Dealing with a Narcissistic Family Member

Lucky7 (190) 19 May 2007 07:42 PM

I Have a completely self absorbed sister. She has been like that all her life, she is now almost 40. Thanks for this series on narcissists.

Beth McHugh (12962) 27 May 2007 12:30 AM

Sadly the incidence of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is increasing in the population. I believe personality disorder are just manifestations of a delayed emotional development. With the increase in the phenomenon of enabling adult children, it is no surprise that the condition is on the increase.

trustworthy (5) 29 Aug 2007 05:59 AM

My step son was raised by a narcissist mother. She threw him out 2 weeks before graduation as child support was ending. He has come a long way in the year he has lived with us, but has a great deal of anger towards his mom. He knows she is mentally ill, but he still wants to know "why" she treated him the way she did, lies, etc. How can I help him. We have a good relationship and I try and explain to him that she will never apologize or change but he wants answers. He starts to shake when he talks about her. He is working, going to a technical college, and dates so in all other areas seems to be doing well. How do I help him with the anger he feels towards her?

Beth McHugh (12962) 29 Aug 2007 03:58 PM

Hi Trustworthy, first of all, it might help if he read the series of articles I have written on Narcissistic Personality Disorder that you will find by clicking on that term in the list of disorders I cover on this page. That will help to give him some insight into his mother's behavior. Coping with the rage and grief associated with having a parent like this is something else. If you or he thinks he might benefit by talking it through with me, simply click on "Beth McHugh" which appears at the end of the above article. Narcissism has very negative effects on the growing child, who has no idea that their parent has a disorder such as this. At least he has found out relatively early in life, and and can act to rectify the situation. I hope it all works out well for your step-son.

teresa2007 (10) 22 Sep 2007 03:23 PM

I'm baffled. I've been reading about NPD b/c I have a sister-in-law who is very hard to deal with & be around. She's hot/cold. I can see her one day and she's warm & friendly and a snot/rude the next. She hates for other people to get compliments. Christmas is always at her house. It's miserable. She gives a warm welcome to one sister in law who buys her a table arrangement every year and cold chills to everyone else. She gets very jealous of a brother who bought a new house. She argues that his house is NOT bigger than hers and gets very upset if someone compliments his house. She has an extremely BITING personality. She may ask you how you are but she'll ask it with an edge. However, she is sweet as pie when she wants something which leaves people feeling that she is extremely phony. She talks to her husband and child like they're dogs but when she's out in public she puts on the "perfect family" face! I'm baffled... I feel that this is causing me so much stress I don't even want to go to family functions if she will be there.

Beth McHugh (12962) 22 Sep 2007 03:34 PM

Hi Teresa, to be certain your SIL has NPD, it would be necessary for a formal diagnosis to be made. If she indeed has NPD, she will never go to a therapist herself, because she would be incapable of having sufficient insight into her condition. It is those around her who would be in the most pain. If you feel counseling would benefit you, simply go to my website at http://youronlinecouselor.com Alternatively, your best bet is to avoid her as much as possible until you learn suitable protective skills to deal with her. Try to support your brother or brother in law as much as possible, but not get caught up in her antics. Best wishes, Beth

StrugglingSon (5) 18 Nov 2007 02:10 PM

Not sure who I am writing this too, but I need to share it. I have believed I would be of some value or another to my father and step mother for as long as I can remember. I have never managed to receive anything but fleeting praise regardless of the many things I have accomplished or contributed to. I served 23 years in the USAF with oversight for large numbers of fellow airmen and really sacrificed at a personal level in the process. My father passed away just after I retired and my step mother has tried to run 2 or more small family businesses since then. She stated that she felt I would be able to achieve important things by moving near their home and "helping" with the business. When I asked what my role would be, she explained that in time, if it was something I wanted to do and was good at" she would have me as a partner. When I asked what that meant in terms of income, she assailed me for being greedy. At this moment I feel foolish, but guess where I am? Living in my step moms guest home with my new wife with my first baby on the way. From what I have just read, I am feeling embarrassed, but still with the hope I can overcome the criticism and the out-of-reach carrot that I have been chasing in one way or another for most of my life. Here I am, I grown man and what I know cannot seem to overcome what I feel... To illustrate what I am trying to assess, please take our latest conversation in abbreviated form: Me: why am I being paid less than all other sales staff? Her: Because you have a pension and they don't. Me: But that is only because I gave 23 years to the military. Her: While you chose to have a secure paycheck, these folks were struggling with lost investments and start up businesses and now have little or nothing to rely on. Me: But when I came, you promised me $X per month and X% commission. You have cut my draw by 1/2 and we still haven't talked about our long term agreement that was supposed to be on paper within the first couple weeks. Her: You are too focused on income and not enough on gettng more business. One minute, I am the wonderful son to clients, community activists and neighbors, the next moment over dinner or in a discussion in the yard I am lazy and greedy etc. I can remember countless things like this; Xmas of my 16th year, my step sister, her daughter (who I love dearly) got a new horse (she already had 2) and saddle. I received a box of See's candy and believe it or not, a rake.... I know this sounds like over dramatic, but I received a rake and my biological brother received a new pair of glasses the same year... Blatant, unfair,whatever.... But my brother stays away and I keep trying to achieve something... My wife (my third) is getting fed up and I have decided that when she is done with this whole mess I am going to leave as well since my way has not been very fruitful. My step mom undermined my previous two marriages at almost every turn. Sometimes publicly, sometimes not. To be fair, she undermines every relationship of every one of my brothers and sisters in not-so-subtle ways. Not one in-law will come to the house. So please...help me understand why I keep believing this can change in the face of all this and so much more?

Beth McHugh (12962) 18 Nov 2007 02:27 PM

Hi Struggling Son, first try not to let yourself feel foolish to be your age and struggling, as you say, with your stepmom. People with NPD are a struggle to anyone, and it often takes years to realize exactly what is going on. In fact, it is mostly in our 30s and 40s that we are able to step back and assess the situation, and finding out that NPD exists is often an eye-opener for many people. If you think you need additional help in this situation, please contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com Best wishes, Beth

JustMJ (26) 22 Nov 2007 09:54 AM

Hi, Struggling Son. I'm just new here but I wanted to say not to be embarrassed. I guess that's telling you how you shouldn't feel, and I don't mean it that way. But your aren't the first person to be exploited by another and you won't be the last.

Your stepmom is taking care of herself, and now you have to take care of *yourself.*

Counselling might be really helpful. I'm no expert so I can't say a whole lot, but a behavioral therapist really helped me at a terrible time in my life. She was a social worker in the county behavioral health clinic and I didn't have to pay a lot. In 6 weeks she gave me hope and the realization that I really *could* make my life better. I was 50 years old at the time. We can always make good changes :)

Cheers, MJ

JustMJ (26) 22 Nov 2007 09:57 AM

Oops, sorry. I meant to add that one of the things that gave me the most hope was that she made me believe that I was no special, "doomed", case. In fact, I was no different from anybody else. I never really believed that before therapy with her. A little hope goes a long way. OK, now I'll shut up :)

Beth McHugh (12962) 22 Nov 2007 01:40 PM

JustML, you are certainly right, anyone can fall under the influence of a narcissist and as a psychologist I hold out that there is hope for anyone in this situation. In fact, I maintain that there is hope for improvement for any situation as long as there is motivation and commitment on the part of the client!

JFJ (11) 30 Nov 2007 12:07 PM

I have a narcissistic MIL, For over six years this woman berated, stalked and threatened me in an effort to keep me from taking her son. My husband and I had enough when she threatened my life again and threatened to take our child. She had the power to do these things. GFIL is a mafia type. We moved away with no contact for over seven years though MIL still stalked us. A year ago BIL contacted us to say MIL has terminal cancer. I didn't want to contact them, but my husband chose to. Now, all he does is ask me when she's going to die. He was abused by her and his sister when he was young. He hates them, but had to make this contact for closure I guess. I love him so much, but I still feel resentment that he would contact them after his promise to me. He understands my feelings, but just wants to act like things never happened. How can I continue to support my husband and be true to myself?

Beth McHugh (12962) 30 Nov 2007 02:39 PM

Hi JFJ, when you say "things" do you mean the abuse, or the recent visit?

JFJ (11) 30 Nov 2007 04:19 PM

Things meaning all of the abuse. He knows it all happened and talks about it freely, but whenever I say anything against his family he acts as if I'm exaggerating and it makes me feel victimized again by the only other one who reallly understood what was going on. He says I'm going on hatred, but for me it's more like fear. Then he puzzles me by brandishing his hatred when he talks about her impending death. It's confusing.

Beth McHugh (12962) 30 Nov 2007 04:29 PM

It could be that he is only comfortable talking about it on his terms, but if you say anything against his family, he reverts to an old childlike loyalty. Plus the truth coming from others is always more difficult to handle because it's out of the victim's control, so to speak. If you feel you would like help with this, please visit my website at http://youronlinecounselor.com

It would be beneficial if he could sort this out before his mother dies, as it will then be compounded by grief issues. That's not impossible to deal with, of course, just easier if the narcissism pain could be addressed prior.

Larryzzzz (5) 09 Jan 2008 02:21 PM

Perhaps someone could give me some advice. I have a younger brother who has made a habit of cutting me down in family social situations. This has gone on for many years. Recently while visiting family, I was having dinner with a group of siblings, wives and friends. My brother proceeded to make a blosterous comment concerning how "cheap" I was. So when I responded up that I paid for all the drinks at his engagement party and gave him and his new bride a generous wedding gift, his reply was, "that wasn't s%#t". The same type of comment was made about me, by my brother, at my parents house the next day. I responded by asking him why he was treating me this way? His response was, "You need it". This was a last straw of sorts and I have not spoken to my brother in over a year. I have always been the peacemaker during past incidents but have lately decided that enough is enough. The rest of my family is non-supportive so I am stuck dealing with this myself. My strategy, as of now, is to stay away from him. Unfortunately, most all my family live in one area of the midwest and I live on the Texas gulf coast. I really don't have any desire to visit my family any more because I don't want to deal with my brother. His verbal abuse has begun to affect me as I can't seem to forget about it. I really can't understand why a family member would treat me this way. What should I do?

Beth McHugh (12962) 09 Jan 2008 02:34 PM

Hi Larry, this must be a difficult situation for you. There are several options you could consider. If you require, you may like to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if you need professional guidance in dealing with this problem.

TheCageyLens (6) 15 Jan 2008 10:51 AM

Well, I too feel rather silly for ever listening to my narcissistic mother. She really had me fooled over the years of weekly and sometimes even daily long distance phone conversations. She and my father are getting up in years and I was the "choosen one" to "take care" of them since they had done so much for me after becoming a single parent. I was living in a different country and far enough away from home I should have stayed! Several months ago I decided to move back "home" where I was told I could go to school and finish my BA and be in a better position to care for my children in the future. Since I didn't want to move the children in the middle of the school year I asked if it was ok to bring them up 4 months before I moved because I gave my boss a full semester notice. During that time I realized I had made a mistake by moving them and the daily phone calls complaining about my children was depressing. I even took vacation time twice to visit and help but it was never enough. I honestly felt that my mother hated my children. I wanted to move them back and she wouldn't "let me". I decided to proceed and over the Christmas holidays I arrived into town Thursday before Christmas. I called and received an interview at a company my "best friend" worked and went for an interview Friday. I was told to proceed with necessary checks and a few classes and I believe I would have started the job immediately after receiving the necessities. This was not MY career choice but since I was moving back into a country I had not lived in for 18 years and was moving to a much smaller community, I didn't feel I would find decent paying work in my field. Even though I was told I could go back to school I knew I had to work to contribute. I walked away from a detached boyfriend, a job that I truly loved and a house I had invested $10,000 into. I didn't want to walk away from bills feeling it illegal but I still have not paid them off to date. That will come in time. My mother insisted that I stop paying my mortgage to forclose on the house and thought I should walk away from all my bills. Christmas eve I started pink eye and had to spend $65.00 on a walk in clinic and an antibiotic. The week between Christmas and New Years was a write off being sick and since I had not filed paperwork for geared to income housing, health insurance, etc... I felt pressured into doing it on New Year's Eve Day. I couldn't complete my paperwork necessary as I had not officially "landed" in the country I was returning to so I displeased HER! On New Years Day she told me I could not live in her house! After all that! She told me I abandoned my children since I had not contributed financially even though my parents received $200 per month from the government for the children to stay with them. My son had one month left in a semester in high school and I didn't want him to loose all his credits he had worked for and he did not want to move because he now had made new friends, and had a girlfriend. My daughter came with me and we are now living at my sister's house. She is happy to be out of grandma's house and has a new understanding of grandma. This I find very unfortunate. My daughter has a great relationship with my neice who is only 8 months older than she. Things are going well here. I have an interview at a local college coming up and it would be a miracle if I got the job after just moving back!! I'm really afraid that my mother won't allow my son to leave. He wants to stay but the more I read about this disorder the more afraid I am that it will have a lasting affects on him since he is a teenager. Oh, I forgot to mention that one week before I left to return home my mother kicked my son out of her house while I was 10 hours drive away. After several hours and another phone call I calmly asked her if she could wait til I arrived and she did. I worry that at any given whim she will kick him out again and I need to move him at the end of this semester. My problem is that my son doesn't want to move now. I calmly explained to him that we only have a few more years together and then he'll be going off to college himself. My mother insists that he is ok staying there!?!?!?! I think now she is only doing this to hurt me and now my son tells me I can't afford to keep him!!!! Should I insist that my son move now or wait til the end of the school year if he makes it that long?!?

Beth McHugh (12962) 17 Jan 2008 03:15 PM

Hi CageyLens, How old is your son?

Unafraid (20) 04 Mar 2008 09:45 AM

I just had a comment for Struggling Son. Don't beat yourself up for not recognizing what your step mother your step mother was and is. As Beth said, it is very hard to see things clearly when the pattern is idealizing and then devaluing. If you want to hear my story about my NPD mother and husband of 21 years, you can look at the dealing with a Narcissistic Mother blogs. It took me about 18 years to figure out my husband could not function differently no matter what I did (threats, encouragement, counsel, prayers, pleading, etc.). I tried it all and because I was raised by a Destructive Narcissistic Mother I was programed to be abused and didn't even understand I was being mistreated in a deep way. I knew it, but the part of me that wanted to be healthy and survive (these people will often kill their victims either by suicide, "accidents" or illness -read what Alice Miller says in some of her writings, that the body will speak even if the mind will not acknowledge the abuse). In my case I ended up with an agressive form of breast cancer. Thankfully it was caught very early and with surgery, chemo, and radiation I have been cancer free. There is no history of breast cancer in our family and I was only forty. Both of my sisters have had serious health problems, like immune problems, infection, migranes, hives and on and on. We were not physically abused, although my mother was also a slapper, pincher, clawer, as I have seen someone else say. My father never really spanked us, but he allowed my mother to pit us against each other, talk to one daughter about the other one. Actually, her was was to get two sisters against the one she was mad at and believe me not a day has passed that she has not been mad at one of us. My advice to you is to find a way to get your wife and child the @#$% away from this demonic, destructive force. When you told the story of getting the rake, I clutched my chest and felt pained. You do not need anyone to tell you what your body and spirit already know. As a survivor of denial, I can tell you that once that defense mechanism has been put away (it is no longer necessary or won't be once you get away), you will regret every minute you ever spent trying to make her see your side, your worth, your value. She cannot! I cannot tell you how many times my husband has said to me over the years, "Oh, you really have it bad. I really feel sorry for you." When I was able to say, "Yes, you are right I have had an awful time, but not anymore. "I have peace for the first time in my life." You deserve peace and you owe it to your wife and child. I pray you find it and believe me it will never be anywhere near her.

missmaia (5) 19 Mar 2008 05:03 PM

I 'm hoping this blog is still active because I have just recently come to understand what it means to have a have a NPD sibling. What I am struggling with most is the realization of how he sees the world in such a distored way, yet believes it to be reality. This in itself causes me to be hopeless b/c now I realize there is no way to establish a common ground from which to work. My mother and I have been his victim for all of my life, but he had respect for my Dad. My shock came after my mother's dealth, as I watched him immediately turn on my Dad. Suddenly, he saw my Dad as a doddering old demented fool. I came to realize that his distortion of my Dad is really no different than the distored way he saw me as well as my mother. All of this sickens me, because it is so ugly and so damaging. The only person who was saved from this was our grandmother and that was because she believed he was perfect. I feel like my life has been turned completely upside down and I come to realize just who my life was dominated by. And what a waste. I use to view him as "Goliath" b/c he intimated by anger, but now I see him as the wizard of oz.

Beth McHugh (12962) 19 Mar 2008 05:24 PM

Hi Maia, having a close family member who is a narcissist can be very damaging and hurtful. There are two positive aspects to this situation however. One is that it is a sibling rather than a parent with the condition which is much less destructive. The other is that you have worked out that your brother is possibly a narcissist and can take steps to protect yourself. If you feel that you would benefit by talking about the situation, please feel free to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

KMacK (5) 30 Mar 2008 01:35 PM

Hello Beth, I believe that my sister has NPD. I had purchased acopy of of the DSM-IV a number of years ago for other reasons and happened to be thumbing through the diiferent categories of disorders and came across Narcisism. I read the article and thought to my self now that sounds like my youngest sister.

I almost don't know where to start with this story. She is the youngest of four children, she is almost 52 years old now. From the beginning she could do no wrong. While all of the rest of us had chores and consequences for misbehavior, she never had to do anything she did not want to. No chores no consequences.

When I was 15 my health was in severe jeopardy. She was 9 at the time. It was determined that I had an adenoma in my bronchial tree and my left lung had to be removed. This was 1965. I was in hospital for several months. At that time very young children were not allowed to visit patients. So she never saw me in the hospital.

At this same time my father decided he wanted a divorce from my mother. He was a Merchant Marine and was always away at sea. Gone for a year and home for six months was the usual pattern.

When I came home from the hospital....there was a certain disbelief on my sisters part that there was anything wrong with me. It took me almost a year to recover. I had a hard time walking up stairs to my bedroom for many months. Most things that folks take for granted would leave me gasping for air. When asked to take out the trash or shovel snow I often protested......Sisters comment were always...you're just lazy. There is nothing wrong with you!. Meanwhile she was never asked to even wash dishes or pick up her room.

From there as time went on she became a clothes horse.....going to a local shop and stealing hundreds of dollars worth of clothing. she was found out when my mother happened to find sisters closet full of clothes that had all the labels on them and mother had not bought any one of them. However my mother and my stepfather took her to the shop and turned her in. As they should have. The kicker is they paid for all the clothes and nothing was ever done to punish her.

Sis was getting into Bathroom fights with other girls in high school. Dating boys who she had no feeling for only to get material things from them. (It turned out later she was a lesbian) She even went so far in her mid twenties to have a threesome with the owner of a local motorcycle shop so that he would get her a new Motocross Motorcycle. She subsequently turned up pregnant and had an abortion. The only one who was supposed to know was my SIL who took her to the clinic. SIL said she came out of the procedure room with a smile on her face.

Many years were punctuated with her BSing her way into jobs she was not qualified for (she had dropped out of school) Always presented herself as though she came from money. Made sure she drove Cadillacs and other Hot cars.

I moved to Maine in my early twenties and became a carpenter, got married, built my own house and raised most of our own food. I did not have much contact with her during about a five year period. I heard from my brother that she was driving home drunk from gay bars in the Boston area.

She has a belief that she has a strong affinity for animals. She became a trainee with the BPD mounted division. Something happened that I never got the full story on but she never became full time and left BPD.

She went to grooming school and while there met a woman who she partnered with, for some time. The partner went to prison and tried to convince Sis to break her out....she was actually going to do it.

That relationship fell by the wayside before long. She met another woman who she partnered with for many years. She was actually a very nice person. She helped my Sis get a dog grooming business going and eventually into breading and showing dogs.

Also during this relationship Sis became a Black belt in Karate. She also expressed a desire to become a sherriffs deputy. After she made deputy it turns out she was marginalized by the rest of the deputies....they just did not like her so she quit.

Later toward the end of the relationship with this longtime partner. there were assualts....and then there were diamond rings, assualts and diamond rings....please don't leave me please here look what I bought you. EXpensive cars eventually....Corvettes and the like as gifts.

Sis could be so charming to people too. I used to go to her shop and bring lunch because I knew she was real busy. I would watch her interact with her customers too. Oh Hi how are you? Hows your wife? talk about the owners dog in kids terms....then as soon as they took their dog out the door she would go...F^#%ing loser....

Eventually the relationship ended with this long time woman.....but it was not pretty. there was bleach thrown in eyes....and many other types of assualts. There was stalking going on too......for a long time and my still be going on I am not sure.

As if that was not enough. My brother hurt his back at work. he was out on disabilty. His daughter had given birth to a daughter and was going back to work. So being proud Grand Dad he decided he would take care of Gbaby while mom was at work for the first year. During that year he hired me to shingle his whole house. One day he heard that my sister's name had been in the paper for assualt on a dog grooming customer. Since he and I had severed ties with her sometime before. He called my oldest sister to see what she knew about this.

About an hour after he called older Sis....Younger Sis calls him and threatens to kill him....she was still on the sherriffs department. He was also somewhat depressed from his predicament with his work injury. He had no idea if she would carry it out.

I could go on and on with this. She has subsequently denied to me that the threat ever happened. I was right there in the kitchen while she was on the phone to him and heard the whole of his side of the conversation. So I know it happened.

I got feel ing sorry for my younger Sis a few years ago. Around Christmas and New Years she has a way of dropping hints to other family that she'd like her family back. So I decided to contact her and had lunch with her. That was a bad decision and a moment of weakness I won't do again.

I only wish I could post the email that she sent me after my own daughter had some troubles in an abusive relationship. I was trying to find somewhere for her and her children to go if my daughter needed a place when she left her abuser.

You would have thought I had asked for a million dollars. Needless to say I severed the relationship once again.

Beth McHugh (12962) 30 Mar 2008 02:36 PM

Hi KMacK, whether your sister has NPD or not, she certainly sounds like a difficult character. The best way to protect yourself against people like this, which whom you do not have a particularly strong bond, is to do what you are doing and keep well away. As you can see quite clearly, those who get close, get hurt.

maddiehd (5) 30 Mar 2008 08:05 PM

My Mother passed away this week...I found out when a friend read the obituary in their hometown paper. My family of origin has not contacted me, since I confronted my father, the NPD parent, about sexual abuse of my daughter. My Mom was the daughter of an extremely dominating, NPD mother who died only a few years ago. She lived only for my father, and her own mother. I had accepted that this was what it was, and forgave and moved on, setting what I thought were boundaries. Learning about this abuse of my daughter, was devistating. It was later supported by a letter to my parents and siblings from an older cousin, asking for family support of my daughter, and verifying the abuse in her own history with him. Still, no one, my mother or 3 siblings would have any communication. My husband, 2 children and I have been isolated from the entire extended family for a year and a half. Now I hear my mom has died. I am so hurt, angry, sad. I know my father has told all he was falsely confused, but I find the reaction of all of my siblings, and my now deceased mother shocking and painful. I knew our family was very difunctional, and with the help of therapy, kept my distance, worked hard on myself and created a good life for myself and my own family. My siblings moved to another state together when my parents retired. I was grateful for the distance, which provided me even more separation, but I still visited and called, not getting sucked into the never ending drama, but not fighting either. I don't understand my siblings desire to hurt me and my family this way. I think they could still deny the abuse and stand behind their father, and not so cruely deny me of my mother, as she was dying. I don't want to re-engage and connect with this disfunction. I am done. I stand behind my daughter and will not ever forgive my father, but accept that he is a very sick man. I can't believe they cannot see him for what he is, or simply accept me. I don't know how to deal with this death, no funeral, no "end." I understand the sick relationship between my mom and father, know she was not capable of loving me as I needed. I thought I accepted this, but now the pain is devastating. I am 54 years old. Why do I still care? How do I let go?

Beth McHugh (12962) 30 Mar 2008 09:15 PM

Hi Maddie, my sympathies for the death of your mother, although you will likely have so many mixed feelings about the whole relationship. It's good that you are standing behind your daughter, she needs that so much. Especially as she can see that you are going against your birth family to do so. She is lucky to have such a loving mother with strong convictions. You ask about why your siblings can't see your father for what he is, or at least accept you. They would be unable to accept you and what you are saying because that would mean they have to accept your father's behavior. That is, accept the unacceptable. It is not uncommon for one member, who speaks out against sexual abuse, to be ostracized by the remainder of the family. This can even occur when other members have been assaulted themselves. The denial is too strong. Maddie, you still care because your mother was your mother, and you have certain beliefs and expectations about what mothers (and fathers) should be like. We all do. When our beliefs differ from reality, we often run into trouble. If you would like assistance in resolving your ties to your mother and your birth family, feel free to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

dotheyknoitall (16) 17 May 2008 12:42 PM

hey well from what i see ere ive got a narcissist on my hands. how do you know all thais???? Do you know 1???? i find it hard to smile in his face and to be strong wb

SecondDaughter (10) 03 Jun 2008 07:53 AM

This is for Struggling Son. Sorry to hear about this. I can see that you were offered a continuous series of unobtainable rewards. I was instantly bothered when I read your note. Mostly because nobody has the right to say you should take a cut in pay because you have a pension. That is so cruel. You earned that money and she has no right to tap into it. She should be celebrating your accomplishments that allow you to have the pension, not conniving how she can tap into it. I am glad you see through her twisted logic. I hope you will soon transition into a workplace with honesty and integrity where you will be rewarded for your work.

crockettaa (5) 04 Jul 2008 07:45 PM

What is the correct way to handle these people? Do you confront them and tell them that their behavior is wrong or just ignore it? My mother and my aunt (they are sisters) definitely have this NPD. Any time I have a family event (eg. child's confirmation or graduation) they like to cause problems. It seems like it always has to be about them. They end up ruining many of my special moments with my husband and children, by stirring up conflict in order to be the center of attention. If I don't invite them then I am the bad guy. I end up bottling up a lot of anger about it. I would be happy to hear any suggestions.

Beth McHugh (12962) 04 Jul 2008 10:33 PM

Hi Crockettaa, there is no correct way to handle a narcissist, only the way that is best for you. Some adult children of narcissistic parents choose to terminate all contact because it is just too painful to continue. Others find it preferable to stay in contact but under certain conditions. Certainly strong boundaries need to be in place in order to deal with the potential damage from interacting with sufferers of NPD, particularly ones with well-developed sadistic traits. Staying in contact with narcissists requires making as few waves as possible without compromising your own self-esteem. If you feel you would benefit from personalized counseling, you can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com Best wishes, Beth

AmIlikemymother (5) 07 Jul 2008 07:42 AM

My previous therapist labeled my mother narcissistic by proxy. I didn't realize how significant this disorder is until recently. It is a huge relief to know this disorder on one hand (relief of guilt), and realization sad to comprehend on the other (no hopes for a better relationship with her, heightens with age, no way to deal with it. etc.).

Same therapist and I went through the characteristics item by item and reassured me that I wasn't narcissistic. (I feel like I am like my Mother when she expresses to me that my feelings don't count, and my response quiltily feels like it mirrors hers).

Whenever she hurts my feelings and puts it back on me that she is right, she isn't going to change for anybody and I can get over it, I don't call her for a while. Neighter of us will budge until I give in when I feel like I am "punishing" her.

We recently lost my Dad and I feel tremendous responsibilty to her as she has almost no friends and no one to turn to. But when she slaps me in the face with this stuff, I don't want to continue in the relationship at all. But then that brings me back to guilt. Vicious cycle. I do not like the relationship I have with her (frankly, I mostly don't like her) and sadly now realize it will never get better.

Thank you for this blog; you do not know what a tremendous relief it is to be able to identify with some of these people and finally come to grips it is not my fault. My question is, is narcissism hereditery? And what other sources can you reccommend (books, journals) that I can turn to to assist me in my struggle?

Beth McHugh (12962) 07 Jul 2008 03:44 PM

Hi Amilikemymother, there is a suggestion of a hereditary link with this personality disorder, but the jury is out on the ratio of genes to environment. However, if one of my clients asks me "Do you think I am a narcissist?" I can confidently assure them that the answer is "no". Sufferers of NPD by definition do not have the ability to self-reflect on their own behaviors and hence would never have the insight that their behaviors could be having effects on their interpersonal relationships. Have you read the entire series of articles I have written on NPD, particularly those on having a narcissistic mother and the aging narcissist? These may give you further insights into the condition. There is not a lot of good material available on this condition and it is not well known in the public domain. I am currently writing a book on this condition but I don't expect it to be available till next year. My advice to you is to learn to set firm boundaries with your mother as she will attempt to encroach on your rights in the years to come. If you feel you would like personal assistance in dealing not only with your mother but with your own grief and anger that are part and parcel of having a narcissistic parent, please contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

rmg123 (10) 08 Jul 2008 06:45 PM

Glad I found this site...I finally feel that there are people that understand what I have gone through. However, it is sad to see how many people are broken over NPD issues. In a few days, I must fly across country to be with my family. My stomach is already in knots; my daughter and husband do not want to be with my parents...I have learned that this is a balancing act, which is where I need some advice. My mom is NPD by proxy, both parents are alcoholics. My dad was physically abusive when we were growing up and Mom closed her eyes to this which is difficult to forgice. Fast forward 40 yrs. I see my parents once a yr. but it is a nightmare. They make arrangements to take us out, we arrange our schedule, then they cancel.My mother did this several times the last visit then was upset that we were leaving at 5 a.m. and could not met with her. Some story this time, they are arranging and changing when we can meet, refusing to come to a family bbq and upset with me the one day I have plans and I will not change them. To make things worse, my sister has become a clone of my mom, is taking off when we are coming to visit, dumps her out of control kids on me, then refuses to speak to me when I try to tell her about the situation because she is hurt. So...I really do not want to see my parents or my sister, which is also the decision of my husband and daughter. However, this will cause WWIII. To make matters even more complicated, my youngest sister is an enabler who refuses to set limits with the NPDs because she fears their anger. Because I am the one who has spoken up, refuses to be mentally and emotionally abused, and want to set limits, I have been identified as the one with the problem that only adds to my heart ache.

Beth McHugh (12962) 14 Jul 2008 05:15 PM

Hi rmg123, the situation you are in is so common with adult children of narcissists who do not follow the family rules. Yes, you are the one with the problem, but only as they see it! You are the healthy one trying to break free or at least set healthy boundaries about what is acceptable behavior and what is not. It is also isolating to be the only one in the family who is aware of the family dynamics and attempts to hold a mirror up to the dysfunctional behavior. Hence you will be punished until such time as you conform. But once you are at your stage of recovery, it is not possible to conform any more. If you feel you need assistance in either setting healthy boundaries or breaking the ties completely, feel free to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

MSGirl (5) 23 Jul 2008 06:10 AM

I am the product of a narcissistic family. I was not allowed to voice any negative feelings or worries as a child. If I did so, I was "hurting" my mother. I have a physical birth defect that is painful to me, but when I talked about how it felt as a teenager, my mother said I was making her feel bad because she felt so awful that I had it. So I was not even allowed to voice my sadness about it.

I have never won a fight with my mother. She can say the meanest things to me and I always end up apologizing to her just to make peace. My father supports her (I know he loves me but he will not stand up to her). As a teenager my mother would confide in me about her sexual problems with my father. It made me so uncomfortable but if I just voiced the least objection, she would punish me with silence. She had a tough childhood herself so I always felt that I could never understand how hard her life was, so I was just selfish.

My question for those of you out there is, do you have difficulty in making decisions as an adult? I do not think I have ever made a decision that I did not question, including my marriage. I feel positively in one direction one day, then completely differently the next. I have never been able to figure out what my "core" is. If anyone has ever felt this way, I'd love to get your feedback.

Beth McHugh (12962) 23 Jul 2008 04:47 PM

Hi MSgirl, it is not uncommon to feel that you don't know what your "core" is because, after being enmeshed in a dysfunctional family where you were not allowed to speak your story and were made to feel invisible, it is reasonable to feel that you don't really know who you are. This is because children and adult children of a narcissistic parent are focussed on that parent for love and attention much more than children of healthier parents. Because of this intense focus, there is little space to "grow" yourself, and become familiar with what you want in life for yourself. The focus is always directed outwards on attaining love and attention. The treadmill of pleasing continues. If your mother suffers from NPD, she would find your birth defect difficult to deal with, as she would see it reflecting badly on herself and would have to reject the existence of it as best she could in order to survive. This, coupled with the normal feelings of non-personhood that children of narcissistic parents often feel, would lead to the feelings that you experience. This does not have to be permanent! The lack of healthy boundaries in NPD families also adds to this feeling, but again this can be rectified. Please contact me if you feel you need help in finding "you".

HADIT (10) 26 Jul 2008 10:48 AM

Hello everyone,

First off, I would like to say that I am very happy to have found this blog. I have a NPD mother and have recently opted to ignore her - she did something that for me represented the "last straw". I have since sought therapy (have been once so far) and will continue to do so until I can straighten myself out so to speak. My question is to Beth and all posters really: how does one deal with siblings who cannot/will not see that a parent is problematic and instead choose to blame you? It is my experience that my siblings blame me, and are actually NPD themselves (or is it ME?????) Do you see where I am going with this? Although I have outsiders (friends, spouse, child) who have witnessed the behaviour and agree that my mother is "nuts" (excuse the term, but it's what is used by them) I cannot escape feeling guilty. I wonder if it is because by not "towing the line" I am making them uncomfortalbe? I am slowly getting past the whole afraid of being abandoned by my family syndrome, which is why I have often given in to my mother, but now it is just too much. This has gone on for many many years and it's the root of alot of my insecurities and I need to take responsibility for myself...any insights/suggestions/advice on how to deal with siblings who turn on someone in my position? Thank you in advance !

Beth McHugh (12962) 26 Jul 2008 04:44 PM

Hi Hadit, I'm happy you found this blog useful, there are several others on NPD as well that you might also find helpful. Regarding your siblings, there seems to be a genetic component to NPD, but it is unlikely that all of your siblings would be narcissists. There are at least two factors going on here. One is that when any member of an established groups seeks to rock the boat in any way, the other group members will band together to put pressure on the dissident to conform back to the rules. This is not peculiar to narcissistic family groups but to all groups. The second is that it is very difficult even for adults to admit that their mother doesn't love them, hence children and adult children of a narcissistic parent often get hooked on what I call the the "love treadmill" . If you start holding up a mirror which reflects the truth, people can find the truth very threatening and rather than consider what you are saying they will attack you, which for them is the safer option. You may well be dealing with both narcissistic and non-narcissistic siblings. The non-narcissists will likely put up the most opposition since they have the most to lose. If you would like assistance with this issue please feel free to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com Best wishes, Beth

HADIT (10) 26 Jul 2008 04:59 PM

Beth, thank you very much for your quick reply. I guess there really is safety in numbers.

Beth McHugh (12962) 26 Jul 2008 05:24 PM

Very much so! You are dealing with the pack mentality here. Good luck with your resolve and do what you feel is right for you. Best wishes, Beth

CPDCOPPURR (5) 28 Jul 2008 10:27 AM

I was surfing the net and came across this forum. First of all, i want to thank you for putting this together and for all the sage advice. I have been in a living hell for 3 years now with my new husband and his grown adult children as well as his mother and his two sisters. Gee, i don't know where to begin to tell this tale of woe. (What i am typing here is a SMALL PART of my life living in hell with this very dysfunctional family.)

My husbands maternal grandmother died in a hospital from a lobotomy. She was a paranoid pschzhoprenic (sp). My husbands family came from poor humble beginnings in Kentucky. His mother has the (keeping up with the Jones's syndrome) as i call it. She raised her childrent to marry "rich". And to become the Jones's. All 3 of her children in my humble opinion exhibit the same behaviour, arrogance, intolerance, HUGE control issue's, backstabbing, caddiness, talking out of bothsides of their mouth's. And constantly trying to put people down at everyone's expense to up their stock. The arrogance and entitlement issue's are so ugly, i couldnt bare going to dinner with them, they would snap their fingers and order the waitresses around as if they were slaves on an old plantation. This is just the tip of the iceberg i am explaining here.

When i met my husband, he constantly spoke of his gifted children, how smart they were, how well they excelled in school, all the sholarships they were given. What schools they went too. How brilliant they are. blah blah blah. I had on simple question for him that he couldnt answer.... I asked, "what kind of human beings are they?" I know about their laundry list of good academics, but what do they do for fun, what kind of friends do they have, do they volunteer, do they pay it forward to humanity, since they were given so much in life. He hadn't an answer for me. He stared blankly at me.

When we became engaged, he FEARED telling his daughter. We kept everything a secret from her. I could see the fear in his eyes when she called, for fear she wanted to come over to our home. I had since moved from Chicago to Kentucky. I asked him about his fear and he dismissed my questions for "silliness". I noticed he bent over backwards for her. He idealized her and idolized her. And i found this behaviour very disturbing. His mother and sister behind my husbands back, said, that his daughter was a very troubled girl. She was hospitalized 3 times for suicide attempts, had outbursts constantly in the house, that she ruled the roost and that her own mother was "jealous" of the attention that was lauded on her from my soon to be new husband. The sun rose and set on this golden child... I approached my future husband and he reluctantly told me some things about the comings and goings but denied she was troubled. She is a cutter, 3 suicide attempts, tattooing her body all over, piercings all over, goth clothing etc... But she sure was the MODEL STUDENT!!!! His family puts a high price on educated people. Hence where i fit it. I am a PhD as well as a police officer and a former FBI profiler. Something was rotten in Denmark from the getgo here....

We finally told his daughter we were marrying, and she went completely ballistic. Temper tantrums, screaming and wailing on the phone, nasty emails etc... Mind you this is a 24 year old woman who is married and lives with her husband. But dear old Daddy, pays her rent, her car, her car insurance, her health insurance, her schooling, her book fee's, her tattoo removels and so on and so forth. I was sickened. And told him it was high time for her to live like a normal everyday child and stop putting her on a pedestal. He agreed. The backlash was even more fierce then the first time. At which time she recruited his family, she played the victim of "Daddy doesnt love me anymore"... The saga continued. He put up strong boundaries and simply stated these are what they are in an email. No sooner did she read the email did she break the boundaries. Screaming you cant do this to me I am YOUR DAUGHTER, YOUR GOLDEN CHILD. I run your life... blah blah blah.....

He admits now, that she was praised and idealized her whole life, she was given things to shut her up, to endear themselves to her, and looked for her approval. The classic, the tail wagging the dog thing. It is frankly disgusting.

He has kept to his guns with this, and to the barriers we have set in our life. But his daughter keeps breaching the wall. Sending email after email. At first when you read the email, you would "almost" think it is genuine. Then you have to read between the lines, she tugs on dear old dads heartstrings and then in a subtle but not so subtle way wants MONEY. After 3 years i finally met her face to face. After we were married already. And throughout that lunch it was nothing more then subtle attacks on me and on him. It was nauseating, that she could sit there for 3 hours and tell you how wonderful she is, but no one wants to hire her because they havent seen her inner brilliance. They have not seen her full potential, and she is so misunderstood because she is so GREAT that they MUST and WILL see it.

My husband readily admits he spoiled her and to some extent her brother terribly. They never held a job until they were 23 and 24. Work was a dirty word to them, and they believed they would be living off of their father their whole life.

After our lunch with her, we decided to offer her a half a loaf, not to bring her totally into our life as she wanted but to, have casual lunches and dinners with her from time to time. Not 4 phonecalls a day. Not spending weekends with them etc... She became indignant and went nuts!!! Fast forward to last month when she sends a sweet as pie email to dear old dad about how she misses him. He sent her another email back stating his boundaries and how they would be respected. She completely ignored that email obviously and then sent another about her finishing up flight school that cost 100k... Well the real truth of her "gee i miss you daddy" email was money of course. Lets snow job dear old dad again into paying for my flight school. She has the big hat no cattle syndrome of, i want the title so i can show off, but i dont want to work. She is also bulimic, and anorexic. She weighs all of 110 lbs, at 6'1". She was diagnonsed with bi polar but will not go on her medication, and states she is FINE it is everyone else that is messed up. She has scars from cutting up and down her arms, and on her legs. Yet she waltz's in everywhere like she owns the place and orders around everyone like they are nothing but crumbs on the floor.

My husband was recently diagnosed with BPD........ And i believe a bit of the NPD mixed in....... He is a control freak and one that is very arrogant and condescending.......... Which i cant believe i missed when i met him..... I am a COP.................. A profiler........ I missed all this???????? I was going through a rough spot when i met him, and his "helpfulness" was welcome in my life. But his helpfullness once i gathered my brain power together i saw was nothing but control, and once i got back in control of my life the fighting started.......His sisters and mother obviously have a form of one or the other or both. They went and befriended me. And seemed very nice. But then in th end when i began to see how they were trying to harm our marriage and relationship, and i said something, they turned into vicious jackals and hyena's.

I guess i am writing this to see, first how to handle his narcisstic bi polar daughter and son for that matter, how to handle the family issues surrounding his mother and sisters (he feels guilt around this alot)...... how to protect myself in this situation........ And how to keep the barbarians from our gates. They wont go away!!!! And i know we cant fix them. And lastly, any advice in how to deal with a husband who has BPD mixed with NPD? Thank for all and any of your advice.

rosem1111 (45) 29 Jul 2008 08:20 PM

I also am dealing with serious issues, as is CPDCOPPURR . As I am dealing with different close and extended family members, the diagnoses that could be applied vary. NPD certainly figures highly. BPD and bi-polar issues are there on my side, from a daughter to my mother and further and I am struggling to categorise correctly.

I think my husband is narcissistic also, with a sadistic streak that also seems to be shared by my narcissistic + ? daughter, and a number of members of his narcissistic family (but not all). My family does not have the sadistic streak. My son and husband also seem rather like Asperger sufferers. My son needed a lot of support from me for years.

I still struggle to see what is true about what is going on though it is there as I am so easy to put down, confuse and plunge into despair and self blame, doubt and upset. The strange thing is that I am actually reasonably bright and educated. So why do I feel so inadequate and can be taken as being quite dumb? Actually I seriously wonder if I am really dumb and incapable and that anything that suggests otherwise is just an error.

I need to find ways to be more self confident and to take better care of myself and do what I want to and feasibly could do. But I have never totally given up. Now, though, decisions I am not making and actions I am not doing could end up in serious consequences for me, such as not doing health checks for symptoms or preventatively, or securing my share of the marital money when I know my husband may terminate the marriage and take all the money. I have never been diagnosed with a mental illness though I have suspected I have had all of them at one time. Somehow I get seen by outsiders as normal. My husband says I am "crazy". I wonder if he is right.

Beth McHugh (12962) 30 Jul 2008 04:40 PM

Hi CPDCOPPURR, you certainly have a handful to deal with here but I am interested in your husband's diagnoses of both NPD and BPD. You also question your own sanity, yet if you are a part of any dysfunctional family it is easy to be swayed by them that you are the one who has the problem since they have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo and will turn on anyone who challenges them. As your husband is beginning to establish more healthy boundaries with his daughter and is open to the idea that she is "difficult" I guess as a therapist I would question just how much of his behavior is real NPD and how much has been learned from his mother. At least you are both doing the right thing in setting these healthy boundaries and they are certainly taking effect---hence the rages. Your DIL certainly shows some indicators of possible BPD herself, yet so far, I don't see any from your husband, but obviously you can't tell me everything in one hit.

You are correct in saying you can't change these people, or any people for that matter, but you can change yourself and look at the situation from a more factual and practical viewpoint. If you would like further assistance in resolving the situation from your own perspective and maintaining healthy boundaries of your own, you can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com. I'm sure you are not "crazy" or "dumb", but any self-doubts can be detected by manipulative people and used against you. Therefore I would encourage you to look at the core beliefs you hold about yourself and your in-law family to establish for yourself a clearer view of the dynamics that are occurring which are so upsetting to you. Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (12962) 30 Jul 2008 04:51 PM

Hi Rosem, firstly I can reassure you that your husband won't have Asperger's and narcissistic personality disorder together, although sometimes the symptoms of emotional detachment common to both can look similar but the two conditions are quite separate. I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time and it sounds like your self-esteem has taken a blow in trying to deal with the situation. Yet you do recognize that you are neglecting areas of your life that need attention, such as your health checks and staying on top of the family finances. Being unclear about exactly what you are dealing with would also be generating stress for you, and you sound like you need to first be more in the picture about the family dynamics and also to have some encouragement to take back the reins, at least in terms of looking out for yourself. If your husband has NPD then high levels of manipulation will be present and over a period of years , this can erode self-esteem. If you would like additional assistance please contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

Best wishes, Beth

Homayoun (5) 02 Aug 2008 04:01 AM

I have been trying to reach out to my very angry husband for over a year. I believe his mother has a narcissistic personality (from my own dealings with her), and my sense is that his anger at me may partly be fueled by his life-long frustrations from having a mother who says she loves him but does not really know him or support him. She seems more interested in preserving her reputation as a mother, and her desire to see her sons do well seems rooted in a desire to have their success in life reflect positively on her. She is happy when life is good for them, but biting and sarcastic when something goes wrong. Her narcissism is initially hard to detect, because she seems to love her sons. But that love is possessive. She has always blindly wanted them to live near her (she is in a rural area) and be with her for the holidays, even when it is clear that their careers and relationships would be damaged by doing so. Both sons have had some success defending their interests, but I have seen my husband sometimes get sucked in to her self-serving plans and then regret it later.

Until a year ago I thought our marriage was fine -- though I knew we were bogged down with young kids and career struggles. I would sometimes ask my husband if he had any problems with me, and he would say no - I felt like we didn't talk enough about the relationship, but it was his style to be silent. Then an unplanned pregnancy caused him to melt down. It turned out that he had been harboring so much resentment toward me - much of it justified, but also preventable. I feel like if I had had some feedback from him I could have easily changed my ways. Over the past year we have been trying to talk it out (well, I have been begging him to, as he has been contemplating divorce and we are now separated), and his list of grievances continues to grow. The main one is his feeling that I never loved him. He has a desire to be cared for by someone who just knows what he needs by powers of empathy and doesn't require that he spell out those needs. I was admittedly a bit dense about his point of view, but I feel like the requirements of new motherhood (and my own superheated desire to have children - a long story) distracted me as well. He didn't say much, but I could have tried harder to hear what he wasn't saying.

My question - is it common for children of narcissistic mothers to look for what was missing from their upbringing in their spouse? If so, is there a way for him to realize that his mother failed him more that I did? And that his expectation that I just know what he needs (like a good mother would) is unrealistic? I have absorbed so much anger from him but still love him and want him to move home. What helps keep me sane is the idea that some of that anger is really meant for his mother. I am writing, I think, to get some encouragement to keep going in this process. Thank you.

Beth McHugh (12962) 02 Aug 2008 04:44 PM

Hi Homayoun, it is common for any person to look to their partner to "make-up" for what was lacking in their parental relationship. If your husband's mother truly suffers from narcissistic personality disorder then he will be more in need of love and empathy than the average person. His desire to have a partner who just "knows " what he wants is understandable given his possible upbringing, but unrealistic in reality. The fact that he feels you never loved him is another possible indication that he has felt unloved all his life. At least he can express this to you, it is possible that he has never been able to express this to his mother. I'm sure you love him, otherwise you wouldn't be writing to me. Would he be willing to read the articles on Dealing with a narcissistic mother? He may begin to see the light, or he may stay in denial as regards the relationship he has with his mother. Th reality for him though is that this pattern will repeat itself with any woman he becomes involved with, as no wife can, nor should, be a substitute for a mother who couldn't love. I hope this helps. You can contact me if you feel you need to. Best wishes, Beth.

Freebird68 (41) 19 Aug 2008 06:07 PM

Hi Beth, I've written to you already in another blog about my narcissistic mother, and also of the affect she's had on my 11year old son. I've been concerned for him lately, and after reading Rosems blog, and your reply, I had to ask your advice. My son has previously been loosely diagnosed with very mild Aspergers, but lately his behaviour has led me to wonder if he is becoming narcissistic, as I am aware that it is possibly inherited/genetic. He's become very smug, superior and condescending; behaviour he's never exhibited before. He's spent time with my narcissistic elder brother lately, and i've wondered too if it could just be his influence rubbing off. My son appears to have no understanding of how his behaviour affects others, and more to the point, doesn't seem to care! He is extremely bright, and got the highest grades in his year at school last month. My son's been trying to manipulate me lately too. I've spoken to my Doctor, who thinks it may just be puberty, and a healthy dose of 'typical male behaviour'! He's advised I wait 6 months, and then go for family counceling if things haven't improved. I am more than aware that I may be paranoid, albeit justifiably. I noticed that on your reply to Rosem that you said it's not possible to have Aspergers and NPD together and I wondered if you could please explain to me why this is? Also, what do you think about my sons behaviour from what i've said? Thankyou again Beth.

Beth McHugh (12962) 19 Aug 2008 11:07 PM

HI Freebird, what sort of behaviors does your son exhibit that has resulted in a label of "loosely Asperger's?" Like all autistic spectrum disorders, Asperger's is a pervasive developmental disorder and is present from birth, regardless of the age at which it is diagnosed. As children with Asperger's do not display the more marked behavioral patterns of the autistic child, diagnosis can come later in life, even in adulthood. See my blogs on Asperger's disorder which are located on the right hand side of this page. In contrast, NPD is a personality disorder, and is not diagnosed until young adulthood.

While AS disorders, particularly autism, can now be detected in changes in the structural brain of sufferers, personality disorders are different in that they are not caused by physical changes in the brain. They are caused by a variety of circumstances which occur during the life of the developing child. There are based on thoughts and belief patterns. While there can be a degree of self-absorption present in both conditions, the cause of this self absorption is for different reasons, plus there are additional criteria needed to be satisfied to be diagnosed with either condition. If you would like further assistance you are welcome to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com Best wishes, Beth

Freebird68 (41) 20 Aug 2008 05:26 PM

Hi Beth, thanks for your swift reply. I say "loosely Aspergers" ,as his school, a child psychologist and my doctor all believe he has it, but he's never actually been seen! The school approached me saying something was wrong (I had noticed), and that they believed it was Aspergers. I answered the questions they asked me about him, and he was diagnosed! Same with the Doctor and psychologist. His behavior is as follows: Rarely wishes to be included in activites; tactless; takes things literally;cannot make or keep friends; inability to read others body language;unaware of unwritten rules;doesn't lie, or understand why others do; very agile but..... still can't master a knife and fork, and didn't learn to ride a bike 'til he was 8, and then not very well, and is still not able to tie his laces very well.(He could walk at 10 months!) He's obsessed with computer games; can be aloof and speaks his mind aloud, despite the fact he's upset quite a few people doing this. There are other symptoms too, but getting back to NPD; my son can be verbally spiteful, and is very superior. He mocks others achievements, and trys to belittle me at times. I'm not totally sure he realises what he's doing, though some of my family think he does. This NPD type behaviour is recent though. In general, he tend to rub other kids up the wrong way, and consequently is bullied alot. I really am at a loss what to do as I know SOMETHING'S wrong, but not quite what. This is why I went to my Doctor; to see if I could get him diagnosed, because whatever he's got, i need to know how to deal with him, as I may currently be doing more damage than good. Having said all that, I wouldn't say he was a deliberately naughty child. You mentioned self-absorption, and circumstances during his development; well his father is an alcoholic who has verbally abused my son, and sorely neglected and sometimes completely ignored him throughout his life. I successfully obtained a restraining order last year to gain some sense of consistency in our lives. His grandmother has NPD and that leaves him with me! I've stopped both of them from having contact with him, but i'm worried that the damage has been done. The only advice i've had so far was from my Doctor, who when I told her the school had said he probably had Aspergers, just told me that I must never shout at him, because 'they' couldn't handle it!!! Please help me!!!

Beth McHugh (12962) 20 Aug 2008 06:28 PM

Hi Freebird, this forum doesn't really allow me the scope to deal in depth with the problems you are experiencing with your son. You are very welcome to contact me at my website which I listed in the previous posting to you. Kind regards, Beth

Freebird68 (41) 21 Aug 2008 05:51 AM

Thanks anyway Beth.

heartfelt (5) 28 Aug 2008 07:28 AM

What can I say? I know a beautiful 49 year old woman who will never know that her own parents are so disappointed in her they call her a slut and a whore behind her back and are raising her son because "they" think she is a bad mother. ( not exactly true but there are endangerment issues in the past. It is true all her male relationships all tend to be ex drug addicts and/or alcoholics, with a fifth husband on the way. A still married man she only met a few months ago ).. She however thinks its because her son is so special to her parents that they are obsessing. No one has ever told her the truth. As all outward appearances she seems ok but I think she is being torn apart inside. She is made of Teflon, she can't sit still and smokes heavily and can't seem to quit even thought the doctor told her to stop because she is developing COPD. Her older sister seems to be the only one that cares as mom and dad were not the best of parents and told their two girls if abortions were legal they would not be alive today.. Tragic and horrible but what can her sister do to bring this lady to therapy?

Beth McHugh (12962) 28 Aug 2008 03:41 PM

Hi Heartfelt, therapy is one of those things that you can't make another person do. They have to want to do it for themselves, and even then the person may not be ready for it. When a situation is long-standing, as this one seems to be, the sister can suggest counseling if she hasn't already. She could also try setting boundaries that she won't listen to endless problems or bail her sister out unless she agrees to go to therapy. She could also offer to pay for one session in the hope that would get the ball rolling. Without knowing what is preventing your friend from seeking help to change her life, it is difficult to really say. Sometimes people have to really hit rock bottom before they realize that they need a helping hand. It's very frustrating for those around them. All you can do is wait and hope. Not much comfort I know, but your friend is seeking love in all the wrong places due in part to her upbringing, and hopefully with therapy she will one day come to love herself as she deserves. Best wishes, Beth

intothelight (5) 29 Aug 2008 04:20 AM

Hello.

I'm nearly 30 years old, and was diagnosed as being firmly in the aspergers window after recognising myself in the literature in my mid 20's and pressing to speak to a specialist. My mother was eventually, but angrily, convinced to come along to speak with that specialist; she feared that any professional questioning her on my development might reflect badly on her and would only come along after I assured her that this was not what it was about and that AS was considered to be something present from birth. She then became more enthusiastic; perhaps she felt it would absolve her of responsibility and her suspicions about my inherent badness would be confirmed :)

My father from what I can see is a raging narcissist. My mum shows some strong traits, but came from a background of total deprivation in her early days (children's home for first five years), has a capacity for reflection, and she is not vicious.

Really, I'm not here to talk about me except as a lead-up to my present concern. My father, who confused me as a youngster by seemingly 'loving' me but acting in a way that would have destroyed me ad I not thought and fought my way out of the darkness, has a little boy who is now seven. My father was nearly 60 at the time of his birth and was diagnosed with cancer that same day. The mother had met my father when she was 20 and he was a small time criminal in his fifties, and was impressed by his BS.

From the word 'go' with this little boy I foresaw problems. I have (had?) a close bond with him that his mother viewed as threatening. I was called to babysit for them on new year's eve from my early 20's (and did so willingly), to relieve her when she was under stress, to collect him from school when neither of them were available (often at the very last minute), to babysit while they went to the school to tell them that they were mistaken and that there was NO PROBLEM with their treasured child (the school had offered extra support from the early days and this was responded to with anger, a great shame as my own little girl attends that school now and they have great support systems that the boy, I'll call him D, has been denied), frequently called upon to take D at no notice because she is late and my father needs to go to the pub to do his 'important business'. I have done his gracefully. I love the boy. I bonded with him, inevitably, having been handed him from such an early age. Actually I have no problem with him in my care. I understand instinctively that overstimulation can lead to him becoming distressed, keep a very peaceful household, do everything possible to make sure he knows he is loved and valued here, get him deeply involved in such tasks as caring for the fish I keep or making artwork (a new one for every season :), and set very firm boundaries which he gratefully accepts.

D's mum has a very strong resentment for me. I was 16 when she got together with my father, and boh of them were giving me very strong chemicals (MDMA, amphetamines, cannabis, alchohol, LSD, and eventually walking away and leaving me in the company of heroin users). I knew no different and went along with it, and inevitably it all went horribly wrong. In my darkest hours I was told by them that my problems were due to my inherent weakness and instability, and that only crazy people had problems coping with such a strong chemical cocktail. At 17 someone suggested to me that perhaps it was not me whom was crazy, and the slow process of healing myself, by that stage a broken and terrified adolescent, began. I have pulled myself out of it. I acquired HIV in the horrendous haze of chemicals and abuse of my teens, self-esteem destroyed by being passed about like 'hospitality' among my father's sexually violent drug-dealing buddies. Despite everything, I am reasonably balanced and reflective in my own relationships, having initially sought counselling when my daughter was a baby as I feared I might damage her unintentionally as my parents had damaged me.

My great fear now is for D. I believe I am seen as a threat as I cannot be broken, and have actually been told by his mum "I do not consider you to be an equal". Anything that threatens her notions of superiority makes her afraid. The other night i went to visit with my nearly five year old; my father is hospitalised yet again. Triggered by an anger reaction bordering on violence by his mum, D began acting up. He wants the computer. He's screaming "F'ING IDIOT" "SHUT UP F'ING [CENSORED]" "GIVE ME THE F'ING PASSWORD" at his mum, who responds first by teasing him laughingly about his anger and, creepily, by trying to kiss and cuddle him. He locks her in the bathroom refusing to let her out unless he gets the password. She threatens to "KICK THE F'ING DOOR OFF IT's HINGES". Horrified, and with my still gentle and naive girl present, I say no need for that and take his wrists firmly but gently to unlock the door. He responds by hitting me and his mother, and taking a swipe at my daughter, who adores him. His mother's manner at this stage is flirtatious and gleeful.

I should have left there and then, but she's preparing food. My girl is sitting up on a high stool and he pulls it over. She could have been badly hurt, physically and emotionally, but I was in time to grab her. His mother responds by giving him an ice cream.

The screaming and swearing continues as she tries to cuddle him; 'Darling".

At one point I manage to sit beside the little guy; it's hardly his fault, he knows no other way; and I say quietly and calmly, "D, what are you doing? You hit me. You tried to hurt H (my girl). That's not okay. Why are you behaving like this?" I get the first eye contact since the frenzy began and he says "I don't know", almost tearful.

At that point the mother comes in and seeing a possible threat to her narcissistic loop with the young one says "D, come here, I want to speak to you in private". My little girl (who he's encouraged to feel superior to) is in tha hall and is told "Go away, I want to speak to D alone." When she looks confused this is repeated. At that point I begin to gather our things to leave and overhear her telling him he will be allowed on the computer as soon as we leave (! horrendous programming going on!) while cuddling him and kissing him. His campaign had been successful and we were the only obstacles to his happiness, and this after being told he would have no computer time for kicking her, shouting and swearing and pulling her hair while she was driving.

Sigh. At the end of all this I am clear that to preserve myself and my daughter we will simply not be able to see them together. This means she will probably not allow me to see the lad (despite my investment every time I'm needed) at all. I am no longer prepared to keep my mouth shut and feed the self-image she wishes to project through fear that she will not allow me to talk to D or will get 'angry' with me. My question is what can I do? I have been programmed myself to keep quiet about abuse, and as a child and adolescent was ridiculed and attacked for suggesting that I was suffering and might need to talk to someone. Do I just walk away and burn all bridges? Can I speak to the school or social services? I may end being ridiculed yet again if officials are impressed by their narcissistic BS personas. D's face at 7 cracks with madness frustration, helplessness, anger and fear that I did not experience myself until my psyche had endure the psychological equivalent of Hurricane Katrina by my late teens. I fear he may never escape if they succeed in isolating him from every voice of sanity, and anyone who does not support their delusions of grandeur and superiority is fast banished.

What do I do? I deal with my AS, HIV, and all the rest with good grace, study at university and do counselling work for other HIV+ people, have my finances sorted for the moment and try to have a full and loving life. I have come through hell and lived to tell the tale. I see what's happening with my young half brother, but I cannot carry the weight of the world on my shoulders along with everything.

Beth McHugh (12962) 29 Aug 2008 04:41 PM

Hi intothelight, no you cannot carry the weight of the world alone. However, the problem is that the abuse of your half-brother is mostly emotional which, while it is as potent as physical abuse, is less tangible and thus more difficult to prove. In time, D will start to act up in class if he isn't doing so already. You could approach both his teacher and the principal about the problems at home. Although his parents may deny all you say, it is still best that you speak up for this little boy who cannot speak for himself. Although you believe you need to step back to maintain your own equilibrium, you may also need to feel satisfied that you have done all in your power to help your brother. There may also be incidences of neglect that could be reported to child protection services in your area. I don't know enough about the situation. It may also be important for D to have some contact with you in his life so that he can see that not all his family are unstable. However, the latter would have to be your choice because only you know how much of this treatment you can put up with. You can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com if you need further assistance. Best wishes, Beth

md5417 (10) 08 Sep 2008 08:23 AM

How do you help a 10 year old child deal with their custodial, narcisistic parent without crossing the boundary of bad parenting? It's such a fine line and there are state statutes (Georgia) which define what you are and are not allowed to say to a child about the other parent. I see my daughter exhibiting many symptoms of a child of narcisistic parents - acting withdrawn, lack of action with homework or chores unless given direct supervision, purposely witholding school assignments in an effort to have some control over their environment...it goes on...

pinkblossom (5) 09 Sep 2008 04:18 AM

Hi Beth, I need help with a narcissistic family member. It's my brother-in-law. My husband was one of six kids, five boys and one girl. One brother seems to be jealous of us and manipulates his family because he plays the victim. We are the real victims. He has turned them all against us. All we ever did was try to be friends with him and his family. After six years, my husband had enough and told him that he didn't want to have anything else to do with him. My sister-in-law pretended that she wasn't taking sides but she was. She wouldn't tell us anything about what he said about us, but we found out that she told him anything we said about him. We were trying to get her to understand how he was manipulating everyone.

When my husband almost died from double pneumonia we called everyone in the family. But, a brother who came from out-of-state only came to our house one time during that week. He and his wife spent most of their time with the narcissist, showing him support, not my son and I. They tried to slip in to see my husband behind my back. They thought I was having lunch with some neighbors who brought over some food, but we went back to the hospital instead. The narcissist and the other brother were there at the hospital trying to slip in without us knowing. My son said that we could use some support and my sister-in-law got real defensive and said "we are supporting you". I said, "how, when you have only come over one time for one hour the whole week you've been here." She tried to start trouble when we went into the waiting room, but when I spoke up for myself she really got mad and said "whatever". No one ever talks back to her. Anyway, my husband recovered with God's help and he said I shouldn't have called any of them. He had been on a respirator for ten days, so I didn't know what to do.

One other incident recently was regarding his sister. For three years she always told me she had a birthday card for me, but I never got one. Neither has my son. I tried to think that she has a lot going on. But, she always called my husband on his birthday. This year she even sent him a card, writing that she loves him and wants him to come visit her. This is because the narcissistic brother tells everyone that I'm the reason my husband broke ties with him. I was not the cause.

Two things that seemed to be the cause of his rage with us: 1. I corrected him once when he was wrong about a comment he made. I didn't know he was a narcissist at that time. 2. My husband had mentioned that we were going to buy a camper. He had quit his job because of back problems so we knew it would be awhile. The next four times that the narcissist brother and his wife came over they said they wanted to borrow our camper and would pay $200.00 a week to use it. We tried to tell them it would be awhile and we might not even get one at all. My husband thought they were joking. The fourth time they mentioned it, my husband came right out and said no. The narcissist didn't like that at all. He really started turning family members against us. A few months later when the whole family snubbed me during Thanksgiving at another brother's house, my husband said, "that's it". He called the narcissistic brother and said he didn't want to talk to him anymore.

This was over six years that the narcissist worked on turning the family against us. After not talking to his brother for almost three years my husband called him in July to apologize for telling him that they shouldn't have anything to do with each other. That's the only thing we have ever done to him and his family. He was eager, very eager to "let by-gones be by-gones". He called four times in three days and came over on the fourth day. I thought maybe I would be ok about it, but I wasn't. I couldn't go in the room. He has manipulated us in so many ways that I can't list them all here.

I have tried so hard to be as nice as I can to everyone and when my husband's sister and other brothers come over here I'm friendly, I cook for them, we take them fishing, shopping, etc.

As far as his sister, her husband lost his job and has applied for social security. We gave them $200.00 for the last two Christmas', sent get-well cards, a gift card for her husband's 60th birthday last March, etc. We even gave them gas money several times when they came to Tennessee to visit from Georgia.

What do you think we should do? Would it be best to stop answering calls from him and the other family members (they just report everything we say back to him) until they can treat us as well as they do the others?

Any assistance you can give me would be greatly appreciated. I hope this doesn't sound too dis-jointed, I had so many thoughts in my head at once. Thank you.

Beth McHugh (12962) 13 Sep 2008 04:20 PM

Hi md5417, there are many things you can do to help your daughter, and many signs to watch for that she is being affected by her environment. I really don't have the scope here to deal with individual cases, and you have outlined that court proceedings may be occurring in another blog comment, so if you need additional help in supporting your daughter you can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com Your daughter is very lucky, however, to have a father who is prepared to help her so much. As you can see from many of the other postings, this is not always the case and the child is left to fend for themselves against the narcissistic parent. Best wishes, Beth

Beth McHugh (12962) 13 Sep 2008 04:47 PM

Hi pinkblossom, situations involving narcissists are always complicated, as you are experiencing, but the main thing to focus on is the relationship between you and your husband. The pair of you have to stand firm together. It is also important to ensure that it is really NPD that you are dealing with because that has an effect on the way you might approach this brother in the future. There is also the problem of your husband's sister to complicate the situation. I don't really have the space in this forum to deal with your situation individually, you might like to contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com where we could look at ways in which you can protect yourself against the manipulations of your inlaws. Best wishes, Beth

bittersweet2 (5) 22 Sep 2008 03:16 PM

I am struggling with my step-son's behavior. I will call him Jay (not his real name). Jay has been in my life for over 7 years (his dad and I have been married for over 5). We have 50/50 custody of him (week on week off). His mother claims to have been diagnosed with bi-polar disorder as well as a whole host of other disorders. She is on her 3rd marriage. She left Jay and his dad when he was only 5 turning 6 years old. He is now 14. At first she chose for Jay to stay with his dad full time. It then turned into visitation every other weekend. Once I entered the picture it became 50/50. His mother is a habitual liar, and attempts to manipulate given any opportunity. She copies everything we do, follows us to church, and smothers Jay to the point of driving him crazy. She volunteers at every school activity even though he does not want her to, she does it anyway. She is selfish to the max. My concern is that Jay is just like her. I don't know if he is a narcissist, but I have always thought he showed those behaviors. My husband has dismissed it as normal for his age, but he also admits that he is concerned to a much higher degree.

When he was younger he would get angry if he lost at a game. He would cheat on purpose, then tell us "That is how you play it in Jay's world." He hates school, church, any activity where he can not be in control. He admits people in general tend to drive him crazy. He struggles with sports because if he is not the best, he will get angry, blame the team, the coach, the officials, and want to quit. He will not take responsibility for ANYTHING. He blames everybody, or everything for his problems. In the 7 years I have known him, he has never owned up to a mistake, but he takes all the credit for good things. He will say stuff like "Don't you wish you were as awesome as me." and brag about how he is beating a team on his video game 100 to nothing, like it is reality. He blames us for his chores never getting done, his room being an outrageous disaster, he blames his teachers for his bad grades (he doesn't like them so he says he refuses to do well). We have a toddler and it scares me that Jay behaves like he cares more about the cat than him. One day our cat attacked my son out of the blue, not having been provoked in front of me and my husband. This was a severe attack resulting in several deep scratches on his face, as well as caused bruises to both of his ears. When my step-son heard about it , he blamed his brother, he told us that he deserved to get attacked, and if we got rid of the cat he would go live with his mother, and he would never forgive us. He told us we were wrong about the way the cat attacked him, even though we both witnessed it, and he was not even home at the time. He showed no remorse for his little brother. This told me that I could never trust him with his little brother. Jay puts us down in public to the point where he once ridiculed my husband for his new clothes in front of his entire baseball team, and all the parents. He seems to think that he is the authority on what is in fashion for everyone. My husband is afraid of him to a point. This young man gets away with everything. He does not understand consequences because he can do no wrong. I use to talk to him until I was blue in the face, but he was always right, and I was stupid. When he was in grade school I insisted one day he go back in to get his homework, and he flat told me he wasn't going to do it. I made him go, and he gave me attitude, and was rude to everyone along the way. Once we got into the classroom he threw his backpack in the air, then kicked it across the room. Then he became rude to his teacher. I was beyond humiliated and angry with him for this. I could not believe my eyes. Once we walked out he asked me to get him a milkshake. I then told him how I felt about his behavior, and he was going to be punished for it, he just said "Why, I didn't do anything wrong." He was angry with me for the very idea that he did something wrong, and that I told him I would not reward that behavior with a milkshake. He did the same type of thing to his mother a few weeks later, and she brought him over with a milkshake, but informed me that we are to ground him for the rest of the week. He has ruined Christmas, and all other holidays by being unthankful and flat out disrespectful. There are times when he can be really sweet, and thoughtful, but he can't seem to make it through the day without a cruel comment, or a put down to someone. He is very critical, opinionated, and judgmental. He saw a therapist for a time, but his mother would constantly call him to ask him what was said, or be there with him, we were confident that she manipulated and sabotoged the whole thing. Both my husband and I feel like we are being abused in our own home, and we have given up trying to help him see it, because he lives in "his own world." it is nowhere near reality. How do we get through this? It's not like we can just kick him out of our lives. We do love him, but how do we help him? I guess the better question is how do we cope with behavior we can't change?

Beth McHugh (12962) 22 Sep 2008 03:48 PM

Hi Bittersweet, some of your step-son's behaviors are normal teenage behavior and some suggest that he may be in some emotional turmoil. The latter he may not even be able to express or be consciously aware of himself. Continue to set firm boundaries as you are doing, reinforcing that certain behaviors are not permitted and rewarding him when he engages normally with you. However, it might be wise to consult a psychologist who specializes in family therapy so you, your husband, step-son and his mother can talk to the therapist, both singly and as a group to try to sort out what is driving this behavior. I know he has had counseling before but if it is instigated by you and your husband, you my get better results. Best wishes, Beth

annette23 (11) 27 Oct 2008 02:24 AM

Hello Beth and Everyone; Glad I found this forum, could always use another perspective in dealing with our life's interesting twists. My husband is a widower. We met several years after his wife died. We've been married almost five years and I adopted his son, who is the light of my life. His former wife died of cancer. My issue is his former in-laws, my son's family. My son's grandfather didn't speak to his daughter the last month of her life because they did not drive him to the airport (my husband and son were sick, so was his wife needless to say and the in-laws had already driven 4 hours, the airport was only 20 more minutes.) The grandmother missed her daughter's last hours because she was getting her hair done-she knew she was coming back for a funeral...A year later they sued my husband for shared custody and child support-like a divorce, that was not successful but needless to say it dragged him through unnecessary anguish. The interactions go on, all conversations revolve around them, withheld christmas presents unless they get to see him on the date...alot of "how everything looks" and no normal loving interactions. We have tried hard to be civil, and kept most of the really damaging information from my son, but he is getting older-under 15- and he happens to be a very perceptive kid-wants to be a psychiatrist- he understands the distorted behaviors aren't normal, but it still frustrates him. At this point he talks/sees them for their benefit- not his (his words) They continue to try to manipulate him-which he gets and dislikes- my question is-how do I protect him? At what point is enough-enough. And, is this journey good for his development or destructive? I truly believe his grandmother has NPD, I'm a physician, so I'm not totally unfamiliar with the diagnosis. His grandfather is very controlling, and has a gay-porn-too close for comfort with little boys- behavior history. We have never allowed unsupervised visits. His grandfather is supposedly sick (a common manipulative theme with them over the last 7 years, but even manipulative people get sick eventually) How much do we go out of our way for them to see him. I am tempted to just go back for the funeral-which my son is O.K. with. The less than kind part of me feels they don't deserve any more, and I am concerned that the drama they like so much (they have told us they are coming and then cancelled six times in the last week alone) is harmful to my son. Where do we go with this, or do we just disengage and deal with the death if and when it happens?

Beth McHugh (12962) 27 Oct 2008 01:23 PM

Hi Annette, there are several things going for you in this situation. The main one is that you, your husband and your son are all aware that there is a problem, and what the problem is. You obviously discuss it as well. The second is that you do not live in close proximity to this couple. Disengaging is ok if no-one feels any guilt about the situation. How is your husband on this issue? If there is guilt, whether there is disengagemnt or not, then counseling would be good. Your son is lucky in that he has not allowed himself to be "adopted" by this couple and manipulated into loving them -- a situation which is quite common. He is of an age too that he will naturally disengage from his grandparents for a time anyway, and it appears that they have not been able to offer him much in terms of emotioanl closeness anyway, therefore after his own personal disengagement process, he is unlikely to wan to go back to them emotionally. Have you and your husband discussed the possibility of not seeing them again and how this would feel? Beth

annette23 (11) 28 Oct 2008 09:04 AM

Thank you for your insight. My husband does not have alot of guilt involving them, only the good memories of his own grandparents , which makes him sad about the situation. Our son does not want to deal with them any more this fall, and he understands that if his grandfather really is terminal, his only opportunity will be at the wake, which he is totally O.K. with (this tells me much). We've discussed letting them know that we'll call them when our son is ready to see them, and for them not to call. They seem to have a six month cycle, they lay low, life gets back to normal, pleasant, and just as we're back into the swing of life, they pop up with much drama and manipulation. If we just told them we'd never see them again, all three of us would be fine with it emotionally, and I don't think they could force a visit at his age, but the law-suit thing may rear its ugly head again, they like control and they want their own way. We think if we leave a door open for next year, with our initiating the contact, we may have a better chance of being rid of them, and maybe if our son decides he wants a visit or a call, it's available. This will send them into a tail-spin as well, we may need to block their numbers to keep them from intruding. But we can stand firm, the last straw was during their last conversation, when they heard something from him they didn't like,(for example, they invited themselves to stay at our home, they have never even been to our home, and our son said that he didn't mean to be unkind, but he didn't think that would be work) they would pretend that they heard it a different way and pretended he was unclear and they were suddenly hard of hearing, making him need to repeat himself with information that they didn't like, a form of inimidation and control really. Our son picked up on it immediately and was angry at the attempted manipulation. He tries so hard to be kind, And we feel at this point we need to step in and protect him from their emotional cruelty. It is hard to do this kindly with people who don't take no for an answer. We come across as harsh when we stand firm against their behaviors, but sometimes I think this is O.K. It has been years, and the stress is at times too intrusive at this point.

Beth McHugh (12962) 01 Nov 2008 04:09 PM

Hi Annette, although this situation is stressful and will continue to be so, I do think that as a family you are handling it well. You will have to weigh up the pros and cons of formally ending the relationship versus keeping them at a controlled distance. As they do not live close by and visits are minimal, the latter might be preferable particularly at your son's age. But again, this would have to be a decision you all agree on. Although you say you feel harsh at times, when people do not respect you and you stand up for yourself that is the first name you will be allotted. If you three stick together, talk and agree on how to handle each situation as it arises, I believe you are doing the best you can without shutting the door completely. Best wishes, Beth

stoicjello (5) 13 Nov 2008 04:43 PM

Hi Beth,

I come from such a disturbed salad of familial dynsfunction that it's hard for me to put one finger on one single issue, but since this is about narcissism, here's my story. I'm the daughter of narcisstic parents (both diagnosed by proxy with my mother being the principle mental perpetrator). Consequently, I'm a needy, co-dependent borderline personality who took to my most recent boyfriend--a total narcissist like fish to water.

As symptomatic with my issues, I'm a pleaser and when he found me, he knew immediately that I'd be the perfect foil for his arrogance. At first, he was charming...knight/shiny armor/white house and the consummate theif of hearts. Told me everything my little needy heart and soul needed to hear. Then, the tide changed. It became all about him...his needs; HE was busy. HIS schedule was all that matter and of course, he has/had a job that sounded glorious and extremely important but was impossible to prove.

We broke up once because he was "sp busy" and he said I demanded too much of his time. All I wanted was a semblance of consideration. This was a long distance relationship, by the way...and that allowed him all the freedom from real intimacy that he needed. ANd I guess, that after all the horrific, unresolved relationships in my life, that suited me just fine, too.

We got back together and he controlled the relationship even more and it wasn't until a few weeks ago that I got fed up and wise to who and what he was that I (in the simplest of terms) "busted him" and I think that infuriated that I called him on who and what he was. We've since had little contact and about a week ago, he determined that my confrontation was a ":psychotic episode" and that he'll be gracious enough to forgive for that infraction, BUT ONE MORE AND HE'S GONE!!!

Trust me the door is open. I'm ignoring him and back in therapy and pryaing to God and even those I don't believe in that he'll go away. I'm regaining my power back but I hate that he'll just troll around looking for another victim.

My question is about the way he started ignoring me: is that normal behavior for a narcisistic when he or she is found out? Is the fact that we're not talking, that I'm not taking his calls or calling or e-mailing in desperate attempts to get him back making him realize he's losing power and when a narcisist loses power, he also loses interest? Is that the case with these types?

Thanks so much for your time and your incredibly enlightening articles.

Beth McHugh (12962) 16 Nov 2008 02:18 PM

Hi stoicjello (love the name!), if your ex is a sufferer of NPD, your revelation about his behavior means that you are saying to him that you will not play the game anymore. He doesn't see it as a game, of course, he sees it as a way of life. Therefore you are no longer of any "use" to him if he can't get what he wants from you. Some narcissists may turn on the charm at this point to see if you will be drawn back in, but if there is no "suitable" result, then they will move onto a more accommodating person. They may even feel a form of rejection from you, due to the fragile nature of their egos, and in order to cope with that, may actively take a dislike to you and denigrate you to others. Interesting that he told you that you had a "psychotic episode" -- this is his way of dealing with the chink you found in his armor. Hope this helps, Beth

charlieX (5) 28 Dec 2008 03:32 AM

Hi Beth, I am 45, married with 3 kids. My middle child is my only son, 17 years of age. He has been a complicated person from day one. J as I will call him was demanding and played mind games even as early as the potty training days. Always testing how far he could go. We had trouble with him at school with academic work. Always struggled with reading and often played the class clown. He was always on the go and we had confirmed mild ADD when he was about 9 but we didn't want medication just understand why he acted the way he did. My two daughters ( 20 and 15 ) are compassionate and considerate but J has always been very good at putting himself first. He always liked winning and would prefer cheating to loosing when he was younger. He has a tendency to put others down in all areas where he wants to be the best. He has always found it hard to apologise and to admit that he's at fault. He's even been found lying when we have witnessed and know the truth. He can not loose face, he'd rather die. As he got into high school the performance got even worse. The last few years he has only had ' fags ' for teachers. He really doesn't get the fact that he ends up in trouble with all these teachers. We have done our best over the years to ground him and to take away priviledges as punishment and it has been hard work. As my son entered puberty it slowly got worse. It feels as if our son plays games with us. He seems to lack empathy. He's selfish ( my daughers also have a teenage kind of selfishness but he's something else. ) He wants the best of everything for himself. He's very good at manipulating you and somehow get his way and you don't even know how he did it. We have both become quite cynical in that when he sometimes do nice things for you, you wonder what his agenda is. Most of the time he does have a motive. He wants something from you. He tries to put it over his younger sister and we feel we have to be a step ahead of him all the time. He used to suck up to his older sister but she's overseas at the moment. 18 mths ago he found his first girlfriend a really sweet girl that we all took to straight away. I have been worried how she would cope. My husband, by coincidence overheard them on the phone. J was manipulative and somehow got his girlfriend to say sorry to him when if fact it probably should have been the other way around. She broke of with him recently and he was heartbroken. They got back together but two weeks ago she broke it off again. He spent $ 300 on an ipod for a xmas present. He has always been good at spending money on his girlfriend as if that's how he shows his love. But she won't get back with him and so now he hates her and rubbishes her. He can be sweet and warm at times but we can't trust that it's genuine. He left school in y 10 and is now working in construction which I am very pleased about. He is always short to us at home, condescending a lot of the times, inconsiderate and if you ask him to do something he will question that and you'd better be prepared. I know for a fact that deep down he has no self worth. Today he told me that he would like to show who he really is but he doesn't know how. That was after I actually told him a bit about narcissistic behaviour. We have our 'heart to heart' occasionally but it's always at the back of my mind that it may mean absolutey nothing to him. It may just be a game to make him look good in mum's eyes. When he's out and about he can be very, very charming and he has leader qualities and charm. But usually we don't get to reap much of that. It is very hard to get the message across on how he really is. I have checked the criteria for NPD and he has I think 5 of them. J and his dad have had trouble getting along for a very long time. My husband have become disillusioned and very sad about their relationship. J very often make fun of his dad in front of his mates as well as his dads. My husband has always been good at spending time with our kids with surfing, skating and other activities. My husband and I have different ideas about how to discipline and that has been an ongoing disagreement. I think in a way that J's dad has let his son down in that he himself always had trouble admitting being at fault and apologising to his kids. My husband also lack empathy as does his mum but he's more straighforward and not like my son who is so manipulative and calculating. I don't know what to do and was it wrong to finally tell my son about the possibility of NPD. Kind Regards CharlieX

Beth McHugh (12962) 31 Dec 2008 08:59 PM

Hi CharlieX, have you thought of the possibility of having family counseling? Although many people have trouble admitting they are wrong or saying sorry, there is a "normal" incidence of this and a more abnormal one. It us hard to know if your son is manipulating even when he is being nice but you have experienced several incidences of this being the case. So although you husband has trouble apologizing this will not automatically turn your son into a narcissist. There is the natural adolescent narcissism to take into account as well, and it can be hard at times to tell this normal selfish behavior from the more concerning form of NPD, particularly if your son is not particularly emotionally mature for his age. So perhaps thinking about the possibility of family counseling for all of you as a unit might be worth considering. Best wishes, Beth

cagedspirit (5) 04 Jan 2009 07:17 AM

Hi, I am so glad I found this site. All my life I have known that my dad's behaviour was wrong but I didn't realise that I had hidden the real me away in order to cope with being around him until recently. I have been suffering panic attacks, low self esteem, no confidence and have no idea who the real me is. I thought this was all of my own making until I moved out of my parents home and realised just how controlling my father is. My mum puts up with his behaviour because, as she puts it, she would have no where else to go, but at the age of 27, I now realise that I have created a false self. I don't show the real me, am a people pleaser, hate being centre of attention if I have done well and cannot be happy unless everyone else is happy. I bought a fantastic book callled Children of the Self Absorbed an it helped alot. I decided enough was enough and that I wouold confront my dad but he wouldn't talk to me. Its like he knows its gonna be about him, and shuts down the doors. So I wrote him a letter explaining how I feel and saying that I think both him and me could be narcisstic (unfortunatley I do display narcisstic traits as I have no idea who I am-but I realise this and will be seeing a therapist). He didn't speak to me for 7 days and then I rang my mum and he came on the phone all normal again saying he understands that I have a problem with him. He said he hadn't read my letter (which just shows that he doesn't care for my feelings and also doesn't want to read the truth). Rather that blaming him as I realise this gets us know where, I told him that I can't be myself around him, and I need to change the way I react to any bad behaviour toward me, careful not to say his bad behaviour. Whether I should have done this or not as I have have given him more ammunition remains to be seen, but I said he doesn't respect my boundaries. His reply was that he doesn't know what they are. How can I create healthy boundaries without causing further arguements? Whenever I say how I feel, he ignores me and says I have rejected him. He has now taken to sending me texts to try and get contact rather than the contstant phone calls which I have stopped. I can't bear to be around him but I feel guilty if I don't do as he wants. I need help!!

HRmgr (10) 12 Jan 2009 01:03 PM

Dealing with a Narcissistic Sister In Law. I am glad I found this Site.

I have a sister in law for over 25 years. She is classic NPD. She used to run her father down and then he passed away unexpectedly - she was all upset because "they were just getting to know each other." (he was working for free in her business). After her father passed away - she turned on her brother (my husband). At family gatherings she makes negative comments about him to everyone. She even took my son's wife (my daughter-in-law) aside and in an emotional break down confided how much her brother hates her - This was at Thanksgiving. (I believe this stems from my husband's lack of "proper" admiration of her or just the fact that he did not want to move the Thanksgiving Dinner to her house). I dread being around her. You never know if she is going to be civil or on her Thrown.

I am thinking of telling her straight out, one on one.....that if she says another negative thing about my husband or toward my family I am going to start making it known to the family (or whoever is around) her past/current behaviors. For example: If the conversation is about someone in the hospital - I will talk about the time she rotated boyfriends in and out of the hospital while her father was in ICU and her brother and mother waited in the Chapel for 3 days. If the conversation is about college - I will add to the story by telling how she got her degree major general business and then lied to husband and friends saying she majored in Finance. If we are talking about babies, I can tell about the time we picked a baby name for our son, told the family and she insisted that we pick something else because she planned to use that name, someday. (she had a 10 mo. baby boy and had been telling people she couldn't have any more kids). She has supplied me with an abundance of conversation grabbers on almost ever topic over the years. She has never been called on the carpet for any of it. Do you think she would back off - with the threat of it???? I just want her to be civil during the times we have to be around her. I have long ago given up any desire to be part of "her family."

Any advice would help!!! I stay away from her has much as possible, keep the conversations light.

Beth McHugh (12962) 12 Jan 2009 04:48 PM

Hi HRmgr, your best defense against your SIL is to act as a team with your husband How does he feel about her behaviors? You can't change her, only the way you and your husband act towards her. Sure, you can show her up if you like, particularly if it is over an important issue that you feel strongly about but be prepared for an argument! It ends up coming down to deciding how much contact you want with this woman, and again that depends on your husband's attitude towards her. Keeping a low profile and accepting that this is how she is is the easiest way to deal with her unless of course she says or does anything potentially harmful. Best wishes, Beth

HRmgr (10) 13 Jan 2009 04:22 PM

Beth: You are absolutely correct. The bottom line is she cares only about her self, she will never change. (period) In the end it won't matter what I say, she lives in her own world. She and her brother are not close, nor is she close to our kids. And at this point she has caused it all her self, no point in me stepping out there and giving her someone else to blame. I can honestly say " I 've been nothing but nice." (distant but nice) Thanks!!!

Beth McHugh (12962) 13 Jan 2009 04:38 PM

No problem!

Beth McHugh (12962) 15 Jan 2009 05:23 PM

Hi Caged Spirit, first of all you are not a narcissist! Narissists don't question whether they could be narcissists, hence you are not one, although many adult children of narcissists believe they could be simply by wanting and asking for things that are perfectly reasonable. Tey have been trined that way by the parent. The other personality traits you mention fit in with the traits of a child of a narcissist. You will need to set strong boundaries and it doesn't matter if your father doesn't knwo what they are, he will work it out when he hears the word "no". You will also need to let go of the idea of having a loving father that you deserve, and deal with the grief of not having a real loving father. The other thing is that he will never change if he is, in fact, a real narcissist. These are all difficult concepts to get your head around and will take time. If you find down the track that you need help you can contact me at http://youronlinecounselor.com

daughterofevil (5) 16 Mar 2009 08:12 PM

Hi I'm the daughter of a narcisstic father and a very passive mother. Dad didn't like the way I stood up to him so I became the household bully magnet which has also been an issue in my working life. Mum was unable to defend me; I also kept the heat off her. She has very little respect for me despite my being the most responsible of my siblings!

I also have a nasty narcissistics sister; I cut off contact with her a couple of years ago and am glad.

I'm 42 and don't want these people to ruin the rest of my life. Prefer to enjoy time with my loving partner and mates.

I get angry about the abuse I have suffered within my family and cutting contact feels right. It saddens me, but I am a realist.

Beth McHugh (12962) 17 Mar 2009 04:51 PM

Hi daughterofevil, at least you have recognized what you are dealing with and have taken steps to minimise the damage caused by both of your parents. Best wishes, Beth

stuck317 (5) 26 Mar 2009 12:45 PM

I am a 30 year old mother of one. My father was an alcoholic diagnosed with bipolar disorder shortly before his death in 2003. He was also posthumously diagnosed with NPD by proxy through my mother's counseling career pursuits. I think all of us (my mother and siblings) have developed issues (I think I have Anxiety and Avoidance and my brother is a rescuer/co-dependent) because of my dad's illnesses. I think my sister may have developed NPD. She started out as pretty normal kid. When she became a middle school student she was bullied and assaulted by another child. After she was removed from school to begin homeschooling her personality started to change. She became interested in material things. In her late teens and early 20's she started becoming more and more interested in fancy cookware and clothing and her image became center focus (and in my opinion her image still is center focus) When things were chaotic at home she would make a point to carry on as if our family was no different than anyone elses. She seemed buoyant and to be living a separate life from the rest of us with little evidence that she was suffering from the excessive drinking and tirades of our father. I also recall her being very possessive with her friends. If a friend of hers was hitting it off with me, she would intercept and make sure the attention was directed on her, even to the point of stepping in between with her back to me. What I thought was just your typical sibling rivalry I am starting to believe was the onset of NPD. She also married a man who has placed her on a pedestal from day one. I have witnessed her make fun of him in front of the family and he just laughs it off. Lately she has become angry with me over me asking questions about her political beliefs on a social networking site and this caused her to remove me from her friends list. That didn't seem to me like an appropriate or reasonable response, especially because there was no warning. I tried to get an explanation as to why she was upset and she was very cryptic and evasive. To get our mother on her side she made up that I said that I felt sorry for her (future) kids. Since she deleted my comments I have no way to defend myself against this accusation. When she did open up about her perspective on the incident she never mentioned this thing that I allegedly said. If that was the thing that bothered her I would assume that would be one of the first things she would mention to me when expressing how she felt about it. After being confronted by our grandmother as to why she won't agree to work on our relationship, her response was that she can't call me on the phone because I might be drunk when she calls. I know this was an attempt to make me look bad to my Southern Baptist grandmother as well as a cop-out. I do drink but people that know me well (my husband for one) know that what she said was a gross exaggeration. She's also said that she needs a break from me which is a foreign idea to me as far as family relations. I don't see family as having a pause button and I am suspicious that this is an attempt to rid herself of me. She's trying to stay buddies with my husband on this social website and I'm not really sure why? I am at an empass. My family (with the exception of my husband) thinks that I should handle her with kid gloves and give her the pedestal treatment for the sake of peace. I am aware that this is the unfortunate pattern in our family history, but making this dynamic okay is something I am very uneasy about. I want very much to raise my child and live the rest of my life in a way that will discontinue this cycle of debilitating dysfunction with co-dependence and narcissism. How do I get myself to a place where I can resist the feeling that I have to cater to my sister without feeling guilt? How can I get to a place where I know longer think about it all the time and where it doesn't make me angry? How do I handle someone who wants a fake relationship with me when we are face to face in a family gathering but really has no real love or interest in me? Is distance the right thing and if so, how much? How much contact should I allow my child to have if my sister should ever take an interest in spending time with her niece? How do I ease the tension? I used to think family was the one environment where I could be myself, but I feel that because of this NPD my sister has I have to pretend to love someone that I don't even really know and mind my p's and q's OR else! I just don't know how to handle myself in a family gathering setting anymore. I have decided to be true to myself and not participate in enabling her NPD is what I want and that is a controversial idea so far, so now what? Thanks for reading.

Beth McHugh (12962) 26 Mar 2009 04:30 PM

Hi Stuck, there are so many issues that need addressing, not that this situation is not capable of being solved to your satisfaction. Have you thought about having therapy in order to sort out your feelings and beliefs about the situation? Best wishes, Beth

magpie88 (10) 06 Apr 2009 01:25 PM

At the age of 33, I find myself trying to learn as much as I can about narcissists in order to deal with my father.

When my parents split up, he could not deal with the fact that my mother left him. Instead, he took to calling her "it", told my brother and I that she "left us" & aired all of her dirty laundry in an attempt to keep us from having a relationship with her. In the meantime,he stalked her (he admitted he let the air out of her tires when he stopped by her condo one night), called her so much at work she was afraid she would be fired, wrote her letter after letter, etc. During one pre-separation fight, she fled the house & got in her car and took off. He immediately got in his car and followed her. They were both speeding, it was summertime and all of the neighbors were outside and witnessed everything. I was in high school at the time and my brother was in junior high. I remember crying, wondering if something was going to happen to one of them and if I should call the police.

After their divorce, my father's need for attention and praise focused on my brother and I. Lucky for me, I was in college and dodged most of his insanity. However, when I graduated and moved back home, he began harrassing me. He told me that he earned my degree for me (he paid for whatever my scholarships and grants did not cover). At one point, I was serious with a guy and we were considering marriage. My father wasn't having any of it, and told me that I wasn't going to get married so long as he was single.

He dated one woman for a while and then she split up with him. He again stalked her, even trying to get her family members to turn against her. He was convinced that my mother's friends told her to divorce him, and again he was convinced that this woman's family had told her not to continue in a relationship with him.

When he was dating this woman he would taunt me and tell me that her daughters had said they liked my bedroom furniture, and that he was going to give it to them. He would ask me if I would ever consider referring to this woman (who I didn't really have a relationship with -- I don't think she liked me and he even told me he didn't want my brother and I talking to her when she was over because he didn't get to spend enough 'alone time' with her) as 'mom'.

They were planning on getting married at one point before they split up, and he bragged constantly about how much the engagment ring cost, talked about how big and grand the ceremony was going to be and told my brother and I to inform my mother that he was getting remarried.

I was finally able to move out of his house after much turmoil. He never wanted me to move out because by then his ex-girlfriend had split up with him. My father refused to talk to me for a week before I moved, attempted to thwart my move-out date, and to this day still tells me that renting is a waste of money and that I should move in with him.

My brother, who is 30 years old, still lives with my father and basically has no friends, no significant other and no life. He has never moved out of my father's home, not even for a semester away at school and my father does not think it is odd for a healthy 30 year old man to live with one of his parents and not have a life. He is the "golden child" because he replenishes my father's narcissistic supply and I am the black sheep because I have a life of my own. It is almost as if I am physically hurting my father because I am independent and do not rely on him for money, a roof over my head or anything like that.

I live with my boyfriend now and we are planning on getting married later this year. My father was initially receptive to the idea (I think this was only because I told him this after not speaking to him for about 3 years), but now he has started playing games like the following: he told me he would pay for my wedding dress, then gave me a check for an amount that was not the cost of the dress for xmas, then asked me what I had spent the money on. He never asks how my boyfriend (who I have been dating for 4 yrs) is doing and refuses to acknowledge marriage plans. I believe he thinks my boyfriend (who really doesn't know him very well at all) has turned me against him, the way his ex-wife's friends turned her against him (in his mind, this was not reality) or his ex-gf's family turned her against him (again, a figment of his imagination). I feel very depressed at times that he can't just be happy for me. Don't most normal parents want their adult children to be happy & independent?

I just feel so drained by him on a daily basis. I regret getting back into contact with him after almost 3 years of not speaking and wish he would just disappear. I don't wish ill of him but if he can't be supportive of my life then I don't want to have to interact with him. I feel like I'm having a panic attack every time he calls. I almost never pick up the phone when he calls and when I do return his calls, he gets on me about how I don't care and don't return his calls quickly enough. He tells me that no one on earth has ever done as much for me as he has, and I basically owe him my entire life because of that.

I wish narcissists had an idea of the kind of pain and discomfort they inflict on people.

Beth McHugh (12962) 06 Apr 2009 06:12 PM

Hi Magpie, sadly they have little idea of the pain and demands they put on their loved ones as they have little or no insight into the feelings and indeed real existence of others as separate beings. Sounds like some firmer boundaries are needed between y and your father, otherwise he will spoil not only your wedding but your immediate future. You have done well in identifying and minimizing the pian he inflicts but if its getting to panic stations again then you will need to take the situation firmly back in hand even if that means limiting contact with him again. Best wishes, Beth

magpie88 (10) 08 Apr 2009 10:25 AM

Thanks, Beth! I have found your articles extremely helpful for dealing with narcissism & learning how to protect myself.

Beth McHugh (12962) 07 Jun 2009 09:15 PM

In order to further assist adult survivors of narcissistic parents I have provided additional resources in order to help break down the loneliness associated with this problem. By accessing my website at http://youronlinecounselor.com you will be able to participate in a new forum. Best wishes, Beth