even that. I am not looking for gifts or money for my girl, but, it would have been nice if she would consistantly call or send my daughter a card. Some kind of correspondance. Then mom would remark that it was too bad that I am so far away. Why, mom? You would give a flip if we were closer? I think not...unless it was to her advantage. I am not angry, but I know how she operates...and it is really pathetic.

Spent an hour on the phone with my aunt (who also lives in MI, and does keep in touch, etc.) and we spent most of it talking about mom (her sister). We still cannot wrap our minds around all of mom's antics. Logic totally defies it. She contradicts herself constantly. And she does selfish stuff that more and more is getting her into trouble and cutting off her nose to spite her face. Really stupid decisions, and she doesnt even notice. Both of us honestly dont know how and where it is going to end. Will she ultimately wind up penniless on the streets (she cannot keep jobs and has gone thru so many that she is running out of options in her local area)? Will she eventually go over the edge enough that we need to commit her (she lives in a fantasy land of her own making)? Both of us dont want to get sucked into it. My aunt is more and more trying to keep her distance from the situation, too. Well, and because mom likes to stir the s*%t pot and make up stuff about everyone that isnt even true. Drama for my mama...

Its like a bad episode of Jerry Springer and Cops, with a dash of Mad TV. LOL Groan....

Psych2B-thank you. Griz-hang in there. Keep your contact minimal. Your story sounded alot like mine when I moved away from home, married and knew I would be visiting. And the same rules and control you need ALSO applies to non visits-phone calls, emails, all contact. You can be as understanding and objective as possible, BUT SHE IS NEVER GONNA BE LOGICAL OR FAIR. So, dont even worry about it. Expect she will be a pill. Hell, make it a game. Place dollar bets with your spouse to see what depths she will stoop to-maybe one of you will make some extra cash...LOL. Seriously, find a safe center within yourself, so that when she starts flingin' poo, it wont stick to you. Breathe...ohhhhhmmmmm.....

Grizelda (241) 12 May 2009 10:16 PM

That's some great advice, Skeletonmom. I'm hoping that even if there's contact, things we'll never be what they were. I've screamed that the emperor has no clothes and it was like a "rule" that I couldn't speak to the cause of all the discord. Well, till several years ago, I didn't KNOW the cause, so many stars have aligned for me, even if it's fits and starts for a while. Knowledge is POWER - and once unveiled, I don't think ANY of us could ever forget what we've found out!! I can't ever thank the revealers enough - one of the greatest gifts of my life !

whatisnormal (81) 13 May 2009 06:30 AM

Wow, how I can relate...on so many levels! My mom has visited a couple of times, but only because we were a pit stop along a trip for her mom and her, and she was her mom's chauffeur...her mom actually seeks out visitation with my son for some reason, but my mom doesn't. I started to notice how my mom interacts with my son at family gatherings, though, how she cannot say enough times, or loudly enough that she talks to him on the phone all the time...she doesn't really, but that's her spin on the maybe one or two times it happened. You can look at their interaction and tell he has no clue who she is. My mom doesn't even bother herself when we are in her town and she could drive 20 or 30 minutes to the hotel to see him. She does send him stuff by mail...sometimes ok stuff, but usually inappropriate or stuff that he's allergic to. She will say "oh, I thought about it after I sent it that I probably shouldn't have sent a stuffed animal." And then what does she send the next time...a stuffed animal. My son has food and other allergies...we went in for Easter and saw her at her mom's house...luckily I checked the eggs b/f giving them to my son to open...she had put candies in one. I don't think she really had set out to harm him...she was just consumed with thinking about what a cute basket she was making, and patting herself on the back.

I wish I could talk to one of her siblings...oh how I wish! I really want to talk to my mom's brother, but I am almost certain he is under their mom's spell as well. In the first couple of years after my dad died, my mom's mom guilted him into sending my mom $ each month, between $100 and $150. For one I think she wanted my mom to be able to afford to go out shopping and to dinners with her as my mom is her NS or slave (I'm not sure if those things are one in the same)...and for two I think she wanted to emphasize the worthlessness of my father having left my mom in such financial hardship (couldn't possibly be my mom's fault in any way for spending every penny, applying for and charging up credit cards behind his back, etc.). Eventually one of his checks bounced and I was able somehow to convince her that he is no better off than her and she should stop treating her brother like a bank. I have no clue how she was able to wrap her brain around it and actually let go of the extra $...maybe she didn't and was just trying to shut me up about it.

I can see too that my mom is going to find herself penniless, she is also jobless, and her diabetes is actually getting worse due to her indulgent lifestyle...all of which will be my fault when it comes to a head, and not my mom's fault in the least. I guess I am like you...I know something is coming but I just don't know what, or how bad it is going to be. It is at that point that I am at a loss as to how to handle things.... My husband says he fully expects an irate call from my mom's mom or someone in her camp soon...my mom has always bent the ear of others (poor me, please rescue me stories), and had them chastise whomever is wronging her. The thing with her mom is that no matter what my brother and I do, even if we did everything 100% right, we would still be worthless, and her mom would tell us so. Still we are to show up at family functions and smile like life is just peachy. It is all about appearance...not substance. I guess that is why gatherings in that family are so quiet. No one can say anything because it may be the wrong thing. Well, that's not really true...my uncles seem to be ok saying what is on their minds...and I've even heard a curse word or two out of one of them. I am surprised the walls didn't crack.

My mom's mom is scrappy when she needs to be and if she sees her NS (i.e. my mom) disappearing or diminishing in any way, her claws will come out. I have no doubt there is going to be drama, probably within the year. The things I worry about are fall out from extended family who will only know the details from the NM's perspectives, and will likely see my mom as victim and me as deserter. And I forsee, at least from her mom's angle, some sort of vengence being sought at that point. That's what worries me....

As for feelings of kinship, the only relationship I feel anymore with my mom is that of host and parasite...I think you may guess who is who...and the more I continue to distance myself, the more even that is starting to fade away into nothing. It's tough to stay connected with someone when you are the only one holding on...my mom hasn't been holding on to me, well, probably ever. It was always me calling her (unless I could be of some service to her...i.e. take her somewhere or deal with one of her creditors), and hearing her disinterest on the other end. Now that I have stopped calling her, the calls have stopped all together. To be honest, I not only don't miss them, but I am less agitated. I still feel anxious when the phone rings, and I am anticipating the fall out...so, we'll see what happens.

skeletonmom (20) 13 May 2009 12:45 PM

Hey, Whatis-yes, isnt the silence delicious?!

I think that was the point at which I became more distanced from the situation. Last year my mother finally called (my aunt and I wondered when she would finally call me for this) for money because she could not hold a job and would "lose her home and might wind up on the streets". My mother is good at pissing away money and not looking for employment until the eleventh hour when things get desperate. And she never considers a savings account for emergencies...anyway, I digress-I told mommy that I wouldnt lend her any money. Did this by email because who wants to be screamed at on the phone? Took her a day or two and the hateful, pitiful email came. Then silence for 6 months. Oh happy day. I got to experience peace. And started to heal some. Of course mom sucked the money from someone else (one friend and one family member to the tune of $3,000 between the two) and went on with her life.

Of course, I did know eventually she would contact me again...at some point. Mom sticks to me like a booger on a finger. But, I realized that she wasnt going to die without my help. And I realized that even though she was hateful for not getting what she wanted, she needed me more than I needed her. And that need had nothing to do with a healthy, loving, mutual relationship that every living thing craves and needs to properly survive. Seems simple, but, it was the revelation that I needed to start pulling away and claiming my life. And when her email plainly stated that the people in her life were not people, but things that owed her something, it was too chilling to me not to dump and run. Nobody likes to be equated with toilet paper.

Whatis-you will finally do what you need to do for yourself when you reach that point. After all, sociomom is never gonna change her magic formula-she is incapable. However, you can. And when you do, it will indeed be magic.

Meanwhile, enjoy the silence. Peace!

skeletonmom (20) 13 May 2009 02:29 PM

I found this vid on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxTddQM-d08&feature=related

A doctor discusses how to deal with a narcissist. Very good advice and very uplifting.

Peace!

ArabellaRose09 (15) 13 May 2009 03:09 PM

Today I have come to terms with the fact that my mother may suffer from NPD. I've spent most of my 30 years thinking that I was always at fault but now I realise my mother definitely has issues.

I spent most of my childhood in fear of my mother, she always made me fell small and inferior. I remember she always used to say 'I could've given you up for adoption or abandoned you' I was always made to feel that I should be grateful that she took it upon herself to raise me.

My getting married was also a major issue for her and she decided not to come to my wedding because things weren't done her way and she felt we desrespected her - She didn't speak to me for three years. I always blamed myself for what happened and sadly took my frustrations out on my poor husband.

Having a baby has been a massive eye opener for me, I thought my mother would play an active role in my childs life, but she hardly sees her. Whenever I offer to come and visit with the baby she always has plans or not sure if she'll be home.

Recently she took on new employment and they asked her to leave after two weeks work. She's now started a new job and has already had major issues with the staff there. I'm worried that if left unchecked her condition will worsen.

Because of my mothers NPD I feel an empty void in my life and miss not having a mother figure in my life. Is it possible to help someone with is disorder? If so, how do you tell them?

I'd appreciate your comments

Thank you.

keldubs78 (20) 13 May 2009 07:02 PM

ArabellaRose09 - I'm sorry for the difficulties you have had with your mother. It sounds to me like she definitely suffers from NPD. I've had similar realizations since my daughter has been born but in my case she wants to see her granddaughter ALL the time and creates chaos and drama whenever she does come over or we go there. However, in your mother's case I suspect that her not coming to the wedding and now not having much to do with your child stems from it not directly involving her. Your wedding was (as it should be) about YOU and your husband. NPD sufferers cannot handle situations that are not about them and sadly, something like a wedding or the birth of a child can be too much for them to bear. NPD sufferers cannot understand anything but the effect that every situation (no matter how small or big) has on them. They have no empathy or ability to understand how their actions affect others.

As for confronting your mother and whether or not it can get better, sadly from everything I have learned about this condition, it is not something that can be cured because a true NPD sufferer is unable to take criticism or reflect on their own actions. They live in a self-involved world in which they are always right and anything that challenges them forces them to put their defenses up and blame others, never themselves. I have discussed confronting my mother with my therapist who feels my energy would be better spent figuring out how to cope with the relationship I never had (nor ever will have) with my mother and learn how to control my thoughts and actions when I am around her to minimize further damage as much as possible.

I am not an expert so this advice is just based on my experience. Good luck and stick around and read what others here have to say. Having a mother with NPD is a very sad and lonely situation - you not only have to deal with a sense of never really having a mother who loved you but someone who actively makes your life more difficult. I know at least for me, realizing that this is why she is the way she is has made things a bit easier.

ArabellaRose09 (15) 14 May 2009 01:29 AM

keldubs78 - Thanks for your advice. It's true, realising why my mother acts this way will definitely make things a lot easier for me. I can now stop trying to chase after something that isn't there.

I hope that things will continue to get better for you as you learn to cope with your situation.

Psychologist2B (75) 14 May 2009 10:03 AM

ARABELLA, Beth has another post about whether you should confront a narcissist about their narcissism. I found it helpful. If you are dealing with a true NM though, as soooo many people on this thread have noted, disagreeing with them or sometimes even talking to them is like entering the twilight zone. They stand your words on their head, argue in a circular fashion, and generally drive you nuts. I personally cannot IMAGINE using the "N word" with my mother. If she could comprehend what I was saying at all, she would turn it around into my problem.

Beth McHugh (13211) 14 May 2009 07:32 PM

Sadly, it is not possible to change a person who is genuinely suffering from NPD, it is a pervasive personality disorder that begins in late adolescence/early adulthood and increases in intensity as old age is reached. The thing to do for family is to accept that there will never be a loving mother and thsi is the hard part since it goes against our nature not to want a loving mother. But accepting the reality of the situation is the key to overcoming the pain and anguish that is created by having a NPD mother. Best wishes, Beth

ArabellaRose09 (15) 18 May 2009 02:25 PM

Thanks for your advice. Again your words of wisdom have been very helpful.

getitat61 (42) 27 May 2009 04:17 PM

First, I feel for all of you!!! I am 62 and only last year realized what I have been dealing with all my life. I spent 5 yrs in therapy and have learned a lot about my mother and myself, however; that still does not always make it easy to deal with a narcissist!

I find myself always coming back to this site when things heat up with my N mother...and things are heating up yet again!

My husband (who was diagnosed with leukemia last fall - but doing well - is retiring on Friday) and we are finally going to our house in FL for several months beginning next week. My mother's dramatics have escalated and we had her to her doctor yet again yesterday (she has been in the hospital 8 times in the past year and is now is AL) for shortness of breath. The dr examined her and there is no physical reason for her symptoms - other than she is 86 - so he put her on another/new anti-anxiety medication (he and I have spoken many times and HE tells ME how manipulative she is!). She told him she thinks she is anxious because I am leaving for FL - (I am an only child - my father left her before I was born - YIKES!) and there are few people who visist her now - you reap as you sow! I understand that even for a "well" parent my leaving would be hard - but for her it is awful because her N supply will be distant - I feel like she is clawing at me - and it is very distrubing.

Anyway, I guess the doctor's visit didn't go the way she wanted (her bags were packed when I picked her up yesterday since she was SURE she was going into the hospital) so today the AL nurse called and said she fell - she is ok but will be sore.

My problem is that I am so sick and tired of all of this that I have little to NO sympathy left in me! Added to that, the nurse at the AL went on and on about how much my mother loves me and would love to see me everyday but knows I have to go away - it is such a crock. Did I mention that she didn't talk to me for 5 years once because I didn't agree with her on something ??? So how much did she miss me then??? Of course she had her 3rd husband around at that time to give her the N supply she needs to exist.

And I admit that I feel angry that these people view her as a poor little old lady and I KNOW her as an nasty selfish old woman who will stop at nothing to get her way.

I know this sounds so cynical but I am so disgusted and I do worry about what she may try next to keep me from going - I have promised my wonderful patient husband that even if she is in the hospital we are leaving next week. I know I can't worry about what people think but it is hard because on the outside she looks pitiful.....any shared experience with the elderly is welcome!

Grizelda (241) 27 May 2009 09:19 PM

Oh mercy - my heart goes out to you, Getitat61. I'll say a little prayer for you that you DO manage to get to Florida with your husband. Your husband DESERVES this so much - and so do you! - that it would be a cosmic crime if your mom managed to thwart you and bend both of you to her control. Your mom's got the best care anyone could have, being in an AL.

Mine is in AL too but I still managed to get upset with her constant demands, put downs, hypochondria and health crises that I sent her a letter (well 2 letters) with my "rules" of engagement so to speak - and she refuses to submit. I know she's waiting for me to either ask for forgiveness or sweep it all under the rug, pretend nothing happened, and go back to being her slave again, and I hope I have the strength to not cave and stay NC.

I wish I had good advice for you - I'm sure Beth will - maybe you could do something like that - a letter detailing how it's gonna be and what you're willing to do in the future or, more important, NOT do. I mean, it won't work, but odds are she'll get so angry she'll sulk and won't speak to you for a while and you could make your "getaway"? You might have to face knowing the AL people think ill of you - but you'll be OUT OF TOWN - I sure wish I was!

Oh I don't know - I've been NC since Feb. and that's hard, too, when you've spent a lifetime being a pleaser and craving approval and love. But even with guilt and embarrassment, I find NC not as hard as having most of my life force sucked out of me, which is what I think it takes to stay in contact and put up with the chaos and abuse of an NPD. Please keep up updated! And best luck and wishes to you! I'm so glad you posted - it's so helpful and sort of validating to be aware of others going through much the SAME struggle with this insidious disease. I still try to remember to feel thankful and lucky that some pioneering souls named this and write about it - but it's still just so difficult to cope with. You're not alone - and it's nothing about you that is wrong - it's HER - and you're right to fight for what you and your husband's own lives!

getitat61 (42) 28 May 2009 05:44 AM

Hi Grizelda - I can't thank you enough for responding to me. Sometimes you do feel all alone and I feel that I am the crazy one! Prayer is my strength - it helps me get through - but there are days I feel like I can't take anymore.

I also feel that sometimes I am alienating everyone by talking about this.....I try not to but that is hard too. I must say I have gotten MUCH better at letting the anger go more quickly since I have been in therapy - it helps to tell myself she can't help it - this is who she is. But I am human and do feel the rage well up - thank God it disipates pretty quickly and I can move on - only to get yet another assault.

One thing that did help me greatly when we were trying to get her into AL was a geriatric care manager - it might help you if you or your mom can afford it - and if you decide on the re-contact thing! She was so wonderful in handling my N mother (a good one understands the illness our mother's have) - I may have to get her back on the scene if things get too out of hand.

I WILL get away next Wednesday - I have to for everyone's sake - but you are right it is hard. I have had the NC deal too and I can't say that it was easy - it's not natural to not have a living mother as part of your life - but I did find some level of peace in my life which I think you have found too when we didn't speak. We have to remember to take care of ourselves - we matter!

Take care!

Another thing is my N mother is in her "I'm so nice aren't I" mode so others fall for this - I know it is just another form of manipulation! Has anyone experienced that - it also makes me furious because others can't see it for what it is......

Grizelda (241) 28 May 2009 01:46 PM

Wow - did your comments ever strike a chord with me. My mother is extremely gushingly sweet to people she's drawing in (and she always has an enemy group she tries to get all on "her team" to hate on - if they don't - voila, they're go to the enemy team.)

Anyway, before NC, nearly every time I was at the AL to see her, as I left, some worker or resident would come up to me, grab my arm or something, and say, "Your mother is just the sweetest lady in the world! I love her so much!"

And there I am, weakly thanking them, after spending half an hour listening to her rail in her venomous voice about half the people at the home - and how they're gonna "steal her blind" if she doesn't hide everything she has and how mean and envious they are (esp. the ones who ever try to tell her what to do or, heaven forbid, disagree with her.) She's always SO thrilled to tell me how she came up with some brilliant, cutting remark to put down one of the follow residents, or even lower-level staff. She loves to tell how their eyes went all shameful and everybody in the room turned to watch her triumph over the poor fool. Oh God, it's horrible.

Well, I always go off on my own tangents here - it's just so astounding to hear how similar these people are to each other! It's so uncanny it makes me think it may be a gene or something. Ohhh - and I was reading some article about psychopaths that said it's been noticed that they have slower heartbeats than other people. Well, my mother would always say the doctor bragged about her very-low heart-rate every time she got a checkup - yet she has never exercised. I know it means nothing, but when I read that, I though, OMG - an explanation! (I think the doctors working on the next psych reference - DMV or something - are thinking of designating NPD as a subset of Antisocial Personality Disorder which includes, guess who - Psychopaths!)

And I'm so far off on a tangent it isn't even funny, so I'll close, but I'll be thinking about you, GotIt - I hope we soon get to read a post from you from sunny FLORIDA!

whatisnormal (81) 29 May 2009 07:01 AM

That is something that bugs me too about my mom...she complains and rips on people, but to their faces, she is just gushingly kind and gives the "wouldn't hurt a fly" impression. It's tough having to be judged by those people for the way they perceive you to be towards your mother, because even though you realize they are clueless to the reality of who she is, it would be so nice sometimes to just blurt out "she called you a loser and says you couldn't find your way in out of the rain" or whatever the insult du jour happens to be. I think that's the main reason I have chosen not to talk to my mom as much...I'm still struggling with keeping my opinions about her, as valid and accurate as they may be at this point, to myself. It's sort of like, now that I get it, I'm not sure what to do with it...so I'm just keeping it to myself for now...well, and sharing with you all...which is probably the best place for it b/c you all understand. At least here I do not have to explain myself b/c it already makes sense to you all...that's a true comfort! I remember the first time I had trouble holding my tongue with her, my husband and I were in town for a visit...we saw my mom at church and were headed to my dad's side of the family for a visit. We wouldn't likely get to see my mom's mom during the visit...which caused my mom much anxiety, for she had to find a way to offer us up to her mom. So as we were leaving church she said "can you do me a favor and go by Mama's to pick up some pies I made." It infuriated me as I saw that she was trying to force me to go for a visit with her mom...I immediately blurted out loud (and shocked myself and my husband for doing so...why on earth was I suddenly calling my mom on her tactics...it freaked me out a bit...but it was also liberating b/c I was being truthful to myself and my mom) "you are manipulating me!" She rebounded with "well you need manipulating" and that was the last time I think she tried forcing me to visit with her mom. She would still sneak guilt in as much as possible after that day, but she never sent me after any more pies! I wish you both luck in dealing with the AL workers...it sounds like a very tough thing to negotiate, a very fine line to have to walk.

getitat61 (42) 29 May 2009 11:05 AM

Hi WHATISNORMAL

I truly understand about keeping things to yourself....no one gets it but a very few close to us. Luckily, my daughter, son and husband do - it is a comfort!

As for strangers, I truly try to contain my comments and endless stories but I am not as successful as I would like -and I realize it only reflects negatively on me NOT her!

However, I believe that if these "strangers" are around long enough it is only a matter of time before they will feel her wrath - she can't help herself ! Today she is planning on telling the director of the AL "a thing or two" about an incident........my mom may even have a point on this particular issue but God help this woman if she gets defensive or gruff to my mother. I have a new saying - My mother is not happy unless she is miserable.....and she is happiest if we are ALL miserable!

I am sure most of you can relate to that statement. I am sooo glad to have this site to communicate with - thank you all for listening and responding.....it helps!

louise1 (5) 02 Jun 2009 07:21 AM

My mum seems to fit this profile. In the space of minutes I can go from being her best friend to the most annoying person in the world, and if she's not getting 100% attention, she'll make snippy comments towards me, even in front of others, which is quite painful. I am 30 and she is 55. We have recently been in a business together, albeit it was bought and sold within a month and it is in an industry neither of us have experience in. She wants to buy another one, but tonight i expressed my concern that it was a massive investment for something we dont have experience in. In honesty it IS part this reason but also because we do not get along very well when we spend so much time together and it is always me apologising to her, as she is never wrong. She was very displeased with what i said. I feel that she thinks it's my responsibility to provide her with a job as the economy is bad and it is harder for a mature lady to find employment. I have spent my life trying to please my mother but it seems nothing is ever good enough for her. I feel that if i dont buy another business with her she's going to be peeved with me, but if i do, then i have to deal with her being peeved with me every other day depending on her mood. What is the best way to tell her i dont want to go into business with her, or tell her that i dont think it's a good idea since we argue so much???

Grizelda (241) 02 Jun 2009 11:32 PM

I wish I knew what to say to help you, Louise1. In another thread, Beth gave me this piece of advice about my NM that I keep returning to: "You will never be able to satisfy her even if you devoted your life to her, she would still have a complaint."

I had a slightly similar problem as yours - how to tell my mother I wanted to see less of her and wanted a new way of her asking me to do things - well, she never "asked" in the first place, "demanded" is more like it, but I digress...

Anyway, my wimpy solution was to write a letter. A tantrum followed, and the first days were the hardest, but I got through, even through a "medical emergency" that I am 99% sure she manufactured but I can't prove it and even if it wasn't - who needs somebody you're having a huge feud with in the room if you've got heart trouble...

Then when she called me 3 months later on Mother's Day (you know a Narcissist will pick a day to contact you when they think THEY deserve something lol), I wrote another letter, REPEATING what I wanted the rules to be. Presto, another tantrum - and back to NC.

Oh I didn't mean to dredge up my details again - hell, they're all in this thread - but maybe you can try to think of the most horrible things that could happen if you figure out how to be assertive with her, and how you might handle them. I WISH YOU PEACE AND GOOD LUCK!

From "The Anxiety & Phobia Workbook" - of the 25 items in their "Personal Bill of Rights": 1. I have the right to ask for what I want. 2. I have the right to say no to requests or demands I can't meet. 3. I have the right to express all of my feelings, positive or negative. 7. I have the right to say no to anything when I feel I am not ready, it is unsafe, or it violates my values. 8. I have the right to determine my own priorities. 9. I have the right NOT to be responsible for others' behaviors, actions, feelings or problems. 11. I have the right to be angry at someone I love. 16. I have the right to make decisions based on my feelings. 23. I have the right to have my needs AND WANTS respected by others. 25. I have the right to be happy.

Beth McHugh (13211) 04 Jun 2009 06:01 PM

Hi Grizelda, those bill of rights are applicable for so many situations in life, but never more for dealing with narcissists. Of course, they will not respect them, but it is important that those who deal with NPDs are aware of them and keep them uppermost in their minds. Best wishes again! Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 04 Jun 2009 06:07 PM

Hi Louise, you could try simply telling her at this stage that you would prefer her as a mother to a business partner, and you don't want anything to compromise her important role as your mother. This may confuse her as it will tap into her vanity as a mother figure. If she thinks she is in control she will lay off. If this does not work, you will have to be firm in your boundaries with her and keep saying "no". This will cause problems as she tries to manipulate you but hang on to the idea that it will be easier in the end to not go into any more ventures with her. Family businesses strain families when they are "normal" it's asking for trouble going there with an NPD. Best wishes,Beth

Psychologist2B (75) 04 Jun 2009 09:37 PM

A little while ago, I read a little book by Henri Nouwen called "Here and Now." He talks about how every human being that has ever loved us has loved us imperfectly. That helped me a lot. Of course, my mom has not been so deeply narcissistic that I could never see any love at all from her. In fact, I do feel that she genuinely loves me, it's just that she is stunted in her self-development: She thinks I think exactly what she thinks, feel exactly what she feels, and if she is not hurt by what she says, then I must not be either. She is unable to fully "decenter" --- a term Piaget first used to describe the point in development (the first decentering elements come online during the preschool years) that most people learn that other people have different perspectives. I once read that a toddler's temper tantrums can in some respects be because 1) his desires were thwarted and 2) the people that said "no" were being deliberately stupid. As he gets older, if he's not a budding narcissist, he will be able to see that sometimes there's a good reason for a "no" even if he doesn't like it.

Interestingly, other people in my family know "how my mother is" even though I thought this was totally new revelation. I don't have any siblings but my first cousin (whose own mother is a FLAMING narcissist and I don't know how he puts up with her nonsense) recently told me that the way my dad dealt with it was just to shake his head and mouth "that's not the way it was" when my mom started giving her own highly skewed versions of events.

Unlike some horror stories I have read (here and elsewhere) about narcissistic mothers, my mom was devoted to my dad, and cared for him unceasingly during the 5 years he was ill with cancer. However, she stayed mad at me the entire course of his illness --- but she never told me anything I'd done to deserve her anger. I think this is because she is basically unable to ask for or accept help --- but it really made her angry that I didn't read her mind and do the things she wanted/needed me to do. She will say yes, I know you would have done anything I asked you to do, but she never asked and she was always snarky to me. I didn't feel free to back her into a corner about her attitude, mainly because I knew she was under tremendous stress. I just took it.

Amazingly (to me) a cousin recently told her that her mother when visiting noticed my mother constantly put me down and made snide remarks to me. This was affirming because dealing with a narcissist of any severity makes you feel like your version of reality doesn't matter. I needed to know that other people that were important to me saw what was happening. Dad was too much in constant severe pain by that time.

Having a mother that was severely narcissistic and abusive is horrible. Having one that shows her narcissism by spells and by different degrees is a different kind of horrible. It makes it harder to see. When it is harder to see, it is harder to get it through your head that it is not your fault. I have had patients that saw from an early age that something was wrong with their parents, and although they had wounds, being able to distance themselves from the craziness (at least mentally) helped them get through it. I was an adult before I started getting the picture that something was wrong, and it has been only in the past 3 1/2 years that I have gotten the full-blown blast of it. I have had chronic bouts of depression AT LEAST since my early 20s and maybe even since the age of 11. I think that is probably because of the subtle narcissism I lived with daily ... where no matter what you do, you are wrong. Even if you are right you are wrong.

The women in my family (at least back to my maternal grandmother) have always had a hard time being physically affectionate. My mom tried, but her hugs were always kinda stiff and cold. My grandmother was the same way. I turned into an "air hugger" --- but fortunately I have good friends that teased me about my air hugs and I decided that I was going to change. I deliberately practice real hugs when I see them, and I work diligently at touching my daughter and sons with affection.

I guess this is a long post, but I wanted to end up by saying I'm not sure that everybody has to go no contact. My mom has given a lot to me, unlike some of the horror moms described on this forum. She is very difficult, but some of the strategies I am currently using are: 1) e mail: less emotional than telephone or face to face, and if she throws me a curve, I can read and reread until I am over the shock and can reply rationally 2) enlisting others --- I take my husband when I visit when I can, and invite her husband to outings too (I genuinely like him anyway) 3) making contact but avoiding any emotional topics.

I am still working on this. I am having to break a lifelong habit of telling her all my problems and then feeling worse for having done that. I lapsed just this week. I need to cultivate others in my life, especially girlfriends, that I can have a more mutual relationship with. I am on my way with that.

Psychologist2B (75) 04 Jun 2009 09:42 PM

In rereading my last post, I noticed a mistake ... the cousin told ME her mom had noticed, not my mom. It may not be important to other readers, but leaving that mistake bugged me.

whatisnormal (81) 05 Jun 2009 11:27 AM

PSYCHOLOGIST2B - I chuckled when I came across your term for "air hugs" in a "it's funny but it's not" kind of way. That's me! I give air hugs...well, I am getting better at really squeezing people. I too endured teasing from some of my more affectionate friends, which helped me to cross over to the slightly more touchy-feely side...not enough to be a card carrying member, but definitely improved.

I like your ideas on maintaining contact, but at an arm's length. That's basically what I did with my mom's mom 2 or 3 years ago when some of the drama began erupting. She will suck you dry emotionally if you are not careful. So, I never go to her house alone, and I send her information through others...she still feels connected to what is happening in my life but she doesn't have an "in" to my emotions, not directly anyway. Also the limited contact with her helps me to keep my mouth zipped about things that will only stir the pot, so to speak. I realize now that when I talk to her about the realities of our family, I am just plain being ignorant and/or evil. I am pretty sure she heads to her closet to pray for me after such encounters.

With my mom it is a bit more complicated, I think, but I am trying to sort it out as to what to do. Meanwhile, though, neither of us is contacting the other. She's probably relieved in the sense that she is not being bothered with the details of my life. But she probably misses being able to tell people she spoke with me, and the latest thing my son has done. Who knows, maybe she is making stuff up at this point in lieu of....

With my mom, it is almost like having to choose between my mom and my dad's parents that she has completely cut out of her life (despite the fact, or maybe because of the fact, that she owes them $23k) and is being nasty towards. It makes it a difficult line to walk when they are very important people in my life. My grandmother calls and checks on me like a mother should. My grandparents just do stuff that parents should do...like worry and track us down if we haven't made it to town by a certain time, or haven't called yet to let them know we have arrived back home safely. They even keep track of the weather in our area so they'll know if we are having bad storms, or sun. I know I am blessed to have them.

My mom doesn't think beyond the present moment, so I am sure when she returned the Christmas money to them this year, something they have given her every year for the last 30+ years, with a note (drama) basically writing them off, that she never thought of how I would feel at later gatherings that would include both my grandparents and her. Heck, I don't think she even thought about how SHE would handle attending the same events later on where they would be present...if it's not in the now, it's just not something she addresses. It's definitely better to wait until the 11th hour to come up with a "plan".

Currently I am struggling to decide on what to do for my son's upcoming birthday. Normally there would be one big bash involving both sides of my family, and also my husband's family. Now that my mom has made a boob of herself, and to two almost 90 year olds at that, it seems like it would be more stress than it is worth. So, my thought is to just not do a big bash at our home this year, and only invite my husband's family members who are local. We could always have three separate parties...one here, one at my dad's parents and one at my mom's mom's. Too much drama for this mama.

Beth McHugh (13211) 07 Jun 2009 09:13 PM

In order to further assist adult survivors of narcissistic parents I have provided additional resources in order to help break down the loneliness associated with this problem. By accessing my website at http://youronlinecounselor.com you will be able to participate in a new forum. Best wishes, Beth

Psychologist2B (75) 09 Jun 2009 07:33 PM

Hi WhatIsNormal, thanks for your reply ... you are talking about changing up your traditional "big bash" --- well, we are seriously thinking about taking a trip over Christmas instead of having the traditional holiday. It's amazing to me how we still keep ramping up the holiday "festivities" even though they have become more stressful than they're worth for so many people. My husband and I have decided to minimize gifts to the children still at home, and instead take a trip that everybody will remember, and give them some cash to spend on the trip. I remember a Christmas about 10 years ago when we were out of town, and all the kids got on Christmas morning was their stockings full of candy and small things. Looking back, there was the same excitement over a stocking that there is usually over the entire tree full of presents. If our families are unable to celebrate Christmas (or any other holiday) without squabbling, why do we keep insisting on trying to have the Hallmark holiday? I don't know. I think personally that you should arrange your special celebrations in a way that makes you the happiest.

whatisnormal (81) 11 Jun 2009 06:58 AM

Yeah, I get where you are coming from, Psychologist2b, and I am in total agreement. Sometimes the reasons we are celebrating get lost in the celebrations themselves! I'm not sure yet what my ideal situation would be here. It is definitely easier on me preparation wise to have everyone come to us, and to just do it once. I also place a lot of value on having my grandparents be a part of my son's birthday, both for their enjoyment and his. I just don't want to give my mom further opportunity to act like a jerk towards them. Who knows, maybe she wouldn't come. In the good ole days she would always come up with a last minute head or tummy ache when it was time to attend events on my dad's side. But, if she had one or two people from her family attending, she would probably feel comfortable enough (or maybe the correct term at this point is brazen enough) to attend.

I am also unsure whom among my dad's family knows about "the letter". I failed to mention that neither my mom or my grandparents know that I know about it. My grandparents I am sure have not told me out of respect, my mom out of I'm not sure what...embarrassment, or just knowing deep down that it was cruel and wrong, and knowing I would tell her so? I don't even know what it said, just that it was a letter that accompanied the returned Christmas money. I know she has cut off contact with them. So, no matter what it said literally, I know the statement it made to them, or was intended to make, was "bump you". Like I say, there are still innocent family members involved who know nothing of the overall situation, either with my mom being an NM or with her relationship towards my grandparents...or if they do know they are keeping it repressed.

I guess also at issue is the fact that I don't know what the family dynamic will even look like in a couple of months. A lot can change between now and then, especially since I suspect that's just about the time for the implosion of my mom's financial situation and that the anticipated confrontation will unfold; I suspect that we will at the very least be on the cusp of more drama by that point.

I guess I know in my head that the most logical plan is to have one party here, locals only. But part of me is rebelling against the reality that it is my NM that makes that necessary. In my heart, I feel sad and even guilty at the prospect of not including my grandparents. I know in the end I will think it too exhaustion and eventually come up with the right solution...I just have to go through these motions in order to get there (not to mention "E" motions!).

By the way, for those of us anticipating Beth's article on the Dad's role as it relates to NM's, it's up now! Thanks, Beth! I'll comment eventually...still processing.

gabyh (5) 11 Jun 2009 11:42 AM

I am reading about narcissistic personality disorder for the first time, trying to see if the behavior I see in my mother fits into something with a name, basically. I can see she has narcissistic traits, but I wouldn't say they are so extreme so as to label her as narcissistic (of course, I am no psychiatrist, so I couldn't anyway...) some of the traits I see are: she's has to be the center of attention, doesn't take responsibility for her actions, manipulates with crying and emotions, she's self absorbed, childish, doesn't accept when she's wrong and tries to justify everything when she is, she only cares about vanal topics or tasks and is completely reluctant to do anything productive with her life or change her empy, daily routine; she lies (even to herlsef) to adjust reality and situations to her convenience or to make her be/look right, she constantly exaggerates even with unimportant things. When I confront her (lately I have done it in a very direct, blunt way) she first finds blame on others or the past for her actions and then, immediately tries to convince me that it's ME who is wrong and that she's not even that "bad" as I say... there are other many things she does that make me think she has narciossistic traits, but there are others that don't fit. For example, she's not agressive or behaves like this particularly with me... she doesn't make me feel I'm not good enough, on the contrary, I am her everything in life and she admires me for who I am.

I don't know exactly what she has and I have told her directly she needs to go see a mental health professional because she's not happy, but of course, all of the things I mentioned above get in the way of having that conversation.

I don't know how to handle the situation anymore becuse I don't want to be permanently arguing with her nor I want to hurt her, but I cannot ignore the situation and just go with the flow and pretend she's alright... especially because she wasn't like this before!!!

She's always enjoyed being the center of attention and often puts herslef as a martyr or tries to manipulate with feelings, but this has just become worse and worse and now I can see some other patterns of behavior.

I would like to, first, know what her problem is, and second, find out how to help her.

She was a wonderful mother to me and my brother when we were growing up and now as an adult child, I hate seeing her become this childish, dependant indivudual who is not happy or making anyone happy around her.

Thanks g

Grizelda (241) 11 Jun 2009 03:40 PM

I don't know if this applies to you - but when you said your mother had gotten worse, it reminded me that mine was much nicer to me when my stepfather was alive. I think some (all?) people with NPD need to have a main target or "primary" Narcissistic-Supply source, and they treat that person like a doormat or punching bag or something, yet at the same time, they can be very nice to other people in their lives - like they're getting their "fix" somewhere else.

Maybe it's to let out the aggression that eats at them all the time? Oh I don't know - maybe it's sort of like the playground bully who always has to have a main target or whipping boy, and without one, he's miserable (and constantly on the look-out for someone vulnerable or just handy to start aiming all his venom at)

Oh, and as Beth says, N's get worse as they age, so maybe that's it? She's got a lot of blogs on handling the aging Narcissist. It can be a real challenge! An impossible one, sometimes. Good luck!

ErinRenee (6) 16 Jun 2009 03:04 PM

I have recently cut my narcissist mother out of my life for the third time in my 28 years. However, for the first time, her own mother and my grandmother, who has usually defended her, has now decided to cut her out of her life as well. Having my grandma's support after so many years definitely makes me feel that I am not crazy. I am so detatched at this point that I no longer care. I no it's not a healthy attitude, but I'm not sure what else to do. I cannot discuss anything with her, and I am tired of accusations against my character (which include sometimes up to 20 voicemails at a time ranting and raving) when I know that I am a good person. I just cannot expose myself to my mother's behavior anymore. Sadly, my grandma thinks that if we ignore her for a while, she will be forced to seek help. The most my mother has ever admitted is that she drinks to much. However, this displeased me, as I fear that she will blame alcohol for her problem when alcohol is only a small part of her anger and grandiosity issues. I only hope that one day, when I meet Mr. Right and have children, I can no what it's like to have a normal family, in which love is not withheld and children are rarely criticized. In the meantime, I have to learn how to deal with the guilt that I will inevitably feel after a few months of non-communication with mom. I have to continue to remind myself, perhaps, that I have tried everything else and keeping her out of my life seems to be the only viable solution.

helenelle (21) 17 Jun 2009 03:44 AM

Hello again. I took an open 'holiday' from still dealing with the NMother, still giving her my energy even though I am supposedly long term detached... However, I heard yesterday, that mine finally (I had been waiting for this day..) died 2 weeks ago. And I thought again of this community.

I thought I would intoduce this aspect of things, as my thoughts often included passing moments, ideas, wondering and hopings around her eventual death.

I'd like to admit 2 early observations from here:

1. I expected not to care, in fact, to even be cagedly thrilled (- vindicated, released). In reality, I feel inordinately sad. Literally that. Not ANGRY, wailing, self righteous, caustic... just a single damp cow plop of uselessness, waste, loss, pointlessness, hopeless... Not particularly pleasant, nor yet again, of any bloomin' use!

2. This event has forced my wider family (with my half-sister carrying it out) into contact with me. (my mother has left me some items..). It is this contact that has hurt me a lot.

It has revealed something I have never (been able?) recognised before, that my whole family betrayed me over my mother. every one. One by one. not one of them stood up for me, once.

What I think I have done is bundled all that anger, pain and shame into one, because the family members acted in the one unified inevitable and unrelenting way, and have put the whole bundle against my mother (she caused it.. she was the root).

In that way my 'eyes' never saw the individual actions or impact of the others involved, and they kind of got away with something.

Please note, that nothing here takes away any of the responsibililty of my mother in our the relationship; I am NOT now minimising her behaviour.

What I think I am suggesting is that the whole of the pain we feel, may contain elements of unfair (to be simplistic, but all inclusive) treatment from other people within the family dysfunction. And that this part will not heal (or even improve) before we allocate it correctly in our own minds.

It will wait until something happens that forces clarity (the truth will out), and that brings back the 'original' upheaval(s) all over again.

To be faced eventually. Today.

Thats all I've managed so far. I think it relates to being abe to really get free of the NMother. We need to deal appropriately with any other 'players; in the same drama as well. Not just the stuff coming out of the mother.

All the very best, Helen.

Psychologist2B (75) 17 Jun 2009 09:05 PM

Gabyh, I just wanted to insert a bit about your post ... your situation sounds closer to mine than most ... I would say that if your mom has some narcissistic personality traits, that they have likely been there all along, but you just accepted that this was the way your mom was, and because she's your mom, you might have just thought all moms were that way. It's when you get a bit older and get to know more people and observe other relationships --- then you start to question some things. But there's always another possibility --- that she really is deteriorating because of some undetected illness --- so if you can get her to go get evaluated that would be good. Honestly, the first time I saw my mom's narcissistic tendencies was when she was in the hospital, very ill. She took everything out on me and was very rude and mean to me, and yet if a nurse came in the room she was sweet to them ... so I knew it wasn't because she was delirious. She got so rude and hateful that I actually got scared and thought she was having a stroke. I called her doctor and he did say that narcotics (which she was taking for over a week for surgical pain) build up in the blood of the elderly and can cause delirium. So they changed her meds and she did improve. But then I was more conscious of her behavior, and realized that I had just come to expect a certain level of rudeness and insensitivity --- and I began to see that it was bad for my own mental health to let her shove the blame for everything off on me. Or to let her put me down just because she was stressed out.

amylou22 (5) 18 Jun 2009 07:47 AM

I have to thak you for this! A good friend sent me a link with traits of narcissistic mothers this week. She has heard me talk for many years about the twisted love/hate relationship my mom and I have and couldn't understand how as an adult I am so controlled by my mother. After reading the piece and later, your blogs, my life makes sense. I am not crazy! I have wept for 3 days, mostly with relief. I am not imagining it! Since I was an adolescent, I have been my mother's scapegoat. I am punished for everyone's sins. I have never been able to exactly point out what is wrong... when I finally lose it with her, it seems so trivial and irrational that, of course, I am the overly sensitive beast that is so difficult. After reading about NPD, I finally know that it is NOT MY FAULT!!!!! It has dredged up so many painful memories but I feel so free that I didn't do anything wrong. I am eager to learn more. I know that she pits my younger sister, her golden child, and I against each other often. My sister is getting married next year and I have already been played as the overbearing, control freak. As her Matron of Honor, I have already been removed from shower planning because, according to my mother, I overdo EVERYTHING and I have bad taste. It will be the classic no-win. I throw a shower and I did it wrong, I step back and I am uncaring and mean. But now I understand and I KNOW. It's not me!!!!!! And I can deal better with it. I am realizing so many things and seeing how I feed her problem, or how she USES me to feed her problem. She pulls away so I will pursue her affections more. She is a good mom... until she doesn't get her way. She can tell me her problems for hours but cuts me off before I can discuss mine. I am always shallow and petty. I have never been good enough. Now I know that I can never be good enough. She will never be able to be the mom I want. Thank you so much Ms. McHugh! Thank you for helping me finally understand that I am NOT CRAZY (and you feel how relived and happy I am!!!!) and for finally giving a name to the abuse that I knew I had suffered most of my life.

Grizelda (241) 18 Jun 2009 11:09 PM

So sorry for your sadness, Helen, and your new pain from realizing the culpability of others. I hope in time you can heal and move on, stronger and with a greater understanding of your nightmare and all the players. I can help but believe that the more clearly we figure things out, our history and what was done to us, by the personality disordered and their minions and even those who just stood idly by, the more we can find peace and true understanding. Not forgiveness or even a lessening of the wounds, but an acceptance of what we went through - and hopefully, how we can move on, with as little residual damage as possible. Good luck to you!

Psych, I spent a frightful night with my N-mom in hospital and her face/attitude scared the devil out of me - because I felt like I saw the devil in her. I've never seen her so reptilian, with all the facade pushed away in her fear and anger - and the nasty barked orders. Oh Lord, I don't think I could ever put myself in that place again. I'd pay for sitters myself if need be but NOT me - it was like a Poe short story being locked in a dungeon with a soulless demon.'

But with all that happens, like ErinRenee, I still struggle with an eerie kind of guilt, that I'm being bad and mummy's gonna make me pay when she gets her hands on me. She's taken steps to disown me and try to get back gifts she's given us - not even seeing her I can visualize the rage and hatred, and it's unsettling. I've never had another human hate me like this, let alone my own mother. Back to Poe or some Shakespearean tragedy where the Queen wants to annihilate all her offspring lest they take her thrown. It's a long difficult road ahead I fear, and I have no idea if I'll feel as Helen does when I reach the end of it. I'm sure I won't be gleeful but perhaps finally and truly safe? In the mean time, I'm just going to have to seek courage. I'm still no NC since Feb (none in person since Jan.) I'm not giving up my requirements for strict limits and I don't think she's capable of lowering herself to accept limits on her power over me. I'm supposed to be the slave, dammit - I can imagine her fury.

And please find peace and HOPE, Amylous. Knowing what we're dealing with - having so many resources at our fingertips on the web and in books - it's just a matter of accepting the truth and finding the courage to save ourselves. It's not easy and sometimes it makes you feel horrible, the confrontations, the determined application of limits and boundaries, the standing up for yourself, and then, the distancing yourself and even deciding to go no contact -- it's heart-wrenching. But for me, and for many others, it's a better life than being a whipping girl, an abused and overwrought martyr. Much better! Good luck to all of you!

Beth McHugh (13211) 19 Jun 2009 12:20 AM

Hi Amylou, no you are not crazy bu narcissists are very good at making you think you , especially when they are your parent and you grow up knowing little else. Now that you know what is going on, keep learning about the disorder and you will start to see certain patterns and then be in a position to begin to detach from your mother. At ast you know! Best wishes, Beth

username3 (11) 08 Jul 2009 09:39 PM

I'm 36 and about a year ago I figured out my mother has narcissistic personality disorder. I have many stories like others here about the physical and verbal abuse. I wasn't allowed to have friends or socialize growing up. I did have a few that she picked out but these "friends" were a lot like her. She was always ther if we got together. She was part of a cultish group and from memory I would say the majority of them were narcissists too. So this is the part that I'm ashamed of because it's within my control. I'm 36 and am living with my parents. I had jobs in my 20s that could have lead to careers but I didn't like them and my parents talked me into quitting assuring me it would be best. I know that in my 20s it's my responsibility to know better so I can't blame anyone for that. Now when I try to work my mom tries to sabotage it in various ways. So I'm kind of stuck in a catch-22. Maybe I'm not and just think I am. I'm very shy and when I'm around people I lose my confidence. My dad is the reason I'm not homeless. (He was just as abusive/controlling as her growing up but he may have a different issue.) My mom wants me to be homeless but the idea of me moving and having a job makes her irate. She is still verbally abusive. At my age I'm very ashamed of my situation because I know once you're an adult you're responsible for yourself. I think the issue is I don't have the confidence to do what I should. Any advice?

Grizelda (241) 09 Jul 2009 02:23 PM

I'm not a psychologist like Beth - but I feel I can really identify with your post, except I managed to escape my NPD and transfer my dependency to a husband. I think that several conditions might be more common in children of N's: anxiety, generalized anxiety disorder, avoidant personality disorder -- I've been diagnosed with those. Also, perhaps Post Traumatic Stress Disorder - I keep reading about that as a common condition in Adult Children of N's.

These are NOT easy things to get over - but I think they're high treatable, compared to NPD. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or something like that? But then, you'd have to find a competent therapist (which I've never been able to do except on the Internet - and I've tried three.) And you'd have to pay for it. And just coming up with the courage to try -- well, I've found that SO hard as well!

But I am so happy for you that you've figured out your mum has NPD though! There's so much help on the Internet - and figuring out WHAT is going on is a BIG part of the solution, imo. Or at least, it's a big part of feeling BETTER about your situation and realizing it's not your fault. You're like the rest of us - a VICTIM!

I wish you LUCK - and in the meantime, more peace of mind. One year isn't really very long to have realized what's going on -- I hope you're able to make a good plan to start getting yourself in a better place -- but just learning about the psychological dynamics of your situation is really HUGE!! Please keep us updated -- Beth has a new message board:

http://youronlinecounselor.com/phpbb/

and there's one that's been quite active and enormously helpful to me at this link:

http://thepsychopath.freeforums.org/adult-children-of-psychopaths-and-narcissists-f28.html

username3 (11) 09 Jul 2009 03:04 PM

Thanks for replying Grizelda. That's interesting because I do have PTS symptoms and anxiety. My behavior is avoidant too but I'm able to appear friendly in unavoidable social situations. After a period of a few months people start to notice I don't reveal much about my personal life and it seems that's when people start to wonder about me and get suspicious. I find that an embarrassing experience. O yea and I completely relate to trying to find a good therapist. I'll check out your links.

Beth McHugh (13211) 09 Jul 2009 07:00 PM

Hi Username3, you are welcome to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if you feel that would be of assistance. Best wishes, Beth

alexam1012 (5) 10 Jul 2009 07:53 PM

Narcissism? Hypochondria? Victim? Know-it-All? Perfect? Don't know what the appropriate label would be for my mother; however, some of the NPD blogs seem to fit her best except when I read definitions of NPD it does not really. Whatever her problem is... I need out. I grew up without a father and being my mother' "confidant". At the time I thought my mother and I had a great relationship, until I got married and became a parent myself. That is when my eyes opened up and my sisters finally said ... we told you so. I always thought they were being insensitive to our mother and unjustly harsh towards her. I became VERY angry once I saw how I had been manipulated all my life. I had to stay away from my mother and while we never regained the relationship we had, we have an on-again, off-again warmth in our relationship ... and now we are definitely in OFF mode. I feel VERY guilty as my mother is "sick" ... she has been most of my life, but she MILKS it for everything it's worth. No child should ever be their parent's crutch/best friend. I believe a parent should be the child's best friend, but never the other way around. I knew way too much about my mother's life that a child simply should not be aware of ... but it was always under the guise that I was the "trusted" one (or basically, the stupid one that allowed her to manipulate me). At 19 I became head of household ... suddenly in charge of my bills as well as my mother's bills. Ironically, all my mother can ever remember from this time period is how she bailed me out (I was not prepared to handle so much without preparation and I sometimes got behind on some bills, and all she remembers is the bailout and not that I put my life aside to take over all her bills along with mine! Hmmmmm ... 19 holding a couple jobs ... I don't think most people would have done as well as I did do which was pay mortgage, all utilities, 2 car payments, her credit cards and mine, all incidentals,food, etc. Any wonder why some credit cards just had to not get paid ... or why somtimes I needed a little help with a utility bill?). At 19 my sisters got married and on their own, and I was considering going away for college when Igot saddled with my mom's health problems and "incapacity" to work. She had always been the stronghold go-get-it woman. She raised 3 kids on her own and could tackle the world. I admire her. It seems once my sisters moved out and I was on track to do so that suddenly she began to have more complications that she could not handle on her own. She preyed on my childhood desire to want to care for her and have her not need to worry about working if she didn't have to. My theory is she did not want to be left alone and that is why this all happened to her. Sure, she had a surgery but she is certainly not disabled. When she WANTS something she has all the energy and mental stability to do whatever she wants. After a few years of caring for her, she eventually had a nervous breakdown (understandably she did go through some very traumatic experiences that nobody should have to go through ... brutally raped, etc ...) while she was visiting my sister who lived a few hours away. This was my way OUT! I told my sister I had cared for mom for years, and now it was time to help out. She had an established home, husband, children (as well as my other sister) ... I had not yet had the chance to live since all my focus had been working to make a better life for mom.

To this day my mother claims I kicked her out of her own home and left her destitute and homeless. In reality, what happened is her father owned a house that she cared for. He only visited it once every year or two ... and when my sister had enough and told her to go back "home" I already had her room rented out (to a very nice aunt who was diagnosed wth 6 months live and had lost her home). It was a great opportunity to get my mother to move into her father's house (which is very nice and we knew he would not have a problem with). She became VERY dramatic about the whole situation (as she always does). The drama ended as we all knew it would - she moved into that house which has been her home ever since. My grandfather already pays for that house with nobody in it ... he visits once a year or two only ... rather than paying her/us to go clean and care for it ... made perfect sense for her to just live in it. Sorry I digress.

Bottom line is my mother has different faces. On the one had when she is not being so self-absorbed in drama, she can be really cool. When you really need her she is able to get out of her "mode" and be there for you. But unless there are circumstances where she is really needed ... she seem otherwise unable to turn off her self-centeredness and be otherwise "normal".

The recent turn of events is that I see her trying to make my 8-yr-old son her advocate. My son is extremely gifted and has a passion for medical research. Not a prodigy, but just extremely curious in all things medical since he was 3. My mother is trying to use this as a way of slickly passing on awareness of her "illnesses" to him. Of course, she is incapable of being forth-right about anything ... it is always done ever so sweetly ... ever so guilely. But now my son is starting to become that "advocate" for her that she once had in me and I will simply not stand for it.

Until my eyes opened up my mother always got what she wanted from me by playing the "sick" card. She prefaces all her conversations with "you know I don't like to talk about what I am going through, and I keep it all to myself ... if you only knew how sometimes I cannot even get up ..." Funny, for someone who doesn't like to talk about what she is going through ...we all sure do hear alot about it. NO conversation can ever be complete without her turning it into something about her. Either she has to take control of the story and become the leader, or she has to turn it into full-fledged conversation about HER. It is very emotionally draining. She has MS: multiple sclerosis, and blames everything under the sun on her MS. Her knowledge of medical terms qualifies her for at least an undergraduate degree in medicine - yet she acts helpless and unable to remember anything. You have to explain everything ever so carefully and if you are not patient then you simply do not understand how MS affects your memory. I wonder how anything medical sticks to her memory so well that she is a walking encyclopedia?!

We set boundaries and don't let her go into her dramas. Once she does, we (my sisters and I) become blunt and firm and cut her off. This has worked most of the time and we have all had a civil relationship the last few years. My wife is very sweet and my mother has tried to make her an "ally", but my mother mistakes my wife's sweet nature for stupidity. My wife is anything but - she can see right through my mother - she just has a lot more patience about it than I do ... though it is starting to fade after 11 yrs of dealing with her.

Recently while my mother speaks to my son, under the guise of his extreme curiosity about medicine she asks him questions about certain medical conditions and what can happen, etc. He knows some, others he looks up in his medical texts or online (yes ... his reading ability/reasoning is mad crazy - he can remember medical terminology just as good as my mother!) I just discovered this as he was telling me we needed to be careful with his grandma as she can have a heartattack, etc. I was appalled!! She is trying to drag my 8-yr old into the role I used to fill for her. She has no ally ... everyone sees through her dramas ... so she is very lonely. She eventually loses any friendship because she goes from being a great friend to an emotional drain. So now she thinks she can pull my son into that role. NO WAY!!!!!!!!! My wife calmly told her yesterday that she would greatly appreciate if she would refrain from dicussing anything medical with our son. Of course, she always has a perfect excuse that sounds so innocent (which anybody who does not know her intimately thinks she is the greatest mom -ever so nice and caring ... which she CAN be ... which is what makes this all so HARD!!!!!!!)

She wasn't getting the point ... so Istepped in and said very clearly that it was OK for her to LIE to my son. If he asked her about how she was doing ... her response should always be GREAT! She was NOT under any condition to discuss her "REAL" medical status with him, and she was under no condition to ask him questions for him to "look up" for her on the internet. She did not appreciate this and kept trying to explain it all away... to which I told her that if I needed to monitor her calls with my son I would do just that. She blew a gasket and started to dredge up everything under the sun to which I simply told her when she was ready to have a "normal" conversation she could call me again. So ... we are OFF again for the time being.

How can someone appear so nice yet use every moment they can to manipulate and twist? My mother is incapable of simple requests like "I have a cold, sweetie, would you mind dropping off some soup on your way home?" Instead she has to find a way to "slip" in comments about how horrible she is doing ... how she does not like to impose on anybody ... how she just has to deal with it all on her own ... on and on and on ... all in the hopes that you will ASK her if she needs something. I have many times told her that if she would keep it simple ... no drama ... she would get LOTS more out of my sisters and I... but she is incapable of leaving the soap opera act. She could win an emmy award!

How do you deal with someone who is so emotionally draining??? I so want to HONOR my mother and love her ... I have always loved her dearly yet I find myself with so much resentment and anger towards her. And just when I've had enough she starts to act normal and she really can be a great person and the mom we al want when she forgets about herself. About a year and a half ago she seemed to snap out of all this. The drama was gone and it was a pleasure to speak with her. She was genuinely interested in US and OUR lives. Even my wife was enjoying herself wth my mother and WANTED her to come over and spend time with us. My mother spent a week with us and it was great. This lasted almost a year, then she began to digress back into slick manipulation, drama, NEEDY mode. What happened?????? I was so hopeful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We were so happy!!!!

I guess I am dumb to think that someday we can have a "normal" relationship with my mother. She is not all bad ... she has a great side and like I mentioned earlier ... when there is an emergency and you really need her - somehow she is able to snap out of her narcissism and genuinely be there for you. So I guess she's not a true narcissist. I don't know what her problem is, just that except for the occasional time here and there ... you cannot let your guard down with her - you need to keep a wall up to stop her dramas. I feel I am always having to put my foot down with her which makes me feel guilty. I tell my son how he has to honor and respect his mother, but he does not always see that from me. Soon he will question me on it and what will I say ???? All the grandkids love my mother ... she is very sweet and kind to them ... the oldest one (now 18) recently confronted my sister about our mother and my sister had to explain why she oftentimes sees us "short" with our mother, and gave my niece permission to respectfully set her boundaries with my mother if she tries to INTRUDE and PRY and otherwise try to manipulate her. This was very good as now my sister is not there to shield my niece who just went away to college and speaks regularly to her grandmother. She already had to put her boundaries to the test!

Is there any CURE for this? Will we ever have a NORMAL relationship with our mother? Or do we continually need to live in a state of ON-again OFF-again relationship with our mother (ON when she acts normal [unfortunately not so often], OFF with constant state of quick, short talks and avoidance when she is being her usual self)?

Sorry if I rambled ... and made this posting so LONG! Starting to write this down makes me realize that I am not a bad son simply because I am trying to protect my sanity and that of my family.

Still hoping and wishing for more of the ON times ....

Beth McHugh (13211) 12 Jul 2009 06:03 PM

Hi Alex, It's unlikely that your mother will change and although she does display some narcissistic tendencies it is also possible that she has another personality disorder instead. These people are very child- like and have not matured properly, often due to problems in their own childhood and hence are capable of these elaborate round-about requests for normal help that are always couched in drama and self pity. You can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if you think you would benefit from additional help but it is important to shield your son form these antics, although her effect on him will be considerably less than what you suffered yourself. Best wishes, Beth

appreciation (5) 15 Jul 2009 08:46 PM

I cannot overstate how amazing it is to finally find a place where some other people have a mother like mine. I've tried looking up possible definitions of what she has, but alas, no luck until right now. I see some amazing people in these comments, every single one of you.

As for me, I have seemingly, not only the worst luck in the world but a very narcissistic mother. It is very tough as you all know, a seemingly perfect person to the rest of the world, except their children. I've had two brothers, one has had the smarts to get away from her while he could and the other.. Well she killed him and got away with it. Played it up to the courts and everyone believed her because she was always nice in front of them, all her witnesses.

Didn't believe it for so long, until after getting out of foster care, she took me in and admitted it.

Many other tough things have happened and she's done other unimaginable things, said others and has spun me into such a big web at the age of 19, where I'm 100% reliant on her because of how we've moved away from my friends, she had me take care of her rent instead of school so I'm too far behind and tomorrow, she's kicking me out because I lost my job to the economy and she won't have a son on unemployment.

After this entire life, I feel like a purebred show puppy that was trained and showed off to the world but once I got older, I lost my use to her and she made it so I'd be all alone. All I can hope for is that god ends my suffering soon, in any way he can, because its gotten very old and I'd love it if I didn't have to be degraded and scared all day.

Grizelda (241) 16 Jul 2009 03:40 PM

OMG! Your mother is all the way on the worst side of the N spectrum at Psychopath! I hope you can take advantage of her "kicking you out" and can make a new life somewhere else - maybe your brother can help you? Or a community college/dorm or something like that, where the fees aren't too bad, and you can make a new start? I think student loans and Pell grants aren't too hard to apply for. I think maybe you should consider hiding your whereabouts from her - that's so scary! Good luck!!!

whatisnormal (81) 17 Jul 2009 11:03 AM

So, I was feeling relieved having had NC with my NM since early May (I never officially went NC, but I guess the fact that there has been NC for such a length of time makes it so). It is nice not talking to her, and not having to go through the effort of extracting the real story from her mangled versions of the truth, not having to pretend that I don't notice her disinterest on the other end of the line when I am the one talking, etc. It's much less grief and confusion I have to endure overall. However, with the more time that passes, it seems like stress/anxiety is beginning to gain a bit of momentum over relief. I suppose that partially it is due to the fact that as more time does pass, the higher the stakes are starting to feel. It's like I am acknowledging that either I have already passed the point of no return, or that I am really quite close. Also, it is tough for me to imagine that things will just continue along quietly and uneventfully indefinitely, so there is a sense of dread about what is to come.

I am curious as to what is going on in her world. By that I mostly mean her circle of extended family...her brothers and their families, my aunts and uncles. What do they all think is going on...I think I was sort of hoping to just let this whole NC thing kind of sail along mostly un-noticed by several in the extended family. I thought the physical distance between us kind of gave me an added advantage. But I am finding it isn't quite that simple. I cannot for instance copy my NM's siblings on emailed photos and updates about my son as I have in the past...as I can play my doing so all out in my mind where one of them would innocently mention some new thing about my son to my NM or her NM, under the assumption that of course NM/her NM would already know about it, and in turn the NM's would each get to play their respective roles as the injured, emotionally tortured victims of their daughter/grand-daughter's cruelty. I think most of us have a rather strong aversion to being portrayed as the bad guy...likely more so than folks who grew up w/out NM's, because we have been groomed to work extra hard to gain the approval of others. Sure, there's a level of maturity that one eventually reaches where they realize that it's what you know to be true on your inside that matters the most, not what others perceive to be true from their limited knowledge on the outside. HOWEVER, defending your integrity against one or two flawed perceptions is not the same as feeling as though you are potentially facing an entire army of ill informed onlookers (add to that the value you place on these onlookers' approval). I guess that's really it. It just seems like at this point, or some time soon, it will be evident to more and more folks that I am not speaking w/ my NM...only they just think she is a mom, not a NM. And so, I guess I am dreading being labeled the bad guy as many of you have posted before.

By the way, my son's bday is coming up soon. We decided to go small and local, so no one from either side of my family has actually been invited to drive over. My NM has not inquired about it, so I am interested to see if she will call or send my son anything, or if her NM will. I guess it is just basic human curiosity that is tugging away at me lately, and maybe it has nothing to do with the unfortunate luck of having a N for a mom. But it really just feels bigger than that. I don't want to think about her at all, or the countless bad relationships I most likely entered into because I lacked any sort of emotional compass for the longest time, or of the people I have been awkward or inappropriate towards in my life, because I just didn't know any better, or the behaviors in others that I have excused because I thought it must have been me, not them, etc. I could go on but these are the things that are inhabiting my thoughts of late...in a sense the NC with my NM has been great b/c it's just nice not dealing her...in another sense, I actually AM dealing with her in my thoughts, but it's the past her, the past me. Is this what it means to be grieving? I thought I had done that already.

Grizelda (241) 17 Jul 2009 03:32 PM

I can really relate to your post, Whatisnormal. I spend way too much time reading messageboards and re-reading books about my "situation" with my mother. I keep composing "summations" of the situation to defend myself in my journal - and I imagine confrontations with all sorts of people who are accusing me of being a deadbeat daughter, defending myself in fantasy conversations -- even though, I know it wouldn't even be appropriate for me to go into details of my (and my mother's) personal lives. Sheesh!

Sometimes my only real comfort is remembering how upset I was when having to deal with her rude dismissive hurtful behavior towards me. Back then, I'd stay awake nights "telling her off" (which in real life, of course, would never have worked because she knows many ways of cutting me off before I get a sentence out.) It was undoubtedly bad for my blood pressure and overall health.

The guilt -- or fear of facing her or someone on her side, as bad as it is, is not as health-threatening, if that makes sense? I'm CALM even as I feel embarrassed or anxious. It certainly isn't a great situation -- but as ACONs, well, I don't think there's really an easy "out", especially for those of us who can't just "disappear" (or don't want to, because of other relatives or whatever.)

Whew. This is wearing me out. OTOH, I'm afraid a big part of my problem is just that I have an anxious personality (due to having an N mom, imo!!) So, I also tell myself that if I weren't obsessing about my N-mom, I'd be obsessing about my disabled son's future - or my other son's interpersonal problems - or my husband's health - or my own hypochondriacal symptoms - etc etc etc. I don't know if you have a problem with obsessional thinking, like I do, but, well, is it Buddha who said Life Sucks for Everybody, one way or another, sooner or later? Something like that.

I wish you peace, What. And everybody here and myself too. Maybe we just have to try to make a quantum leap - make a decision and have faith that it's the best we could do under the circumstances - and FORGIVE ourselves for whatever we feel guilty about and decide that's just the way it's gonna be, perfect or not, and relax? (like I could ever do that, bwah!! But it's a goal to keep striving for?)

Beth McHugh (13211) 19 Jul 2009 06:49 PM

Hi to all readers! I am often asked by clients undergoing therapy why it took them so long to find out that their parent had NPD. Why isn't is better known? I have added an article explaining this phenomenon on my website at http://youronlinecounselor.com You will find the link in the "Articles People are reading now " box. Have a read and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the site forum which has been especially created for adult children of narcissistic parts to chat and exchange views. Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 19 Jul 2009 06:53 PM

Hi Appreciation! Welcome to the site and I'm glad you found it comforting. As part of my http://youronlinecounselor.com site I have started a forum especially for adult children of NPD parents to share their experiences. Although your circumstances are painful, you might find in the long term they are for the best but you will need to go through the anger/sadness process in order to successfully extricate yourself from any pain your mother may cause in the future You are welcome to contact me at the above web address if you require extra assistance in letting go. Best wishes, Beth

tenacious (36) 20 Jul 2009 01:36 PM

Am researching NPD mothers. Am 59. Learned my mother had this when I was in my early fifties, but by then I was on social security disability, twenty years of therapy behind me! I might have done better with my life if I had realized I wasn't crazy, and that what I saw in my mother, but could not articulate, and couldn't make anyone else see, had to do with her having this pathological personality disorder. This just explains everything. Why it seemed she did not see me, had no idea who I was or what I was about. Why she always seemed to put me down. If I was proud of something, she'd let me know of someone else who did better. Always, always, always. A therapist I was seeing at the time, inadvertently met my mother, and this is how I learned of my mother having NPD.

I'm no longer in therapy, and am trying to start my life over, so to speak. My children don't understand. My siblings are too damaged to be supportive. I've been divorced thirty years, from an abusive husband I married when I was sixteen, never remarried, swore I never would as long as I was not independent. I never got into a relationship with a man who wasn't damaged. Never had friends who were not damaged. I don't have any friends I can share this with. I'm alone. But better alone than being abused, used, and put down. But I hope I can learn to develop healthy friendships, and perhaps a healthy relationship, if it isn't too late for me.

I didn't grow up with my father, who died in 2002. He's another horror story. He and my mother married and divorced twice. He was a sociopath when he was drunk.

I moved 60 miles away from my mother and siblings a year and a half ago. The way I feel now, I could live the rest of my life without ever seeing any of them again. But I have not told anyone I feel like that, am just going on with my life.

Unfortunately, I rent a room in my son's apartment. It is for now mutually beneficial, but not ideal for either one of us. I am diplomatic, and have learned if they don't understand, then I have to just keep on working on this by myself, don't have to share with them, since they don't get it, and it leads to insulting me anyway. I want to have my own independent life! At 59, I still have a chance to do something with my life before I get too old to do anything at all.

I'm sad, but not devastated. I'm lonely, but not desperate. I pray, am doing this research to gain more clarity, and concentrate on staying positive and hopeful.

Beth McHugh (13211) 20 Jul 2009 05:01 PM

Hi Tenacious, it is a hard road you're walking but at least you now know what you are dealing with. Good luck, it's never too late to start your life and 59 is young when life is good. And your future can be good. If you need extra assistance you can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Best wishes, Beth

tenacious (36) 20 Jul 2009 10:42 PM

Thank you, Beth. Yes, this is a difficult road, because I'm alone in it. But it's when I was possessed by rage, confusion, depression, insomnia, fatigue, anxiety, panic attacks, self-destruction, that it was even more difficult. I mainly regret that I lost so many years not knowing there was a label for my mother's personality, causing her to behave as she does. It's a relief to know it was not my imagination that she has an insidious nature. I've also become aware that my youngest sister, who is my mother's favorite, treats me just like my mother, with put-downs, but acting as if she has my best interest at heart. She has had a tendency of setting me up and sabotaging me, and now it dawns on me that it hasn't been my imagination. The expression on her face is identical to my mother's, the tone of her voice, things she says, exactly like my mother. The more I know about NPD mothers and the damage it causes to children and what it can do to adult children, the better prepared I can be to deal with it, and heal from the damages. I regret it took so long to make this discovery, but at the same time, I'm relieved to know it now. It was like having an invisible demon wreaking havoc with my life, but now I can see it, so I can dodge out of its way. I still have occasional nightmares, because I still feel vulnerable. I need to be independent, off social security disability, earning a living, before I get too old to do so. I took some real estate courses, and all I have left is to take the state exam. This fall I am enrolling in courses at the city college. I was forty when I got an English degree, but was too damaged to accomplish more than that. Although, I've been writing poetry and sometimes read in public, and other writers/performers encourage me to do more of it. I need to work on self-confidence, and I think I"ll be all right after all. I'm almost there.

Beth McHugh (13211) 21 Jul 2009 05:24 PM

Hi Tenacious, if its any comfort to you, most adult children of narcissists do not work out what is actually wrong with their parent until they have children of their own and watch the difference in their lives compared to the regime under an NPD. Although you may know something is "wrong" with your parent when you are younger it can take half of your lifespan to work out exactly what it is. If you go to my website at http://youronlinecounselor.com you will find in the new articles section down the bottom an article on why it takes so long for people to discover the truth about their narcissistic parent. Best wishes, Beth

whatisnormal (81) 23 Jul 2009 10:57 AM

GRIZELDA, thanks very much for your post! Just what I needed! I don't know why I am thinking about it so much lately...I guess it is sort of like going on vacation, and towards the end of it you start dreading getting back to reality, kind of shifting gears in your mind to prepare yourself for the plunge back into "life". You basically start working again in your mind before the "vacation" even ends. As much as I would love to forget that there is an elephant in the room, it is there and soon its mess is going to start seeping through the imaginary walls that surround my immediate family. I know my NM is still on a spending frenzy (b/c she has been my entire life), is about to hit a point where she can no longer fund her fantasy life, and has most likely severely damaged her ability to maintain even her bare necessities. I think her health coverage runs out this month or next also. I am going to try my best to not let the guilt get to me at that point...right now she is the irresponsible woman willfully running her life into the ground, so it is a bit easier to stand my ground. But by then, she will be the poor, helpless, suffering victim. I guess what I have going for me this time is that her mess will actually be too big for anyone to clean up, so maybe I won't look like such a loser daughter.

It still blows my mind. She chose a car payment over health insurance...I was trying to assist her in finding an appropriate plan and she just discarded my efforts without any worry as to the consequences 6 or 7 months down the road when she ran out of health coverage. There I go being invisible again...ha ha! I guess it was too forward thinking, responsible and mature for her? And for what? A car? My brother says she doesn't even drive the new car...she uses her old car when it is just her. I think I know why...she is not disciplined at being clean, orderly, etc. Her NM is militant about cleanliness and order (I think my NM actually deliberately sets out to be a slob to rebel against her NM's cleanliness...I could be over-thinking, but it sure seems that way...all the while, she tries to fool her NM into thinking she "has it together"). Or it could just be another example of her choosing what feels good at the time over what is somewhat considered to be work, or the responsible thing to do (i.e. watch tv, read a book, take a nap, etc. over dusting, sweeping, carry something to the trash can instead of laying it down to be dealt with "later"...later of course never comes and it all piles up). Anyway, she most likely only has this new car to use when she is in her mom's presence, so she can feel praise or acceptance for work she really isn't doing...that is, keeping it clean. It isn't really being kept clean, she just isn't getting it dirty. Or maybe she isn't looking for praise as much as to not feel looked down upon by her mom. What an expensive way to go about feeling good about one's self. It makes me very sad to think of someone so scarred in life that they will drive their own life into the ditch in the name of unattainable love. On the flip side of that sadness though is gratefulness that I got out of what appears to me to be a cycle that has been repeating itself who knows how many generations back.

I have to say I do sort of obsess over things...I will think something through about a million times, until I am satisfied that I have figured it out or gotten it right. Then of course I will later look back upon my "final answer" and criticize it, pointing out the things I could have/should have done better. I am actually better about it now than I used to be...but I still obsess and work solutions in my mind and on paper to exhaustion. I too have kept a journal for as far back as I can really remember. I guess it was a way to have conversations with someone who "got" me, because most people don't! And I think that is because I can count on one hand the number of people I actually "let in" to see the real me...well more than that now really thanks to this site...but even you all are anonymous. :-)

I also think I am on somewhat of a journey for the "truth". There are several things that I am just now realizing weren't "right" about my childhood. And the interesting thing is that I actually feel guilty for feeling that way about some of them, and I almost still try to make excuses for my mom. I almost feel I am being disobedient for calling things what they really are, instead of keeping them buried deep down inside and pretending they didn't happen or if they did that there was anything remotely wrong about them. Since it took me this long to even have a light bulb moment, I guess it makes sense that there are many many years worth of underlying issues ahead for me to unravel. It's nice knowing I am at least moving forward, really no matter how long it takes to get anywhere, or if I never even reach a sort of final destination at all, at least I am moving. And that's better than being bumfuzzled and stuck.

Great article on why it takes so long to figure out your parent has NPD on http://youronlinecounselor.com. I posted my comments at http://youronlinecounselor.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39

stillparentingafteralltheseyears (265) 31 Jul 2009 03:49 PM

Very glad to have found this thread, now I know why I got on this site. Part of my "everything happens for a reason" philosophy of life. It makes me feel so much better to read of others going through so much of what has also caused me so much pain.

Also, my husband's late father was NPD. I find myself envying him thet his father finally carried out his many times threat of killing himslef 2 months ago and now my husband no longer has to deal with his father and the daily destruction. Many of my best friends mothers are also NPD. We give one another support and strength and are willing to listen nonjudgemantally to the crazy stories.

Thank you so much for these threads and articles. You are ding a great thing here!!!!

bearwithme (71) 14 Aug 2009 03:31 PM

I am new to this group and have read most of your comments and WOW! You could all have been raised by my N mother. The similarities are striking to me. I feel all your pain.

I was raised by my Nmother. I am now 42 and at the age of 36, I began therapy for the turmoil my mother put me through. She was a raging, angry, jealous, self centered, thoughtless, shouting, screaming machine of a parent. Her insults on me and my brother were relentless. She denigrated my father in front of us saying he was stupid, illiterate, dumb and a horrible father. Brother turned to alcohol and drugs and I stayed a good little innocent girl to please her. Her anger and rage threw a shadow over my father and I was taught that he was the "bad guy." He eventually shut down and became silent. They surprisingly divorced when I was in my 20's.?!

I hurt so bad as a teen. I covered sorrow with laughter and tended to her wounds like a parent should. I had to make her look good and treat her like queen in front of her friends. My feelings were stupid to her and if I broke down and cried due to her hours of raging craziness, she would laugh at me and say..."see, you are dirty, messy, slow and stupid...your soooo weak...you can't handle life!" Then she would be sweet as pie the next day. I tried to commit suiced (very poor attempt) and prayed for God to let me die, to just let me stop breathing and fade away. At the age of 11 I got shingles. Doctors felt that it was stress related given my young age. But she blamed my father and said, "oh, it must be because he works nights and that's really stressful for us." What the...?

Long story short, I became exhausted with her life as I let mine fall apart. I entered therapy because I thought I did something wrong; that I was stupid and slow, that I was non-ambitious and couldn't handle confrontation because I was dumb and gutless....I can go on and on. I suffered an anxiety attack that put me in the hospital as I thought I was dying and that is where I faced a Doctor who told me forcefully that nothing was wrong with me, that I needed to tend to my emotional well being. What??? In therapy, we (doctor and I) discovered she had NPD. I could put a name on this?? What?? This was awesome.

Over the past 6 or 7 years I got married and had a baby who is now 2. Nmom was angry at my wedding because she felt I didn't make a big deal about her and she wasn't involved enough. Mind you, she helped pick out my dress, help pick out the invitations, help with the color schemes, we got our hair & make-up done together, help pick out my shoes, help pick out music, help with travelers, etc. She was unsatisfied with all I did for her, even paying for her hotel room, transporation, etc. At the birth of my daughter she acted weird (and then some) in front of my father and his wife. She bullied his wife and said that she herself was the "REAL Grandma" and nudged her aside. So embarassing. There is soooo much more as you all can imagine.

I'm now at a crossroads. Nmom has broken all the rules I laid down for her when my baby was born in 2007. i made a promise to myself that she would not poison my daughter and my family. I'm giving her a chance with her granddaughter as I feel this is right. However, Nmom strikes me down from time to time and this is a deal breaker for me. She disparages my father and his wife in front of me and baby and laughs. Last year, I told her not to do this anymore in my house and it blew up in my face because after 3 hours of her crazy rage, it just ended with her crying like a baby and I had to say sorry.

Nmom loves her granddaughter without a doubt. Nmom does let her NPD leak out on her though and I can't deal with it. I need to have NC but feel like the villian taking her sweet granddaughter away from her. Truth is, I will not subject my daughter to the damaging garbage Nmom throws our way. Nmom is getting worse but I know she tries. Not good enough. I don't know what to do. I'm in a dark place right now.

This is the hardest thing in the world to deal with.

Thanks for listening.

Grizelda (241) 15 Aug 2009 09:18 PM

My heart goes out to you. It is SO hard to deal with this, for anyone. But it sounds like you've got quite a good handle on things - it's HUGE that you realize your mother has NPD! You're armed with knowledge. And you laid down "rules", which is, imo, all you CAN do, while in contact with an N (and you saw for yourself how difficult setting boundaries is - maybe it's impossible with your N.) And the most important thing: you are determined to not let her disorder hurt your child. That's wonderful!

But knowing all that doesn't make it much easier I know. (The only thing that really helps me when I'm feeling especially guilty and afraid is to keep reading on the 'net about this mental disorder and how so many others have coped.) I wish you courage and peace!

bearwithme (71) 16 Aug 2009 11:27 AM

Grizelda, Thank you for hearing me and for the support. Your words are comforting. I feed off of other people's experience with this. Isn't it weird that this disorder is so cut & dry and there are no grey areas? It is almost the same for everyone across the board! This disorder actually fascinates me to some degree.

All in all, it is SO hard as you said. So hard. So hard. I'm shaking my head right now just thinking about how it is. I am thinking about NC on a daily basis and I also go back to that soft hearted place and want to just forget about my Nmom's transgressions....but I know that's impossible, it will never happen. I need to forgive and have pity on her. Are you in NC with your N?

Grizelda (241) 16 Aug 2009 04:50 PM

Oh my goodness, Bearwithme - you reminded me of yet another probably-N-related thing. When I was 12, I started getting hives all over my body - and this happened a lot (I had to keep Benadryl with me at all times.) Interesting how I didn't have that problem anymore after I left home for good at 17.

But truly, I can't imagine what you're going through with a 2 year old. My kids are nearly grown, so I don't really have the worry that I'm depriving them of grandma and vice versa. And I can so relate to your feelings that you aren't sure you can keep NC.

I'm not sure I can either - but I've been lucky that my mother reacted with such RAGE (as usual) when I tried to set rules/limits. She basically disowned me, which I can now use as my "excuse" when I'm feeling guilty. Which is often - I guess it's why I'm here! I spend at least an hour a day reading N stories online, and I don't know when this pervasive uneasiness will let up.

Well, it HAS let up. My nightmares concerning her have stopped! I've been NC since January (except for a couple letters in February.) Unfortunately, my N-mom lives in my town; when Thanksgiving comes I don't know what I'll do, let alone Christmas; and if something happens to her in her Assisted Living place, and they contact me (or try), well, I imagine I'll panic and Lord knows what I'll do.

Gee, I sure haven't given you much comfort! But it does help me to keep REPEATEDLY reminding myself how incredibly lucky I am to live in an age with this mess has been clearly identified - with advice books lining my bookshelves as we speak!! - and all of you fellow sufferers to interact with -- we really do have a lot of resources from brave souls like Beth and Anna Valerious and Kathy Krajco et al. That's such an amazing GIFT and stroke of good fortune for us!

Now if I can just process all that and accept my lot in life, which is learning to live with the sorrow and anger - and yes, even the guilt and fear about NC. My mother has NPD. It just is what it is. It'll never be made "right" or comfortable or any of those things that many take for granted with their parents.

Oh, and yes - it is ASTOUNDING that these N's behave so similarly. It reminds me of Asperger's, which I think they now know is a clear difference in the brain chemistry. My mom always said her doctors complimented her extremely low heart rate - I read somewhere that psychopaths have low heart rates. Part of me believes that Narcissism has a LOT in common with Psychopathy and Antisocial Personality Disorder - it may even be a milder form of it (where they're still concerned with what other people think of them.) I think many NPDs are sadistic like APDs - hurting us makes them feel powerful and superior, and they love it.

Well, I'm rambling - but please don't beat yourself up over this! It can't be helped and it's NOT YOUR FAULT - it may not even be your mom's fault if it's faulty brain "wiring" - but that doesn't mean you should subject yourself or your precious daughter and hubby to the dysfunction and pain. Anna Valerious says there's ALWAYS "pain and chaos" if you have any contact at all with an N. Period.

A dear friend of mine said her own mother was bullied by her narcissistic grandmother and it broke her heart -- she and her sisters suffered just by WATCHING their mother suffer at the hands of a bully. So you're NOT being selfish by cutting off contact - Kathy Krajco emphasized that you MUST love yourself enough to protect yourself - otherwise, you're in no shape to provide love and comfort to the people in your lives who are capable of loving you back. And that would be the biggest tragedy of all!

cremix (20) 16 Aug 2009 06:20 PM

I just found this thread after browsing the internet. About a year ago, I entered therapy because I was about to turn 23, felt I was incompetent and unintelligent, and hated that I was so depressed so often.

After many sessions with my therapist and her talking to my former therapist, it was uncovered that my mother is not only bi-polar, but suffers NPD. I am, quintessentially, the kind of daughter that emerges from the Nmom mess. All the insecurities and worries that Nmom manipulated me into believing were just delusions and monsters she positioned to keep me near her...

Nmom is incredibly co-dependent, especially on men. She has delusions about her relationships and being praised by men, namely.

The more I read this site, the more I felt a connection with the posts, but still felt so insecure. My mom refuses treatment even for her BPD.

Recently, I began spending increased amounts of time at my boyfriend's apartment, which is about 30 minutes away. I spend most of my time here, understandly at 23, I can do that since I am an adult. I brought my computer here so we could play games together, and I could work while here. Nmom has consistently had fits whenever I refuse to drive home to let her borrow it (even though I leave it there more often than here in attempts to placate her anger).

Unfortunately, it isn't working.

I have tried to break free of her grasp twice before, and every time have ended up returning to her home and feeling more incompetent. I turned down scholarships to college when she insisted I stay with her. It doesn't seem like anybody understands how incredibly hard it is to break free from someone who has spent all 23 years of my life convincing me that I need her so desperately.

My boyfriend tries, but fails. I expend vast amounts of energy being frustrated by her and not understanding the logic behind her behaviour. My friends despise how she behaves and avoid her completely any time I'm at her home. When I do mention moving out, she acts childish and pretends like I can't do it without her (threatens to take away things, etc). My step-father has been with her for 4 or so years, and is depressed because of her.

At this point, he insists I move out because she's 'crazy'. He sleeps in a different room, has been kicked out because he was defending his little brother in an argument, and etc.

I guess my issue is whenever I think I need to leave her, I fear that I'm financially incapable, mentally weak, and not intelligent enough to do so... Despite years and years of being in gifted classes, receiving scholarships, acing my education and impressing colleagues with my talents. Regardless of these 'things', I feel empty and inconsequential.

I've decided to move in with my boyfriend, who insists I do this for my own sanity. I'm so afraid I'm not able to do this. My father lives in Canada and I am not in contact with him for the most part... And lately, I've found that I'm more and more bitter and jealous of those people who have incredible parents, namely their mothers.

I hate to admit it, but I really feel like words of encouragement from people who understand what it is like would help more than my social circle who have said incredible parents.

Grizelda (241) 16 Aug 2009 07:55 PM

Oh Cremix - so sorry for your situation. One great thing: you're so young - many of us stumbled around not knowing what the HELL was going on for literally decades! Well I did, anyway. I wasted years thinking it was my wimpiness and worthlessness that was the problem instead of her personality disorder. I hope you can bolster your courage and your belief in YOURSELF by using the knowledge that your mother's insidious disorder has caused your problems - and you have the power to stop it!

I understand the feeling of envying others' excellent families - but envy is one of the main things that destroys people with NPD! Finding a way to let that go will make your life so much better. When I first read about Buddhism, it was a wonderful thing for me to hear about the First Noble Truth or whatever it's called -- life is suffering. Everybody suffers, one way or another, sooner or later. Maybe not from an N-mom, but from illness, loss, heartbreak, misfortunes of all sorts. It's just the human condition. You can either keep struggling and railing against it (and increase your suffering) or reach an 'acceptance' that this is one of your particular sufferings and the best thing you can do is accept it and do what you can to remedy it or move on. Sadly, I think with NPD, there's no remedy other than moving on. I wish you all the best! It sounds like you have SO much going for you!!

I'm glad I came back to check this site and saw your post -- I was reading on another board and found a reference to this study that's linked a brain problem with BPD. Not exactly the same as NPD but this author says that those with BPD have unstable relationships and "fly into rages inappropriately, or become depressed and cannot trust the actions and motives of other people", so it certainly sounds like BPD's have some things in common with NPD's. Here's a link to the article:

http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/08/07/a.new.light.brains.people.with.borderline.personality.disorder

Mercy, you'd think I'd taken this thread over! Sorry to go on and on, but I'm obviously quite obsessed with this subject and feel I have to keep working on understanding it. Take care, everybody, and good luck!

cremix (20) 16 Aug 2009 10:48 PM

Thank you for the reply Griz! Since my post just a few mere hours ago, I went to my mom's house and decided to be brave.

I started packing me things while she sat only yards away, insulting me in ways I still can't believe. She's done it before, but how can a mother tell her daughter that she is 'trash, a whore, will never amount to anything, etc, etc.' I have no idea, but she did. I'm really upset about it but after about 5 minutes I felt numb, peaceful. I remembered what I read on here about how it isn't me. What she is saying isn't true, and it is part of an obsession with keeping me controlled and manipulated. My step-father was so sweet and helped me pack up my boyfriend's truck, who was not allowed in (my mom says she doesn't know him well enough and swears she'd call the police if he took a step inside). My step-dad is going to help me get the rest of my stuff tomorrow.

When I got back here, and was unloading all my stuff, my mom called me and told me she thinks I have a problem with men. She thinks I seek out their attention and that is why I am the way I am. I know I don't.. The reason I *know* this is because I USED to. When I was younger, I was desperate for a male figure because my father was never around but I have absolved that part of who I am and moved forward.

It hurts, and yes, I do wish my mother would love me the way a mother should, but I know she simply cannot. I keep going to say something about her, but my boyfriend shakes his head and hugs me to get me to stop. There isn't any point in repeating what has already been said a thousand times before: None of her behaviour makes sense, nor will it ever.

bearwithme (71) 16 Aug 2009 10:55 PM

Grizelda, no apologies needed here. Your posts are helpful and I enjoy reading them and the reply to cremix. An Cremix, you have a lot going for you given your age. I did not figure this out until my mid 30's. You are one step ahead and don't be afraid of the pain, hurt and anger. It is completely normal and healthy. You are not your mother's keeper and you must not be concerned about her station in life. She is a grown woman with experiences and wisdom of her own and you have to find your own and not let your N mother take that away from you.

I have learned that N's try to make you see the world through their eyes and their eyes only. They try to make their experiences your experiences and challenge what you feel and think. If you disagree or feel differently, they go ballistic.

Cremix, follow your heart as far as moving in with the boyfriend is concerned. If it feels right, then you will know it. Your N mom hasn't the slightest idea what love is all about but you owe it to yourself to find love...true love and true love of yourself. My N mother had so many delusion what love was and what a husband is supposed to do. She fantasized about roses and letters and romance 24/7 even after her and my father's divorce. She was a true [CENSORED] about love and how to really love someone. Now my father is remarried and so happy and that burns her up. I'm talking REALLY burns her up. She cannot get over it and is so angry at my father's wife. She actually thinks she stole her husband!! Helloooo, my N mom was the one who divorced my father!

My dad and his wife, let's call her Jane, have been married over 17 years and my N mom constantly insults and makes fun of Jane. Mind you, my husband and I love Jane and she is extremely giving and loving to my father, she is a wonderful person to me and my family. But N mom can't stand when I talk about Jane or even mention her name, she goes crazy and screams that, "it's always about Jane, Jane this and Jane that, you always defend Jane!" My N mom is so sick about this and it drives my to want to pull my hair out.

I have so much to tell here and I apologize of I go on tangents....it's hard not to.

Thank you Grizelda for you truthful and giving comments.

I will stay tuned here as I hope you all will.

Bearwithme

cremix (20) 16 Aug 2009 11:06 PM

Thank you Bear, I really appreciated hearing that. My boyfriend is someone who was my best friend for a very long time. My mom accused me of moving in with him too fast and that I should live at home. She calls him stupid, etc, when he's quite brilliant and successful. He knows that she's afraid he'll see her for what she is and he's taking me away, so she panics.

I feel so achy inside, but I know I have to do this. The pain is in the moment, and once I'm free from it, I'm sure I'll be happier.

bearwithme (71) 17 Aug 2009 01:30 PM

I hope some of you can help me with this question, especially Beth if she checks in on us here.

My question:

I have a newly turned 2 year old little girl. She's lovely. How do I not turn her in to an N? How do I raise her clear and free from becoming Narcissistic? I think it reveals itself in adolescence, right? How does one become an N???? I'm so afraid of this.

Thanks for helping,

Bearwithme

Grizelda (241) 18 Aug 2009 07:45 PM

Well, you know I always have something to say, despite my dearth of qualifications...

I "believe" I see a pattern in several I've known who I believe have NPD. In my own mother's case, she completely dominated her own mother. She controlled her - told her what to do, even had her change her will to disinherit 3 of her children because my mother was spiteful and jealous of them. If my grandmother didn't kowtow quickly enough, my mother would raise her voice and get forceful - just as she does with me. Like a little girl in a grocery store throwing a tantrum when mommy won't let her have a candybar. My grandma always gave her the candy to shut her up.

I know a woman who has an NPD son (well, in MY opinion he is) and I've watched her w/her 5 kids for many years. She tries to be pushy and gives them lots of orders, even stupid pointless stuff, but then, she often lets them lie to her and wriggle out of things by whining long enough and out-lasting or out-arguing her. Instead of making simple reasonable demands and STICKING BY THEM, she overdoes the micro-managing and is constantly arguing with them over trifles, but frequently doesn't "follow up" - it's ridiculous and they don't take her seriously. Neither would I, in their shoes, because she's childish, too demanding, and doesn't show any self-discipline herSELF, so I can see why they don't think she should demand it of them.

Another mother of a playground "bully" (pretty sure it was NPD) that I knew couldn't stand to see her child lose in ANY WAY and would ignore his cruel vicious behavior to other kids -- yet if any kid so much as looked at him the wrong way, she would throw a fit about it. In fact, I've known two children "bullies" who had mothers like that - who would NEVER admit their child had ever done anything wrong but were quick to blame other kids.

I guess that's about the extent of my observations - except I read that Peter Sellers' mother over-idealized and coddled him, and that as a result, Peter had NPD as an adult.

Oh, and a lady I knew said her mother-in-law was vicious because her MIL's father was vicious. She said what happens when there's an abusive, cruel parent -- the kids go either of two ways -- they become vicious themselves -- or they become wimpy skiddish and anxiety-ridden. That's the only personal experience I've got with the "abuse in childhood can lead to NPD" theory, that Sam Vaknin and many others suggest, but I've never quite bought into. My own personal experience is that when you're abused and objectified, it beats you down and robs you of self-esteem (e.g., makes you a scared little wimp, like me.)

I doubt I've helped you at all -- but I too wish I had had a handle on all this when my kids were little. Neither one of mine is an NPD but I think they worry WAY too much because I'm so neurotic and I managed to inculcate that into them (if that's the right word) -- and I'm really sorry about that.

bearwithme (71) 19 Aug 2009 03:13 PM

I think there is truth to what you said. I think I also read here, or was it somewhere else, anyway maybe in infancy the infant lacks a empathatic "mirror" in the parent. I just wished I knew what that meant.

My Nmom was raised by abusive parents, physical and emotional. My Nmom's mom (Grandma) was a prima-donna and demanded to be the queen of all 7 children. She was N herself. And my Nmom's father was the physical abuser if the children did not treat his wife like a queen, they got beat with belts, chains, etc.

My Nmom was the baby of the family and I hear stories that she was babied beyond belief but still was abused by her parents at the same time. Her older sister (my Aunt) has NPD and her daughter (my cousin) has been NC with her for 6 years. My Nmom's family has a plethora of emotional problems and they all still fight with eachother, some don't talk to others and some of them are just weird--even into their 70's....

I wonder why they can't figure out exactly where NPD comes from?

Thanks for the input.

needtoknow (40) 21 Aug 2009 04:17 PM

Hello Bearwithme. Don't worry about your little girl. Since you are not a narcissist you will raise her with love, kindness and balance - she will be just fine. A narcissist cannot empathize with others, or even see others as separate beings, with feelings and needs of their own. As your little girl grows up and you lovingly teach her (as all children need to be taught): "That hurt little Johnny, look, he's upset. How do you think you would feel if someone did that to you? Now say sorry and play nicely darling...Good girl" In this type of exchange she will learn that just because it didn't hurt her, when she hurt Johnny, it doesn't mean that it didn't hurt Johnny, i.e. Johnny is a separate being to her, with his own feelings and needs etc. Narcissists miss out on this step of recognising they are separate entities from those around them; that is why they insist on you behaving exactly as they want you too, as if you are a limb of theirs. You asked about an empathetic "mirror" my understanding would be that it means to reflect a person back to themselves with empathy, i.e. "I know sweetheart, I understand how you feel (i.e., non-judgemental empathy)...but can you see how so-and-so might feel about it?" (i.e., loving teaching and correction) rather than just harsh criticism. Thinking back to your N parent: a narcissist always reflects you back as bad, a failure, a disappointment (i.e., not empathetic). Perhaps this article you once read was suggesting that narcissistic tendencies are formed when the N does not see themselves reflected well by their own parents. Anyhow, I hope this helps you Bearwithme, and since you are on your guard against all things N, and will give your child the love, support and correction all well balanced children need, you now need to stop being afraid for her and enjoy bringing her up - since fear is something the N instils in us and it needs to be resisted with all your might. Love from needtoknow

needtoknow (40) 21 Aug 2009 04:35 PM

PS Did you all know that there is a new chat room here. I have never used a chat room before but I would love to have a chat with you ladies, who have somehow become a sort of family, because you have been through the same things (I don't know anyone else with a family like mine!) There is probably an easier way in but I am using this link:< http://forums.families.com/new-familiescom-chatroom,t3836 > then and if you are logged in you are in! It's so new that not many people go there yet, but I will hope to catch you in the health and wellness room (the closest one to us)

bearwithme (71) 21 Aug 2009 05:06 PM

Thank you needtoknow, you've made my mind gear up to think about a few things. yes, fear is my best friend and also my enemy. My Nmom raised me and reflected "bad" on me. My mistakes were "bad" or "stupid" especially in my teens when, uh hellooo, teens make stupid mistakes, but to tell them to their face that they are so stupid, really hurts. She never SHOWED me how to do anything...she just got angry if I couldn't do something and then left me doubting if I did it right--there was no reassurance, hence, I got frustrated easily and gave up on any challenge that came my way...oh, I think I just had a breakthrough Oprah "ah-ha moment."

Thanks for the link, I'd love to try it out... see ya there

needtoknow (40) 22 Aug 2009 12:36 PM

hi Bearwithme, I have been in the chat room intermittently all day, while busy on the computer. I saw the message you left on the link page, but did you actually go into the chat room by clicking on the link for it? If you did I mustn't have been there at that time. I will keep going in cos if it gets off the ground it would be real good for people. But back to the post, what was your breakthrough ? You put your finger right on it when you said

needtoknow (40) 22 Aug 2009 12:42 PM

"She never SHOWED me how to do anything...she just got angry if I couldn't do something and then left me doubting if I did it right--there was no reassurance" So you know exactly what to do yourself - teach, correct, loads of encouragement; acknowledgement and praise when she gets stuff right. You'll be just great, and so will she!

bearwithme (71) 25 Aug 2009 11:52 PM

Thanks Needstoknow. I have been in the chat room but no one has been there. I hope I am on the right one, it is the link you shared, right? Then we are on track, just waiting for everyone else I guess.

My Nmom lost her patience so badly that NOW I am always trying to hurry to do things and not piss anyone off. I try to scurry around and hope no one will get on my for being slow, dumb etc. My Nmom never showed me the right way to do things...she just screamed that I was doing it wrong then tried to show me how to do it with vehement anger and frustration; to where I focused on the embarrassment and humiliation instead of learning and growing. My brother experienced this himself and describes it as "her torturing us, her redicule, and her joy in seeing us cry with utter frustration and pain."

I will not do this to my daughter. I told my husband that he had my permission to slap me silly if he EVER heard me say anything of the sort. I know he won't ever do that but I hope I never come to be like my Nmom.

needtoknow (40) 26 Aug 2009 05:47 AM

Hello Bearwithme, I have been logged into the chat room for hours daily (The trick is to log in whenever you go online then just get on with something else, surfing, writing etc, and see if anyone joins us; that way we are not actively waiting. So far they haven't, but one day they will! It just needs patience cos it's not well advertised on the site, but at least the people who read this blog will know about it. I'm in there now while I do this, and I'll probably stay in for as long as I'm on the computer. The log in is: http://www.families.com/login/?Redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.families.com%2Fchat%2F )

It's awful to hear how your mum treated you, and I can feel your fear of disapproval loud and clear. I got over my fear of disapproval after I heard the good news and gave my life to Jesus. Suddenly I KNEW that I was loved unconditionally and that I would NEVER be rejected by Him, despite the mess I was in. And I now belonged to a 'family' of believers who supported me and prayed with me (even if they didn't understand me) and over time I got more and more healed. It was a real battle to overcome all the negative ways I thought about myself. I needed their support, but I didn't 'lie down' on it and make others responsible for my happiness; I used their support (and the Bible) to re-educate my mind about who I really was, and how I ought to feel about myself if I had not been abused. It took years to overcome; but every year I was stronger, less down on myself, less apologetic, more confident, more whole. And last year, after a particularly vicious attack from my Nmom I went through a few months of depression and condemnation, during which I asked the Holy Spirit to give me 'wisdom' about how to deal with my mother. Shortly after this prayer there was an unexpected series of events which culminated in me finding this site and the light-bulb went on! NPD!! That is what is wrong with her!! From that day on the (false) guilt just left me. (The Lord had been trying to get it off my back since I became His child but my family kept heaping it back on.) And this June, i.e., almost a year after learning about NPD He delivered me of the biggest root of destruction an Nmom sows into her children, He delivered me from 'fear'. Curiously it has had one strange but welcome side affect (don't ask me how or why cos I don't know yet, it's only just happened this month) but I have started to cook! Gone are the ready meals, I am cooking my own real meals with meat and everything! Last night we had roast pork in apricot sauce and I kept saying to hubby: "I made this myself!"

There is no short-cut to healing; the process takes time when one has been so deeply and profoundly damaged from so young an age. I don't even know if it is possible purely through psychological means, cos they don't 'heal' you they merely explain things. For me I needed not only to understand psychologically, but I needed to FEEL loved, and to be actually healed emotionally, and the only way I got that was through becoming a child of the Father. On the same day I asked Jesus into my life He took away the desire to commit suicide, as only He can. In those early days (15 years ago) when I was still deeply disturbed, isolated and broken He used to manifest His presence in my room when I prayed and read the Bible, and fill it with the sense of His presence - it was wonderful. Once I had a friend staying over and I woke up in the middle of the night and drew in my breath, I could feel the Holy Spirit permeating the air, filling the room. I breathed: "You're here!" under my breath so as not to wake my friend in the camp bed; and I put my hand up to reach out and touch the air, as if I could somehow touch Him. But my friend was already awake and she whispered back in awe: "Can you feel the Holy Spirit, He's filling the room. I had a terrible pain in my stomach and I asked Jesus to heal it, and then He came."

Feeling His love, knowing Him and hearing His Words: "My father and my mother have forsaken me, but the Lord will take me up." (Psalm 27:10), were absolutely necessary to my own journey of recovery, since learning about something and being actually healed are two separate things. We can learn what we will, but we can't heal ourselves, only Jesus can do that if we will ask Him, as He rises up in our lives with healing in His wings (Malachi 4:2). I hope that one day you will learn not to scurry around, and to stand up against and reprove anyone who implies that you are slow or dumb. The embarrassment and humiliation wasn't your fault, it was your mums. And please don't EVER give anyone 'permission to slap you' for any reason, no matter who they are or if they'll ever do it. I would join with your husband in saying to you: "Don't talk about yourself that way. Don't put yourself down. Start to treat yourself the way you think you should treat others - with respect." You are not like your Nmom, so you need to take your focus off of her and start to focus on GOOD role models for yourself and learn from them what you WOULD like to be like; what makes those good role models good? God bless you His precious one.

bearwithme (71) 27 Aug 2009 10:39 AM

Needtoknow: What a beautiful post! I read your words with such attention and the details popped right off my screen and into my heart. I particularly love the mention of your "cooking" and opening yourself up to new things, etc. I am so happy for you--I love to cook myself and my husband loves my cooking.

I have turned to God on this one. As I'm at a crossroads with how to deal with my Nmother. Finding out that she has NPD 7 years ago, changed my life and also opened me up like you can't imagine. It's just the long road to realizing that to have any kind of relationship with my Nmother I have to put up with some of her viciousness; OR, if I decide to go NC (no contact) then it results in a period of guilt and mourning. But in that, I have already mourned the death of my mother as she was not a real mother in the sense of the actual word. She did not know how to properly love and have a caring relationship with her children, we were ports to her happiness in life and she used us as a gauge as to her happiness or sadness. She was an angry woman, very angry. Angry at life, angry at her family (although she would NEVER admit to that truth), angry at my father.

I went through a period of being angry myself after I found out that she had NPD. I was so angry at her I wanted to punish her and get back at her. My therapist told me to allow myself plenty of anger because I was never able to show it. He told me to make sure I felt it and knew where it came from. He also told me that my anger would lead to many, many more emotions that I had supressed for nearly 36 years. It was a miricale!!!

I do owe it to God. He was the one who lead me to therapy so that I go the "tools" I needed to deal and learn about NPD and the realities of my Nmom.

He's been good to me. As I struggle with this, he needs to be beside me and take the reigns every once in a while.

Cancergirl (11) 07 Sep 2009 08:10 PM

Hello all! I feel so much emptiness and pain:( My mother has many of the characteristics of an nmom. She brutally abused me physically as a child, stripped me of any feelings of self worth, told me stories of my father's infidelities when I was only 6, told me men are no good, tore down her own mom, drove my father crazy till he died of a heart attack when I was 8, the list goes on and on. I remember when I was only 5 or 6 she would slap me and emotionally abuse me because she thought I looked at her in the wrong way. Fast forward to 24 years later and she yelled at me and belittled me in front of my mother and father in law. She even told me when I was 10 that my father was planning to sexually abuse me ( he had died at that time ). What I need desperate help on now is that she's starting to create havoc with my own kids. The problem is I need her help because my husband was involved in a car accident and is head injured. Please help, I really need it. Anyone else in the same situation?

Grizelda (241) 07 Sep 2009 11:07 PM

Your situation sounds so incredibly difficult - my heart goes out to you. From what I've read here and elsewhere, people with NPD get WORSE as they get older. However, and I believe it was Beth who said this, the effect on the grandchildren is rarely as bad as it is on their actual children. They're once-removed from the nightmare - PLUS you have the good fortune of knowing about NPD and you can learn so much about it online and in books.

But I hate to belittle the seriousness of your situation by even using the words "good fortune." Your husband's head injury -- is it so severe that you must depend on your mother financially or materially? If not, it might be best to cut ties, especially as you say she's causing problems with your children. If you can't do that - as your children get older you can try to explain to them about NPD so they won't blame themselves, but in the mean time, oh dear. There are many things to try - but I don't know of an easy answer.

My "plan" (before my mother got so upset at my setting limits and forced NC on me by her mega-tantrum) -- anyway my plan was to keep a notebook in my hand (or pocket) and write down every cruel thing she said and did, in front of her, in order to (1) calm myself down, and (2) hopefully embarrass or annoy her into behaving better towards me and my family. However, if your mother is physically violent, I think you just have to do more and defend yourself and your family.

If you need to vent, maybe returning here and checking out other message boards could help? I find reading others' stories to be incredibly strengthening, and I found Kathy Krajco's book to really bolster my courage (and make clear how horrid this disorder is and the damage it does to anyone close.) Best of luck to you!!

Grizelda (241) 07 Sep 2009 11:25 PM

I just realized that Kathy's book, as wonderful as it is, can't really help you if you must stay in the relationship with your mother - and Anna Valerious "Narcissists Suck" has much of Kathy's content in the chapters of her blog -- the message of both is you must get yourself (and your family) free.

The last part of Susan Forward's book "Toxic Parents" has some excellent advice on setting limits -- and including shipping, it's only $6 from amazon.com. Some of her advice, starting on p. 320:

1 - Tell your mother that she doesn't have the right to be cruel or belittling and if she starts, you will stop it;

2 - Tell her you know this will upset her, but you are going to start saying "No" a lot more than you have in the past.

This was advice to a person with specific problems, which may not apply to you, but I've read of others who've been able to toughen up and diminish the harsh behavior -- of course, I was never able to do that, but it HAS been done. Take care!

Cancergirl (11) 08 Sep 2009 07:54 PM

Thank you so much Grizelda, you've been so kind:) I'm financially totally independent, thank goodness so I don't need my mom for that. However, I need her to pinch hit with the kids every now and then because of my husband's brain injury. His injury is quite bad in that he is manic depressive, physically he's OK. I really want to go 'no contact' but I'm so scared. Also, due to her awful n behaviour, I don't have that much confidence to reach out to people in my family for help. Some days I can't even breathe. The thing is that it's so unfair being the child of an nmom, here we are blogging and they are snickering about how WE have a problem. I guess I will get through this with time but now I'm so drained and tired>

usingmyhead (5) 22 Sep 2009 11:07 AM

Cancergirl, Of course you have a problem - your Nmom and how to deal with her while you are raising kids and caring for an injured husband.

You don't know if it is a good idea to reach out to your family. But I bet you know friends, acquaintences, co-workers, parents of kids in your child's schools or activities, and babysitters who can carpool, do playdates, and/or be a mother's helper periodically.

--- This guy told an acquaintance "Well, my brother sincerely thinks he is a chicken". So the acquaintance said "Wow! Can you take him to a shrink and get him cured?".

"Cured!?" says the first guy. "Are you kidding me? We need the eggs!"

-- A guy was searching under a streetlight, when an acquaintance comes up and asks him what he's doing. "I'm looking for my keys". So the aquaintance starts to help the guy look. After a couple minutes he says "I can't find them. Where exactly were you when you dropped them?".

"About halfway up the block" "Shouldn't you look over there?" "The light's better here."

--- The brother can't lay eggs and the keys aren't under the streetlight. Only you can decide if your mother can help your family or only "create havoc" by pinch-hitting. None of these situations are fair, but I bet you can work with other people of good will and find a way through it.

My heart goes out to you. Good luck.

FedUp1111 (10) 23 Sep 2009 08:24 AM

I am amazed that there are so many people out there dealing with the NM....reading these entries makes me realize I am not crazy or mean for setting boundaries. I just told my mother that I do not like being around her because she is always saying something critical, hurtful, and degrading to me. I told her I do not want to be a part of all the family events she is always planning because I never know when she is going to embarrass me with one of her zingers. She is very mad at me and I know she will be telling all the family how terrible I am for speaking to her in such a fashion...after all she has done for me. Mom has done this to all the family members...you do as she wants or you will suffer. The thing is..is that I have decided to stand up to her and not be blackmailed by what she will do to me or my image.

bearwithme (71) 23 Sep 2009 09:22 PM

Fedup111: good for you!! I was in the same exact situation and in some sorts, I still am to this day. I would like to tell my Nmom so bad that I don't want her to come over because she always has a snide comment or says something under her breath. My Nmom is so strange and I can't stand it. After I stood my ground to her one day, and told her she is NOT to speak to me like a child anymore and to stay away from me, she went to her family, all my aunts and uncles, and told them I was a horrible daughter and a complete dissappointment just like my brother (who was a drug addict and alcoholic and hadn't been seen in a year). Yet, I was just like him. She wouldn't speak to me and when I tried, all she did was cry like a big fat baby. She's the loser!

I get mad as all get out when I think of this stuff!!

FedUp1111 (10) 24 Sep 2009 06:41 AM

Bearwithme: Thanks for the support. My NM does the same thing you mentioned...she will tell everyone how terrible you are if you speak up to her and try to set boundaries. She says hurtful things to everyone, but if anyone says anything back to her she throws a fit. She will also say you are too sensitive if you let her know she hurt your feelings. Crazy making crap!!! Does anyone in your family see what your mom does or do they take her side?

VidaLoca (5) 24 Sep 2009 05:25 PM

About 25 years ago I went NC with my NM. I had gone NC with my abusive father about 5 years before that. There are several RNs in the family, and one who is now a family counselor. The diagnosis of NM has been a group consensus. That was reached long after I wrote her off, though I did not have the information I know now. The NC decision was reached because I decided she would pit husband against wife, sibling against sibling, and parent against child. There was no way I was going to allow this sickness to continue with my children's generation. We also have severe depression hitting several in the family, and bi-polar disorder as well. My baby sister took her own life (bi-polar and severely depressed, not medically managed well withing the system), several years ago. What I didn't know, as I was not only NC with my NM, but out of the family loop, due to their rejection of anybody who rocked the boat, was that my baby sister had also been molested by our older brother. The family covered it up, led by the NM, and my baby sister paid the ultimate price, leaving behind two beautiful teen daughters. I was raped by the same brother when a young teen, and finally shared the horror of my life, on top of both parents' mental illness, the NM, many suicide and manipulative acts by both parents, with my surviving sister. She begged me to keep quiet, stuff it, as she said our brother would kill himself within the hour if I exposed him. I did not want his wife to suffer, so I complied, tho now I feel he was not deserving of my silence, nor was anybody else in my immediate family.

I have done well enough for myself since severing ties with these wackos. I raised three sons, and left their father, for reasons unrelated to the NM. I now have a good husband, and we live in another state from the rest of the family.

I have had peace over my decision for many years. The reason I looked for more information on the web about Narcissism was because our brother, the perp, passed away recently. I am certain it was a passive suicide, if not an actual suicide. The results aren't officially in yet. He nursed his depression, cultivated it, stayed in bed days on end, for years. Non-compliant with meds, didn't take care of his medical conditions, didn't care for the last ten years.

It is difficult to put into words how I feel, but basically, I can mourn the brother I had as a little girl, before he turned into the monster and sex abuser, that I hated. I have decided this is the logical way to handle this death.

Now, on to what's deviling me right now. The family members, mostly siblings, have taken on the roles assigned them by the NM, and I was always and still am the scapegoat. My siblings choose not to see the effect it has had taking on those roles within the family, either on them, or on me. When baby sis died, I was excluded from most of the mourning and planning process. The NM even insisted I be told to stay away from my sis' calling hours and funeral, with the news delivered by my surviving sister (a counselor!) I refused, and attended the calling hours and service, as well as went to the gravesite. Can you say dirty looks?!

Now when the brother/perp dies, the half-brother decides to not call me. He calls my sister to tell her. She is the only one who knows how I was abused, not only by both parents (my father physically abused my mother, who abused him right back with whatever was nearby, scissors, etc). So she lets me read a public announcement on Facebook posted by my half-brother, rather than calling to tell me. Her reason - she was on vacation. OK....So, despite my very mixed feelings I had the task of notifying extended family of the death, as it wasn't the aunts and uncles and cousins' fault my brother was a monster. They only knew him as the nephew/cousin, and I knew they would want to know.

Now I've opened up a can of worms, as I've advised my relatives I shall not be attending their memorial to listen to their grieving, as he was a monster. They all know now what he did to both me and my baby sister, and they are furious with me, just like they denied the abuse of my sis. I really don't care any more, as they are all suffering various degrees of sickness/co-dependency, whatever, from being raised by nutsy parents, particularly the NM.

Anyhow, I'm seeing that it's not possible to have sibling relations with most of them, just like with the NM, so am going to have to go NC with a couple of my siblings as well. They just refuse to cease this role-playing and I'm not buying into it.

I know we haven't actually had a formal diagnosis on their mother (she is no longer my mother). But take my word for it, been through the bullying, excessive demands, outrageous manipulating, etc, and she's classic.

I have been previously successful with my NC with my own NM, and can do this again. But it's still a grieving process to bury the relationships. I know I have to do it, and I will.

My baby sister's daughters, my nieces, are coming to terms that their mother was not a liar, despite her own mental diagnoses. They feel some vindication for their mother, with me bringing my abuse to light in the family. In fact, we're able to laugh a little now, about the rest of them and their 'denial', family name preservation games. We'll get through it and be stronger for it. I no longer have to cry through my prayers at night for God to not let my brother ever abuse anybody ever again. I no longer have the need to pray that he and his wife would never have a child, for fear he would have a ready victim 24/7.

Wow, this is hard though.

LeahinLove (9) 30 Sep 2009 08:58 AM

hi and HELP !! This is my first time here. I realized a few years ago that my mother has NPD. I always knew it was SOMETHING. Finally has a name. I have come to terms with my relationship with my mother. She doesn't push my buttons anymore although it's kinda fun to watch her try. My problem lies with moving on with my own life and the scars left behind. It is my understanding that when choosing a partner, we tend to end up with what is familiar. I was married for many years (over 20) to a man who ( I found out later) had been in the SPECIAL class in school.He was handsome, kind and charming, but couldn't make a decision for himself. He was very needy and simply followed me around for years. I finally left and almost right away ended up with a man who is bi-polar. That ended after a few years and a lot of heart ache. For a short time a few years ago, I dated a man who had Asperger's Syndrome. That was when my research began. Why do I always end up with men who are so messed up? You probably already know the familiar similarities among the three, NPD, bi-polar and Asperger's. So, I'm fine as long as I'm alone. My picker is broken. I run from a relationship at the first sign of trouble. I seem to always end up with needy men. I'm afraid I'll always be alone. So with all that said. How can I move beyond the "mark" left on me from the mother who raised me. Can I ever have a healthy relationship with a man who is mentally and emotionally balanced? Thank you

Beth McHugh (13211) 15 Oct 2009 02:25 AM

Hi Leahinlove, we all tend to be attracted to what is familiar. Even if the familiar is destructive, like alcoholism, for example. Makes no sense on one level but psychologically it makes perfect sense. You are attracted to these men because of your upbringing but as you have successfully extracted yourself physically from your mother's condition you will be able to work towards finding a more suitable partnr. But something is keeping you hooked to unsuitable men, and this would imply that there is still a link to your mother. Try journaling the similarity between your mother's behavior and one or more of these men you have dated. Doing this ma be useful in locating what is keeping you stuck. If you need additional help you can cpontact me at http://yourolinecounselor.com

Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 22 Oct 2009 05:19 PM

Just a reminder to all readers of the narcissism blogs at I have set up a forum specifically for adult children of NPDs. You can find it under "Forums" at my website at http://yourolinecounselor.com

Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (13211) 22 Oct 2009 05:34 PM

Just a reminder to all readers of the narcissism blogs that I have set up a forum specifically for adult children of NPDs. You can find it under "Forums" at my website at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Best wishes, Beth

inpainforthem (12) 05 Nov 2009 01:05 PM

I am the step Mother of 3 beautiful children. When I fell in love with their Father I assumed that the extreme behaviors of his ex-wife were because she was angry about the divorce.

As our relationship grew it became obvious that her anger, wrath, and vindictiveness were unreasonable on every level.

I found that this woman had no boundaries - homes were entered, calls made to the workplace, family etc. Accusations of dating, cheating, stealing or whatever she could to discredit him were shared with everyone - including the children. She never held back her wrath - regardless of whether the children were around or not - She would scream obscenities, punch him and make ugly scenes. She made it her primary job to ensure that the children knew exactly why they were to hate their Father... all the typical spurned woman tricks. Only it doesn't abate, this has been going on for years.

As soon as she could associate a name with me I became the reason for the end of her marriage. Fabulous stories were created about years of cheating debauchery etc. The kids were told to hate me and why, and general hostility in all ways from this woman toward me. She took great liberty with time-lines and was able to spin a fabulous story that painted her a very sad victim. The lies were extreme.

She verbally attacked me in public - at which point I calmly told her "I don't do public scenes you need to leave." - How did she handle calmly being told to leave? She went home and told her children what she'd done, that I'd deserved it, and that she'd made me cry - (hardly)

The examples of her behavior were so far off of anything I could understand that I started looking for other answers. I mean, no one, that is sane would do these things. The dillusions, the outright lies, the subtle manipulation, the extreme rages, she really has no boundaries. I sought counseling, as I wasn't sure if I could enter a marriage with this as a part of it. I spoke with two counselors, both who directed me toward NPD, but along with some other issues that did not seem to fit. I started reading - and many of her behaviors fit this condition, it became indisputable.

But this blog is not about me. Once I understood this thing that is narcassissm - and that it wasn't part of her nature to take accountability for a failed marriage, or frankly anything else - that it had to be someone elses fault..., I was better able to cope with her. I was the obvious target of her wrath because it let her off the hook for the demise of her marriage. I stopped caring what she thought of me. Giving this any level of emotional energy would be a waste of time. The kids see how we live - very straight arrows, no affairs, no flirting, they observe none of the things she has proclaimed I/we are. They experience a mostly calm, loving, caring, nurturing - NO DRAMA household. So in the end they can decide for themselves what is truth and what is not.

However, I have seen a larger problem. The abuse I see doled out from this woman to her children is the hardest thing I have ever had to watch. I want so much to take these children away - On my worst parenting day I am leagues better. I am now seeking to understand how best to provide these children with the tools they will need to deal with their Mother. That is why I sought out this internet site.

Her emotional extortion is so skillfully doled out that it is almost artful. They dare not speak well of their Father, me or anything in this household; if they should be that brave, well then the Wrath of MOTHER would descend on them like nothing believable. She is formidable.

However, not all of her behaviors fit within the narcissistic categories; at least not that I've read about. For instance she will take things from the kids and hide them. Sometimes for weeks, sometimes forever. Eventually they will either find it in a location they would never have put it. Or she will find it and accuse them of being irresponsible. Drivers licenses, debit cards, video games, etc.

Yet, another example of her behaviors that might not be narcissistic, but are just as harmful - making up illnesses, conditions or issues for the children. Symptoms are made up or blown out of proportion, then only a specialist will do, tall tales are created around the illness to validate its existence. Many times the stories are supported by something she herself supposedly went through as a child. example (I was diagnosed incorrectly with 'whatever' as a child and suffered unduly through childhood, child 1,2 or 3 has the same thing.) It appears that she does this to gain exposure and be seen as an involved parent. Any appointment that is made by the Mother is made during the school day so that she can be seen withdrawing them from school - evidently there is nothing in it for her, if she were to make appt's. for after school or during breaks. No one will notice.

I got to observe firsthand a tiny piece of what they must endure in her home, and what led me to look into this condition to see what NPD's are capable of toward their children.

Bear with me as I relate a story so trivial yet so profound to those involved.

My stepdaughter and her Father were having lunch. The daughter wanted a special kind of soup that she enjoys that her Mother makes. The Father asks the daughter - "Why don't you get the recipe from your Mom, then you can have the good stuff here anytime you want it."... this inadvertently puts the daughter in a heck of a dilemma. So she replies with "No, that was a recipe handed down from her Mom to her - she wouldn't want me to have it." The Father stumbles in with a "Well that doesn't make sense - since you are the daughter it is right that it be handed down to you as traditional.".... The daughter is now deeper in potential trouble.. what to do.. "Well Dad, it has a secret ingredient and I don't think Mom would want to give it out."... At this point the Father is starting to get it and lets the conversation fade. All goes back to normal. The Father in an e-mail to the Mother comments on the conversation, thinking it is a good illustration of how the kids are perceiving tensions between the two households...

Unwittingly - this was the ultimate mistake, highlighting to the Mother how her animosity and hate-fullness have directly impacted her own daughter. Now she has to deflect and the only person to do that to is her own daughter. The daughter takes the call from her Mother and comes back to help me make dinner as a very quiet sullen child. As soon as her Father gets home from work she comes in and unleashes on him.

From my perspective it was a horrific thing to watch. This little girl simply spew hate-fullness onto her Father - it was almost as if she was channeling her Mother. She was utterly miserable with how her words had been used to hurt her. Her own Mother put such a burden on her that she had to get rid of it. The Father was stunned and simply apologized for saying anything to her Mother - "I will never put you in this position again!" The daughter leaves the room pronouncing that the conversation is over.

This story is an illustration of why I am posting. I feel absolutely useless in this role. How can I protect these children.

Beth McHugh (13211) 08 Nov 2009 04:50 PM

Hi inpainforthem, it's possible that this lady has a dual diagnosis, that is there is another condition present with the NPD. Also you didn't mention the ages of the children. The latter affects how you and your hsuband might deal with the situation. You are doing the correct thign in providing a stable loving environment for them, and hopefully time and maturity will help them to see most of the truth of their mother. Depending on their age, there are differing ways of handling the situation. There is also a concern that one of the children may go on to develop the disorder thmeselves as it does run in families and is often triggered by trauma. That is why it is important for you both to be firm, stable and loving. Educating the children amy be a slow option but again that depends on their age. If you need further help you can always contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com Best wishes, Beth

inpainforthem (12) 10 Nov 2009 10:11 AM

Beth, their ages are 18, 15, 13 - boy, boy, girl in that order. Thank you for your response.

Beth McHugh (13211) 10 Nov 2009 06:32 PM

Hi inpain for them, as the children are quite old and able to understand adult concepts, you may wish to consider having family therapy. Apart from narcissism, there are indicators of histrionic personality disorder but that would need to be determined for an accuarate diagnosis. Paersonality disorders are very difficult to deal with alone and that is why having family therapy where the behaviors are brought into the open and discussed may be useful. If the mother has NPD it is unlikely she will ever pursue counseling, it is not possible for a narcissist to admit imperfection. On the other hand, if HPD is present she would be attracted to the attention. Whatever, these children, especially the oder two, are of an age that having an explanation for their mother's behavior can only benefit them if they actually accept it. The latter can sometimes be problematic tha tis why I am suggesting family therapy. Best wishes, Beth